Sorcerer spell level


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I can't remember where I read it, but I remember somewhere about adding spells know level earlier. Basically just shifting the spell know table up one level. It would then look like this...

Spoiler:

1st level: 5 2
2nd level: 5 3
3rd level: 6 3 1
4th level: 6 4 2
5th level: 7 4 2 1
etc...

If you think it's maybe too much to just do it, what if it was the Bloodlike Arcana for the warped arcane bloodline or something.


Looks like "home-brew", because if this is core there wouldn't be a singular sorcerer without it.


Yes, if you wish to do that, just "bump" the sorcerer spell progression by one level.


I dislike this suggestion every time I come across it. I suppose YMMV, but I say, if you want spell progression on odd levels, play a wizard.

Sorcerer bloodline powers quite adequately round out the sorcerer class, in my opinion. And the 6:5 (if you specialize, 6:4 if you don't) top spell capacity at each level (we can ignore bonus spells in this comparison, since we can safely assume the base stat for casting will be bumped up equally by both wizards and sorcerers) is nothing to sneeze at...

So, if you want to be truly versatile as a wizard and avoid specializing to not have opposition schools, a sorcerer of any bloodline has 150% maximum spell capacity at any given level of spells.

And yet, people continue to say sorcerers should get equal level progression for gaining new levels of spells.

I disagree.


One alternative is to move the spells per day up a row at level 3, but not change the spells known. So at level 3, you can cast 3 second level spells per day (not counting attribute bonus) but you have to use your first level spells since you don't know any second level spells to cast.


Dilvias wrote:
One alternative is to move the spells per day up a row at level 3, but not change the spells known. So at level 3, you can cast 3 second level spells per day (not counting attribute bonus) but you have to use your first level spells since you don't know any second level spells to cast.

(necromancy)

i actually like this suggestion. those extra slots can also be used for metamagic, playing to the sorcerer's strength.

(our 3rd level sorcerer can now magic missile at 200 feet or summon monster for 6 rounds, or play a totally stealthy cantrip...)

i feel like this is a good compromise over the divided camp.


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I just let them use the spells known and spells per day table as if they were a level higher.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
Sorcerer bloodline powers quite adequately round out the sorcerer class, in my opinion. And the 6:5 (if you specialize, 6:4 if you don't) top spell capacity at each level (we can ignore bonus spells in this comparison, since we can safely assume the base stat for casting will be bumped up equally by both wizards and sorcerers) is nothing to sneeze at...

First of all, you cannot ignore the bonus spells since they change the ratio. Secondly, most wizards are going to specialize. Thirdly, while your reasoning may hold up at very high levels, it's just completely untrue at low levels. Sorcerers don't have a big advantage in class features at low levels, and their total number of spell slots don't actually exceed the wizard at odd levels.

Take the example of a 3rd level specialist wizard versus a 3rd level Sorcerer (presuming 20 int/cha respectively). The Sorcerer has 7 first level spell slots. The wizard has 5 first level spell slots and 3 second level spell slots for a total of 8. The Sorcerer gets a bloodline power at the 3rd level, but those spell slot comparisons are so egregiously in favor of the wizard that they can't possibly make up the difference.

The Wizard puts the Sorcerer to shame again at the 5th level. A 5th level sorcerer has 8 first level spells and 5 second level spells for a total of 13. The 5th level specialist wizard has 6 first level spells, 4 second level spells, and 3 third level spells for a total of 14. The Wizard, however, got a bonus feat at the 5th level while the Sorcerer didn't gain any new bloodline power. Overall it's not quite as bad as the 3rd level, but the wizard is still a lot better.

At about level 13, I think your position starts to make more sense; the Sorcerer has more class features to show off and there are already enough spell levels in play that the addition of a new one isn't quite as big a jump. Still, there's no particular reason why the wizard should have this advantage at odd levels, and at the lower levels the comparison is pretty stark.


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Remember that sorcerers get one more spell per day than wizards (and an extra first level one at low levels). I think it would be a fair trade to grant a sorcerer 1 spell known and 1 spell per day at 1 level earlier than normally allowed, but reduce his spells per day for all existing levels except cantrips by -1.

This would make a suitable sorcerer "archetype" I think.

Peet


I'd prefer some core way to give sorcerers more spells known in general. I can get the level lag a bit with spontaneous casters picking everything they need on the fly over their wizard counterparts, but does this mean they should get held back in spell levels and number of spells? If a wizard can copy a new spell into his spellbook, why shouldn't a sorcerer learn and memorize a new spell in a similar fashion?

Either sorcerers should get a level bump or this option. My two cents.

Scarab Sages

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A proposal I made in the Beta testing, was that the bloodline spell of each spell level should be gained earlier. Therefore, the level 2 spell would be gained at caster level 4, when their other second-level spells were learned.
Alternatively, they could access it at caster level 3 (but only usable once per day, until they learned to use it freely at level 4).

The bloodline represents the core competency and focus of the sorcerer, so it makes little sense for it to be delayed until after she has learned her other spells.
If spell X2, X3, X4,...X9 are the spells that are so embedded in the racial DNA, that all sorcerers of bloodline X automatically unlock their formulae, shouldn't they be the first spells learned of the associated spell level?

What we currently have is a bizarre situation in which the sorcerer is forced to avoid choosing her bloodline, signature spells, until they are among the last spells picked of that spell level. Before then, they must tiptoe around them, pick other spells, including some with little or no thematic relevance.

How does that imply a focus, or speciality?


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Snorter,
at our game table, if our sorcerer picks a bloodline spell early, when it actually comes up he gets to pick another spell in it's stead. because yeah, that is silly. i betcha lots of folks do this.

so, what if we keep Spells Known as is, bump up Spells Per Day one level, and (per your suggestion) grant the bloodline spells early (at 1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17) to coincide exactly with the Per Day bump?

So, a 3rd level Aberrant sorcerer knows 5 cantrips, 3 first level spells, two bloodline spells (Enlarge Person and See Invisibility), and can cast 6 first level spells/day and 3 second level spells/day - whereby using his 3 second-level per/day slots he may either cast See Invisibility or a first level spell with (or without) a +1 level metamagic feat applied.


aceDiamond wrote:

I'd prefer some core way to give sorcerers more spells known in general. I can get the level lag a bit with spontaneous casters picking everything they need on the fly over their wizard counterparts, but does this mean they should get held back in spell levels and number of spells? If a wizard can copy a new spell into his spellbook, why shouldn't a sorcerer learn and memorize a new spell in a similar fashion?

Either sorcerers should get a level bump or this option. My two cents.

Ask and ye shall receive

Alternatively, a Half Elf Sorcerer who knows Paragon Surge has for the price of 1 3rd level spell, an extra spell known chosen at the time of casting.


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Snorter wrote:
A proposal I made in the Beta testing, was that the bloodline spell of each spell level should be gained earlier. Therefore, the level 2 spell would be gained at caster level 4, when their other second-level spells were learned.

Seconded, thirded and fourthed.

I can live with the Sorcerer getting his spells a level late. However, the variety of spells when reaching a new level leaves much to be desired.

Every single six-level progression class gets two new spells known when they reach a new spell level.

The Oracle gets access to three new spells known (one from her spell progression, one from her mystery, plus a cure or Inflict spell).

The Sorcerer is the only class that gets one.

Granting these Bloodline spells a level early (or two levels early, in case of the first level spell), at the very moment the Sorcerer comes into the power level to actually cast them would both be thematically appropriate (these spells are a cornerstone of his arcane definition, after all) and remove the 'single spell to spam' effect the Sorcerer is suffering from at the time.

Scarab Sages

Alitan wrote:

I dislike this suggestion every time I come across it. I suppose YMMV, but I say, if you want spell progression on odd levels, play a wizard.

Sorcerer bloodline powers quite adequately round out the sorcerer class, in my opinion.

While these can be very nice, they are cancelled/equalled out by the wizard's school bonus powers.

If you want to count these as 'spell slots/day', you'd have to do the same for the wizard.


Eh, no, I can't agree with that. On average, wizard school powers don't hold a candle to sorcerer bloodlines, just as cleric domain powers generally don't measure up to oracle mysteries.

Wizard discoveries, well, there are one or two pretty good ones.


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I can't believe I haven't closed this window in months. But yeah, I still feel strongly that it's a buzzkill to make a sorcerer wait an extra level for spells, and then an extra level on top of that to get a spell the player chose a bloodline for.


I have introduced the above suggestion (that the bloodline spell is gained 1 level earlier). The minor issue here is that it makes levels 5, 11 and 17 almost utterly dead (no BAB or save boost, 1 extra spell/day, no class features except a couple of new spells known). So at those levels, the sorcerer gains a +2 bonus in the bloodline bonus skill. After all, with 2 skill points and Int as a dump stat, most bloodline skills (usually knowledges) really need the help.


Alitan wrote:
I dislike this suggestion every time I come across it. I suppose YMMV, but I say, if you want spell progression on odd levels, play a wizard.

I hate prepared casters, love sorcerers and I heartily agree with you.

Generally when building a Sorcerer I make use of their limited spell selection to make them focused or specialized around a particular theme - as I believe was intended. But to the OP's question, one of my favorite characters to run is a Human Sorcerer with the Arcane bloodline - or another sort of Sorcerer with Eldritch Heritage feats for the Arcane bloodline. Between the Extra Arcana gained by the bloodline and the Human favored class option, you really do gain access to a huge number of spells which you can cast as and when you want in any combination to meet any scenario that crops up - AND you are one of the most versatile meta-magic casters possible.


Alitan wrote:

I dislike this suggestion every time I come across it. I suppose YMMV, but I say, if you want spell progression on odd levels, play a wizard.

Sorcerer bloodline powers quite adequately round out the sorcerer class, in my opinion. And the 6:5 (if you specialize, 6:4 if you don't) top spell capacity at each level (we can ignore bonus spells in this comparison, since we can safely assume the base stat for casting will be bumped up equally by both wizards and sorcerers) is nothing to sneeze at...

So, if you want to be truly versatile as a wizard and avoid specializing to not have opposition schools, a sorcerer of any bloodline has 150% maximum spell capacity at any given level of spells.

And yet, people continue to say sorcerers should get equal level progression for gaining new levels of spells.

I disagree.

Except on the odd levels beyond 1st, when wizards generally have the same number of spells per day.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Overall, the spell lag that the sorcerer has vs. the Wizard and other "Vancian" casters is a 3.5 limitation put in (in 3.0) to offset the superior mechanics of what was later termed "spontaneous casting" that was introduced with the sorcerer class in the 3.0 PHB.

This was done instead of actually revamping the magic casting system to use the mechanic of not forgetting spells after casting for all casters in the game. It was feared that either it was to powerful for wizards in particular and able to be abused by other classes as well, or that the old dinosaur of "Vancian Casting" was not ready to be changed and accepted by the Gamers that support the game.

There is no real reason to change the progression unless you actually think the wizard should be a viable alternative to the Sorcerer.

That being said, any rules that back slide this is not going to grant earlier access to higher level spells.

Races like Ifrit grant a way to cast spells at a higher base level (one above the sorcerer level of the character) but do not grant higher level spell access.

Some feats grant the same effect, but not the earlier access.

Bloodlines give you spells at certain levels, typically when you gain access to the casting of that level of the given spells.

So, the short answer. No.

They have access to the higher spell levels at the class levels indicated for a purpose. That it is a flawed purpose is immaterial, as to keep a basket of eggs, you need to avoid cracking the old ones.


* Give the sorcerer his bloodline spell a level early (like the oracle)

* Give the sorcerer D8 and average BAB

I feel it fits more with a character that doesn't really need to study anything to cast magic.


I copy paste something I wrote and posted quite some time ago to give the sorcerer some of it's lost shine back:

1st__Bloodline Power, Bloodline Spell (1st), Eschew Materials, Cantrips
2nd__Bloodline Feat
3rd__Bloodline Power, Bloodline Spell (2nd)
4th__Eldritch Focus +1
5th__Bloodline Spell (3rd)
6th__Bloodline Feat
7th__Bloodline Spell (4th)
8th__Eldritch Focus +2
9th__Bloodline Power, Bloodline Spell (5th)
10th_Bloodline Feat
11th_Bloodline Spell (6th)
12th_Eldritch Focus +3
13th_Bloodline Spell (7th)
14th_Bloodline Feat
15th_Bloodline Power, Bloodline Spell (8th)
16th_Eldritch Focus +4
17th_Bloodline Spell (9th)
18th_Bloodline Feat
19th_Eldritch Scion
20th_Bloodline Power, Eldritch Focus +5

Changes to the base sorcerer from the CRB :

- Bloodline spells are gained much earlier, all except the 1st level spell are gained a level before you gain the actual spell level, this prevents you from not picking that thematically appropriate spell the first chance you get. (see next point)

- You get a single bonus spell slot you can use to cast any bloodline spell you know, if you use it to cast a spell of lower level than your highest level sorcerer spell known you can apply meta magic feats to raise it's level up to your highest level spell known, though you still have to use a full round action to cast it if you do.

- The sorcerer gains a bloodline feat at 2nd level and every 4 levels after 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18 (instead of 7, 13 and 19). Add all metamagic feats and skill focus in the sorcerer's bloodline skill to the possible feats you can select.

- At 4th level, the sorcerer gains Eldritch Focus which gives a +1 concentration checks when casting sorcerer spells and on skill checks with the sorcerer's bloodline class skill. This bonus increases by +1 at 8th level and every 4 levels after.

- At 19th level, you gain Eldritch Scion as a class ability. This allows the casting of any bloodline spell as if cast with still and silent spell meta magic feats without increasing casting time or spell level.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --
EDIT: These are meant to be small adjustments to make the sorcerer a bit more interesting compared to the wizard, for a bit more of a powerboost. You can also:

* Change the spells to 0 at the lvl the bloodline spell is gained allowing for bonus spells through high ability scores, so you can use it for your bloodline spell or metamagic spells of a lower level.

* Get a bonus spellslot usable for your bloodline spell at the level you get to add it to your spells known (a bit like domain spells), this should replace the single bonus spellslot.


IMO, a simple 'fix' that shouldn't throw balance out of whack is to just advance the bloodline spells known down a level. The other spontaneous caster gets them the moment they can cast them. The witch doesn't, but starts the level with 2 spells known anyways.


Grey Lensman wrote:
IMO, a simple 'fix' that shouldn't throw balance out of whack is to just advance the bloodline spells known down a level. The other spontaneous caster gets them the moment they can cast them. The witch doesn't, but starts the level with 2 spells known anyways.

This is definitely a good fix - simple, elegant and thematically appropriate.


Wiggz wrote:
Grey Lensman wrote:
IMO, a simple 'fix' that shouldn't throw balance out of whack is to just advance the bloodline spells known down a level. The other spontaneous caster gets them the moment they can cast them. The witch doesn't, but starts the level with 2 spells known anyways.
This is definitely a good fix - simple, elegant and thematically appropriate.

Were one of my players to pick a sorcerer, I'd houserule this. Unfortunately, I don't think it'll ever see play in PFS games, even if it would make sense.


aceDiamond wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
Grey Lensman wrote:
IMO, a simple 'fix' that shouldn't throw balance out of whack is to just advance the bloodline spells known down a level. The other spontaneous caster gets them the moment they can cast them. The witch doesn't, but starts the level with 2 spells known anyways.
This is definitely a good fix - simple, elegant and thematically appropriate.
Were one of my players to pick a sorcerer, I'd houserule this. Unfortunately, I don't think it'll ever see play in PFS games, even if it would make sense.

Sadly, but I am inclined to think that paizo agrees. Seeing as they did things differently for the oracle. If they were to do a rewrite of the CRB they would almost certainly change that imo.


There aren't many blasting spells that oracles can get, are there? Because the sheer number of spells they can learn does tempt me to play one at some point.


aceDiamond wrote:
There aren't many blasting spells that oracles can get, are there? Because the sheer number of spells they can learn does tempt me to play one at some point.

Depends on the combination of curse and mystery. The Flame mystery is an obvious (if easily resisted) choice, the heavens oracle actually gets some blasting, as do the waves and wind options (via choosing the right revelations). Add in the blackened curse from Blood of Angels and you'll have a decent selection, especially when you boost it with the right spells from the cleric list. For the most versatile blasting option, I'd suggest heavens with the blackened curse.


Seems like sorcerers get a lot of tough calls, now that I look over things. After adding bonus spells from high attributes, they don't have very many more slots than wizards. Plus, everything is much more expensive. A scroll and the materials to copy a spell into a spellbooks are a drop in the bucket compared to a Page of Spell Knowledge, so you've got it much harder to gain new spells. A Runestone of Power is twice as expensive as a Pearl of Power, so wizards close the slot gap easier as well. And I'm still going to harp about level delay in spells because WHY?!


aceDiamond wrote:
Seems like sorcerers get a lot of tough calls, now that I look over things. After adding bonus spells from high attributes, they don't have very many more slots than wizards. Plus, everything is much more expensive. A scroll and the materials to copy a spell into a spellbooks are a drop in the bucket compared to a Page of Spell Knowledge, so you've got it much harder to gain new spells. A Runestone of Power is twice as expensive as a Pearl of Power, so wizards close the slot gap easier as well. And I'm still going to harp about level delay in spells because WHY?!

though the runestone of power an power a spell as part of the casting, a pearl of power is a standard action to recall a spell.

Note that favored class bonus for humans allows you to expand your spell selection considerably, just take the toughness feat to compensate.


IMO the benefit and drawback of the Sorcerer is that spell selection is strategic rather than tactical. You must plan to maximize the value of your spells known in building the character, rather than maximizing value of spells memorized on the eve of a specific adventure milestone.

What do they get for this investment? The ability to:
>Select any spell equal or lower than the spell slot being used
>Apply metamagic on the fly
>Spam more spells per day

I'm surprised the Human alternate Favored Class Option from the Advanced Races guide hasn't been mentioned:
Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast. (Oops - ninja'd.)

A human sorcerer with this FCO can wind up with a significantly large number of spells known.

Wizard Casting at 20th:
4 of each level per day plus caster stat bonus
+ 1 spell from bonded object (if chosen)

Sorcerer Castings at 20th:
6 of each level per day plus caster stat bonus

Wizard Spells Known at 20th: All

Sorcerer Spells Known at 20th:
0 / 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 level
9 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 3 count
- / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 Bloodline additions
3 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 3 / - FCO additions

And then there are pages of spell knowledge, runestones of power, and pearls of power. I don't mind the runestones costing double the pearls, as you're adding more castings to a class with more flexibility within casting.

Overall, I think while Sorcerer suffers a gap at 3rd and 5th especially, the classes general flexibility is worth that slightly lower advancement (even without the human FCO).


RegUS PatOff wrote:


I'm surprised the Human alternate Favored Class Option from the Advanced Races guide hasn't been mentioned:
Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast. (Oops - ninja'd.)

A human sorcerer with this FCO can wind up with a significantly large number of spells known.

Scroll down on that page. Wizards get the same benefit. So do witches, inquisitors, and bards.


MagusJanus wrote:
RegUS PatOff wrote:


I'm surprised the Human alternate Favored Class Option from the Advanced Races guide hasn't been mentioned:
Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast. (Oops - ninja'd.)

A human sorcerer with this FCO can wind up with a significantly large number of spells known.

Scroll down on that page. Wizards get the same benefit. So do witches, inquisitors, and bards.

No wizards do not gain the same benefit. The get a similar benefit but for sorcerers who can cast any spell known at any time the benefit is much bigger than it is for a wizard.


Abraham spalding wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
RegUS PatOff wrote:


I'm surprised the Human alternate Favored Class Option from the Advanced Races guide hasn't been mentioned:
Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast. (Oops - ninja'd.)

A human sorcerer with this FCO can wind up with a significantly large number of spells known.

Scroll down on that page. Wizards get the same benefit. So do witches, inquisitors, and bards.
No wizards do not gain the same benefit. The get a similar benefit but for sorcerers who can cast any spell known at any time the benefit is much bigger than it is for a wizard.

I could point out ways that such isn't entirely true, but I really don't want to get into an in-depth discussion of feats right now.

Here are the benefits:

Quote:
Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast.
Quote:
Wizard: Add one spell from the wizard spell list to the wizard's spellbook. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the wizard can cast.

It's the same benefit. Any advantage beyond that is advantage that already comes with the class. For the actual racial benefit, both classes get the same exact reward; you are just focusing on what they can do with the reward after.

I also noticed you ignore the other spellcasters I mentioned who also get that benefit.


It a similar ability yes and they both get extra spells known yes, but the sorcerer can make better use of the ability from a day to day basis.

Where the wizard has unlimited spells known he has limited spells available per day constrained by his spell slots.

The sorcerer is not constrained by this -- any spell known he can cast provided he has spell slots of that level or higher available.

It would be more accurate to say it would be the same benefit if the wizard could spontaneously switch out a spell prepared for the spell he knows through his favored class ability.

This same point stands for the bard and inquisitor and works against the witch as well.

The class doesn't matter in this regard -- only if it is a spontaneous caster or a prepared caster.

Spontaneous casters get more use out of this ability.


So you're arguing that an increase in spells known for spontaneous casters is different than an increase in spells known for prepared casters because of how their core mechanics work for actually using those spells?

Or, let's put this as an analogy... You have two apples. One is red. One is green. You're arguing that they're not the same type of fruit because one gets mashed into apple sauce and the other gets turned into cider.

How spellcasters utilize the reward is irrelevant to if the reward is the same for the spellcasters.

In this case, the benefit of the racial is an increase in spells known. Whether or not one class gets more out of it than another is an entirely different argument than whether or not they get the same benefit from taking a race's alternate favorite class bonus.


My point is, regardless of how useful spontaneous is over prepared spellcasting, it irks me that the only way to add to spells known other than the human favored class bonus is a Page of Spell Knowledge. It's not like you can learn new spells relatively cheaply like a wizard can.


It is different precisely because of how their core mechanics differ.

This isn't apple to apple it is apple to limes.

Yes they are both fruit and yes they are both nutritious but their taste, method of being eaten and what sort of nutrients you gain from each are different as is the way you prepare them.

You wouldn't make an apple pie from oranges and you wouldn't make key lime pies out of apples.


aceDiamond wrote:
My point is, regardless of how useful spontaneous is over prepared spellcasting, it irks me that the only way to add to spells known other than the human favored class bonus is a Page of Spell Knowledge. It's not like you can learn new spells relatively cheaply like a wizard can.

There is also a feat you can take.

But a large part of the reason it isn't as easy for a sorcerer is because of how they cast. It makes a huge difference.


Part of the problem when relying upon the idea of it being how they cast that is why one should judge the benefit as being entirely different for the two classes is the actual mechanics of it.

A wizard can take a spell one level lower, plop a metamagic feat on it, and have it immediately more powerful when they cast it without altering the casting time; that is simply a benefit of the class, and one of the reasons why they can cast two powerful spells every round reliably at higher levels.

Sorcerers do not have that benefit; they require specific builds to get that ability at all and for most of their spellcasting career it will be limited. Meaning that while they can cast the spell more often, it will be less powerful for them. This can bite them hard in scenarios where a lot of power is needed (like, say, fighting a dragon, powerful demon, etc.) and in scenarios where laying down a lot of firepower over a wide area is needed (fighting the minions of the demon, countering a zombie horde, bar brawls, etc.). So while they can use the spell more often and without preparation, they get the problem that the spell is less powerful and may not have the oomph needed to actually do the job.

Of course, all of that is irrelevant. Here's what's relevant:

Any developer looking to balance this is probably going to look at it and go, "Let's see... Sorcerers learn one spell per level, wizards learn one spell per level... Same reward! Looks balanced." If they were not, I bet that the two classes would have a different reward, especially considering how easy it is for wizards to achieve knowing every spell they possibly can.

Thus, why it is I originally said they get the same benefit.

Oh, and to note... Human sorcerer with alternative racial favorite class bonus means a max of 31 extra spells at level 20 from racial bonuses and feats. That's up into wizard levels of spells known.


MagusJanus wrote:

Of course, all of that is irrelevant. Here's what's relevant:

Any developer looking to balance this is probably going to look at it and go, "Let's see... Sorcerers learn one spell per level, wizards learn one spell per level... Same reward! Looks balanced." If they were not, I bet that the two classes would have a different reward, especially considering how easy it is for wizards to achieve knowing every spell they possibly can.

Thus, why it is I originally said they get the same benefit.

I think the developers noticed that a sorcerer has some room for a power boost compared to the wizard rather.

sorcerer's tend to be quite good dealing with metamagic, increasing the casting time is not usually a big deal. Metamagic can add a lot of flexibility for spontaneous casters in particular, wizards often just end up preparing an inferior spell.


I'm kind of amazed that the sorc's 3rd-level spell speed bump didn't get smoothed out in the transition from 3.5 to PF. It's one of the many minor nerfs that the original 3e team thought would be necessary to keep the sorc out of ZOMG UBERPOWERD territory. But I guess backward compatibility trumps all.

...Except when it doesn't.


Tequila Sunrise wrote:

I'm kind of amazed that the sorc's 3rd-level spell speed bump didn't get smoothed out in the transition from 3.5 to PF. It's one of the many minor nerfs that the original 3e team thought would be necessary to keep the sorc out of ZOMG UBERPOWERD territory. But I guess backward compatibility trumps all.

...Except when it doesn't.

I was similary amazed that they made the wizard able to cast 6th-9th lvl spells a level earlier in the transition to 3.X, trashed the fighter's pretty decent save progression and gave everyone multiple attacks according to "BAB" ?!?

I would have given all full casters progression similar to the sorcerer, but I guess they felt spellcasters and definately would have kept thac0, I mean seriously...


AnnoyingOrange wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:

Of course, all of that is irrelevant. Here's what's relevant:

Any developer looking to balance this is probably going to look at it and go, "Let's see... Sorcerers learn one spell per level, wizards learn one spell per level... Same reward! Looks balanced." If they were not, I bet that the two classes would have a different reward, especially considering how easy it is for wizards to achieve knowing every spell they possibly can.

Thus, why it is I originally said they get the same benefit.

I think the developers noticed that a sorcerer has some room for a power boost compared to the wizard rather.

sorcerer's tend to be quite good dealing with metamagic, increasing the casting time is not usually a big deal. Metamagic can add a lot of flexibility for spontaneous casters in particular, wizards often just end up preparing an inferior spell.

Not arguing against either of those. Sorcerers have gotten quite the boost with things like cross-blooded.

But I am saying that I don't think the developers were looking at it in regards to alternate racial favorite class bonuses.


AnnoyingOrange wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:

I'm kind of amazed that the sorc's 3rd-level spell speed bump didn't get smoothed out in the transition from 3.5 to PF. It's one of the many minor nerfs that the original 3e team thought would be necessary to keep the sorc out of ZOMG UBERPOWERD territory. But I guess backward compatibility trumps all.

...Except when it doesn't.

I was similary amazed that they made the wizard able to cast 6th-9th lvl spells a level earlier in the transition to 3.X, trashed the fighter's pretty decent save progression and gave everyone multiple attacks according to "BAB" ?!?

I would have given all full casters progression similar to the sorcerer, but I guess they felt spellcasters and definately would have kept thac0, I mean seriously...

Well, I see where the 3e guys were going: they changed a lot of things in the name of consistency and standardization. Which is an admirable goal, IMO. And to be fair, getting 6th-9th level spells a level earlier and getting iterative attacks aren't what makes casters crazy powerful.

But you have a point with the saves vs. DCs math. That could have used a more serious look!


Saves, especially bad saves, need to be invested into in order to stay relevant at higher levels. Basically you just need some magic items and/or spells to help out. Cloaks of Resistance and Greater Heroisms can do wonders.


aceDiamond wrote:
Saves, especially bad saves, need to be invested into in order to stay relevant at higher levels. Basically you just need some magic items and/or spells to help out. Cloaks of Resistance and Greater Heroisms can do wonders.

Taking level boosts to stats and standard items into account (such as cloaks of resistance), it appears that a good save is supposed to have about a 50% success rate. If the good save happens to be boosted by a character's primary stat (like a rogue's Reflex save), the odds should be better. A poor save's odds should go from worse at 1st level to worst at 20th.

The problem with casters is spells, and the system mastery they create: Most gamers would probably agree that the above odds are reasonable if we're talking about, say, a fireball. But what about powerful save-or-lose spells like dominate person? I'd say that the odds are heavily imbalanced in such a case.

IMO, the problem is that the game has one standardized formula for spell DCs, and a cornucopia of spells that range from noob trap to mediocre to crazy powerful. What's reasonable for one is crazy for another.


I'm not sure if that math is right regarding good saves working 50% of the time, but maybe a few spells could be reworked. Though, for the majority of the time, I find myself wanting more as a sorcerer.

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