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1v1 my monk didn't have any problems with orcs.
Of course my monk was a drunken master of many styles of the sacred mountain with crane style maxed at level 2 so that might have played into it some...
Also did you take into account the, "Stand back and let them die." Approach? Basically you get them to negative hp then simply go full defensive or keep moving away after fighting defensively until they fall over from being dumb enough to keep swinging at you as they lose another hit point each round.
Also it's looking to me like your non-human fighters dropped about the best feats possible each time.
However I do agree that I don't think Paizo correctly took into account what an 18 strength and an extra 12 hit points can do.
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Orcs are amongst the toughest fight for CR I can think of. Only thing worse is an orc barbarian 1, as opposed to warrior 1.
More hp, to hit, damage, and saves, for slight bump in CR? 1/3 to 1/2, iirc. Nasty!
Of course, that is why they're still around, and why adventurers are needed.
In my campaign, I use "orc berserkers" pretty frequently. They are CR 1/4 orc warriors who fight with sticks and stones. They are the beefiest of the beefiest, with very little mental prowess. They are born, bred, and raised to be monsters. They charge into battle naked (figuratively, usually) swinging their clubs or throwing their rocks, and most fight to the death because dying in battle is considered the second most sacred death that they could have (dying of old age after a lifetime of battle being the first).
They have no profession other than killing. They rely on their more civilized kin to provide for them. However, they are such a boon to an orc tribe's military power that they are supported without question. Here's the statistics on them (3 point buy). The last time my party encountered them (at 1st level no less) they wiped the floor with the orcs (good use of colorspray, flanking, focus firing, etc). Then again, my players are a pretty hearty bunch when it comes to dealing with stuff. :3
Orc Berserker CR 1/4 (100 XP)
Medium humanoid (orc) warrior 1
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception -2
== DEFENSES ============================================================
AC 10, touch 10, flat 10
Hp 8 (1d10+3); Defensive Abilities Ferocity
Fort +4, Ref +0, Will -3
== OFFENSES ============================================================
Melee club +5* (1d6+10)*
Ranged club +3 (1d6+5)
== STATISTICS ==========================================================
Str 20, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 5, Wis 5, Cha 5
BAB +1; CMB +6; CMD 16
Feats Power Attack
Skills Linguistics -2 (common)
Languages Common, Orc
Orcs are amongst the toughest fight for CR I can think of. (...)
Of course, that is why they're still around, and why adventurers are needed.
hehe :-)
Orc Berserker
There's no way in all the hells that this is a CR 1/4. A single attack from either melee or ranged has a very good chance of one-shotting any starting character, even including martial ones.
Kittens and kobolds are CR 1/4.
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Orc BerserkerThere's no way in all the hells that this is a CR 1/4. A single attack from either melee or ranged has a very good chance of one-shotting any starting character, even including martial ones.
Kittens and kobolds are CR 1/4.
Last I checked, not including NPC gear is -1 CR, for a CR 1/4. Orcs are just nasty. But my PCs can handle it. At 1st level they actually wiped the floor with these guys. I think they cleared through about 9 of them before anyone got knocked down. Of course, they were in a keep, and did stuff like blocking doors, tag-teaming, and using alchemical weapons.
Most of the martials are sporting an 18 AC at 1st level with no shield, and a 20 AC with a shield easily (chainmail and +2 or better dex = AC 18). The party's sorcerer got happy with colorspray and the like.
That being said, I totally agree with you that kobolds are also CR 1/4. Just as deadly too. Four kobolds firebomb a PC? Deader than a flaming doornail. Let's see...1st level PC, 4 kobolds, assuming all the small-sized dexterity boosted warriors can chuck a ranged touch-AC hitting attack and land it, well that's 4d6 fire damage on round 1, 4 damage to everyone nearby, and another 4d6 damage on round two. That's about 28 fire damage...
Sounds about right to me. :3
EDIT: Kobolds also have much higher ACs. They're small (+1 size), quick (+1 dex), scaled (+1 natural), and that's before you count armor or shields (easily +3 to +5). Getcha some little kobolds with wooden shields, studded leather, and an alchemist fire, and you have little ambush attackers who bomb the snot out of some poor fool on the surprise round, evade attacks with their 18 AC, and then run off to hide and do it again.
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At which point I compare their damage output and defenses to the CR chart, and readjust their CR to something higher. They're no longer CR 1/4. You're not supposed to 'game' CR and one-up the players by squeezing as much firepower into as low a CR as possible.
At which point I compare their damage output and defenses to the CR chart, and readjust their CR to something higher. They're no longer CR 1/4. You're not supposed to 'game' CR and one-up the players by squeezing as much firepower into as low a CR as possible.
I'm not. That's pretty much run of the mill tactics for kobolds. Fight dirty, then run away. Kobolds get "NPC gear" be default and are still CR 1/4. That's just the way they work. Reminds me of Baldur's Gate I or Eye of the Beholder where your party gets slaughtered by groups of random kobolds using ranged weapons. Cursed kobolds...
Also, the CR chart is little more than a helpful method of eyeballing. As an actual measuring stick, it's kind of a joke. :P
Better a joke than a purposeful TPK that offers little reward even if beaten.
Yeah, I usually couple "tougher/nastier for their listed CR" with "above standard wealth/treasure" to make the ramped up difficulty worth it. You know, like with dragons, who have pretty much always been intentionally placed at a slightly CR than they should be to ensure they're some of the toughest fights of a given CR.
As for the OP...but you can trade it for +1 luck on all saves! :)
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I don't get the thread title. Isn't Epidemiology the branch of medical science concerned with the occurrence, transmission, and control of epidemic diseases?
Better a joke than a purposeful TPK that offers little reward even if beaten.
Purposeful TPK? Heh, hardly. I've never intentionally killed anyone. In fact, my PCs actually enjoy fighting kobolds. Most kobold dungeons are filled with lots of traps too, and I naturally include treasures appropriate for the traps. Since most traps on their own aren't that deadly, it works pretty good. Of course, I don't promise that the kobolds won't use those traps to their advantage (I mentioned something about some kobolds with crossbows, a barrel of oil, a pit trap, and an unsuspecting barbarian at least once before on these boards).
I want my PCs to win. 90% of the fun in winning, however, is the challenge to do so. ^.^
Better a joke than a purposeful TPK that offers little reward even if beaten.Purposeful TPK? Heh, hardly. I've never intentionally killed anyone. In fact, my PCs actually enjoy fighting kobolds. Most kobold dungeons are filled with lots of traps too, and I naturally include treasures appropriate for the traps. Since most traps on their own aren't that deadly, it works pretty good. Of course, I don't promise that the kobolds won't use those traps to their advantage (I mentioned something about some kobolds with crossbows, a barrel of oil, a pit trap, and an unsuspecting barbarian at least once before on these boards).
I want my PCs to win. 90% of the fun in winning, however, is the challenge to do so. ^.^
But by setting them at CR 1/4, That's XP banditry there...
Put a dozen kobolds against a dozen of those orcs and see who wins...
11 dmg versus level 1s??? Sorry Ashiel that's just wrong...
At which point I compare their damage output and defenses to the CR chart, and readjust their CR to something higher. They're no longer CR 1/4. You're not supposed to 'game' CR and one-up the players by squeezing as much firepower into as low a CR as possible.I'm not. That's pretty much run of the mill tactics for kobolds. Fight dirty, then run away. Kobolds get "NPC gear" be default and are still CR 1/4. That's just the way they work. Reminds me of Baldur's Gate I or Eye of the Beholder where your party gets slaughtered by groups of random kobolds using ranged weapons. Cursed kobolds...
Also, the CR chart is little more than a helpful method of eyeballing. As an actual measuring stick, it's kind of a joke. :P
It is kind of gaming CR. It reminds me of using "non-associated" class levels on monsters to make them under CR'd
Anyone remember Mind Flayer monks?
Better a joke than a purposeful TPK that offers little reward even if beaten.Purposeful TPK? Heh, hardly. I've never intentionally killed anyone. In fact, my PCs actually enjoy fighting kobolds. Most kobold dungeons are filled with lots of traps too, and I naturally include treasures appropriate for the traps. Since most traps on their own aren't that deadly, it works pretty good. Of course, I don't promise that the kobolds won't use those traps to their advantage (I mentioned something about some kobolds with crossbows, a barrel of oil, a pit trap, and an unsuspecting barbarian at least once before on these boards).
I want my PCs to win. 90% of the fun in winning, however, is the challenge to do so. ^.^
But by setting them at CR 1/4, That's XP banditry there...
Put a dozen kobolds against a dozen of those orcs and see who wins...
11 dmg versus level 1s??? Sorry Ashiel that's just wrong...
My money would be on the kobolds, honestly. Mostly since the kobolds would not play fairly. Due to the orcs' pathetic AC, I'm pretty sure the kobolds would dismantle them pretty hard.
For example, the encounter would go like this...
Kobolds lurking in wait (Perception DC 20, 15 base, +5 for distance)
Orcs wander within the desired range. Kobolds take their surprise round. The kobolds fire their crossbows at orc #1. Once they've dealt enough damage to drop him to 0 HP, they shoot at the next guy.
Next turn, the kobolds flee. The orcs give chase, but end up stepping on the caltrops that the kobolds set behind them. The orcs suffer damage and end up at 1/2 movement speed. The battle is now over, because the kobolds will kite the orcs and focus fire them down.
It's probably worth noting that I would rarely use such NPCs against newbies. Most newbies wouldn't understand how to handle it, I don't think. Better to screw them over with goblins first. Now goblins are bad. +10 Stealth modifiers completely untrained, high dexterity, no damage penalty, and 1d4 or 1d6 bow damage? Darkvision on top of it? God help you. XD
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It's probably worth noting that I would rarely use such NPCs against newbies. Most newbies wouldn't understand how to handle it, I don't think. Better to screw them over with goblins first. Now goblins are bad. +10 Stealth modifiers completely untrained, high dexterity, no damage penalty, and 1d4 or 1d6 bow damage? Darkvision on top of it? God help you. XD
Goblin Rogue = even worse.
Standard Gobby = AC 16, 6 HP, Attack +2 melee /+4 ranged, Stealth +10, CR 1/3
Rogue Gobby = AC 18 (without armor), 9 hp, Attack +2 melee / +6 ranged, Stealth +12 (with sneak attack, so likely doing 2d6 or 1d4+1d6) and all at a lovely CR 1/2
Quite the nasty little surprise to pop out of a closet/dark tunnel, eh?
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Goblin Rogue = even worse.
Standard Gobby = AC 16, 6 HP, Attack +2 melee /+4 ranged, Stealth +10, CR 1/3
Rogue Gobby = AC 18 (without armor), 9 hp, Attack +2 melee / +6 ranged, Stealth +12 (with sneak attack, so likely doing 2d6 or 1d4+1d6) and all at a lovely CR 1/2
Quite the nasty little surprise to pop out of a closet/dark tunnel, eh?
Uh, maybe he's just there to sell you a copy of The Galtic Worker, didja ever think of that, you racist?
I don't think my party has faced orcs since we switched over to Pathfinder, but we've got a half-orc PC and Orc Ferocity has saved his ass, I'd guess, at least a half-dozen times in seven levels.
Whoze youze callin' racist, ya dirty skell?
Getz backz to workz b'forez I bustz ya wit my 'slicah, ya big-eared rock-chewah!
:)
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I'm on my fifteen-minute break, boss. You don't like it? Take it up with the union.
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I think the point I'm beating around the bush about is that enemies are often pretty nasty, even for their given CR range. Statistically, sure. They're about CR 1/4, 1/3, or 1/2, depending on the enemy. The monster creation chart is kind of a joke (it has CR 1/2 creatures listed as having about 10 HP, 12 AC, and a high attack of +1, and about 4 damage, but any way you slice it a hobgoblin fighter with a greatsword is probably much closer to 12-15 HP, with a high attack around +4, for 10 damage, and an AC around 18. The creation chart doesn't really take into account the equipment or abilities a creature has that can help it.
Personally, I'd rather fight 2 hobgoblin fighters than 3 goblin warriors than 4 kobold warriors. Mostly because all of them get NPC gears, and can work as a team. Kobolds mean not having a number advantage, and may even mean being horribly outnumbered (if the encounter is challenging, hard, or god forbid epic). Of course, the hobgoblins probably aren't pushovers either. All they have to do is quaff a potion of enlarge person and it's a scary time in the old mountain region.
These little guys are kind of problematic too in their natural environments. Most monsters are assumed to be encountered on their terms. Most creatures you find in forests will be suited for fighting in forests, and most creatures sporting darkvision will be fighting in the dark. That's just kind of the way it is. This game is hard, and also very rewarding. There's a reason not just everyone is an adventurer. Adventurers die. They go off to clear the tunnels of kobolds and never return. They're cut down by marauding orcs. Made pin-cushins by goblins. Eaten by wolves.
Tieflings are brutal to parties of humans, halflings, half-elves, and elves. Your standard tieflings have darkvision, darkness as a SLA, and sneak attack +1. If you encounter a pair of these guys, you're in big trouble. Surprise round = lights out plus an initial sneak attack. Now everyone is blind and can't see. Not being able to see means that you move at 1/2 speed, are flat-footed, and enemies get a +2 to hit you, and moving around requires constant acrobatics checks. This IS going to hurt. Even if you have a resident darkvision race such as Dwarf, Drow, or Orc in the party, it becomes a contest of that guy versus two rogues who are more than happy to flank with each other or set him on fire.
A Tiger is a death sentence to most 4th level PCs. It has a speed of 40 ft., pounce, a +11 stealth in its natural environment, low-light vision, scent, and a very nasty attack routine. The tiger picks up the PCs' scent and follows them along very easily. When they least expect it, it's creeping up on them. Now it's got a +11 Stealth but has another +4 for distance from it's kill-zone, making the DC to notice it 25. Now your average 4th level PC is going to have, maybe 4 ranks, +3 class skill, +2 ability or a +9. Pretty poor odds of noticing the tiger. During the surprise round, the Tiger charges one of the PCs and pounces.
Now your average d10 class with a +2 Con has about 34.5 HP at 4th level. Your average d6 class with the same Con has about 24 HP at 4th. The Tiger pounces with a +13 to hit with its two claws, +11 with its bite, and two rake attacks at +13 to hit. Assuming that the martial is wearing chainmail and carrying a heavy shield, his AC is 18. The DPR for the initial surprise round is 39.95 vs the d10 martial character with AC 18. Against the poor d6 class, such as a wizard or sorcerer with no armor (or mage armor), the DPR is about 51.6 or so. The martial is in the negatives or the caster is dead.
Adventuring is a Bad Idea (TM).
Uhm, you do realize that the CR increases for the side with favorable conditions, right? All your post proves is that some people still don't understand how to make encounters and put a proper CR on them.My money would be on the kobolds, honestly. Mostly since the kobolds would not play fairly. Due to the orcs' pathetic AC, I'm pretty sure the kobolds would dismantle them pretty hard.
For example, the encounter would go like this...
Kobolds lurking in wait (Perception DC 20, 15 base, +5 for distance)
Orcs wander within the desired range. Kobolds take their surprise round. The kobolds fire their crossbows at orc #1. Once they've dealt enough damage to drop him to 0 HP, they shoot at the next guy.Next turn, the kobolds flee. The orcs give chase, but end up stepping on the caltrops that the kobolds set behind them. The orcs suffer damage and end up at 1/2 movement speed. The battle is now over, because the kobolds will kite the orcs and focus fire them down.
Wow, that's rich. Using your own abilities and equipment to your advantage means a +1 CR. Look dude, I don't think you're the one who needs to be poking fun at other peoples' encounters here. Have you actually looked at the example they use for "favorable conditions"?
Favorable Terrain for the PCs: An encounter against a monster that's out of its favored element (like a yeti encountered in a sweltering cave with lava, or an enormous dragon encountered in a tiny room) gives the PCs an advantage. Build the encounter as normal, but when you award experience for the encounter, do so as if the encounter were one CR lower than its actual CR.
Unfavorable Terrain for the PCs: Monsters are designed with the assumption that they are encountered in their favored terrain—encountering a water-breathing aboleth in an underwater area does not increase the CR for that encounter, even though none of the PCs breathe water. If, on the other hand, the terrain impacts the encounter significantly (such as an encounter against a creature with blindsight in an area that suppresses all light), you can, at your option, increase the effective XP award as if the encounter's CR were one higher.
I don't think I'm doing anything near these sorts of "favorable conditions". A blindsight creature in an are that suppresses all light? Fuu...um...no!? I mean, I'll totally do mean things like have the PCs encounter a group of darklings led by a darkfolk (which is cruel, and unusual, and I will probably be answering for it when I die), but actually stacking the deck in their favor and saying "Oh by the way, there's a permanent heightened deeper darkness spell in the area, good luck with that would be a bit evil even for me. :P
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I don't normally agree with Ashiel so strongly, but I have to on this issue. I like my encounters tough, and my group does, too. Now, we may go about it different ways (I used APL+2 as a baseline, usually higher), but the end result is the same: Difficult encounters. There's no gaming being done here (my party's level by encounters, not exp, so it's a moot point), just DM's prepping encounters of suitable difficulty for their players.
So what would the mortality rate of first level fighters be if you changed Humans into Half-Orcs, who also have the Orc Ferocity racial trait?
I don't mind difficult encounters. I hate difficult encounters when the GM is being dishonest and calling them easy encounters just because the CR adds up to a lower number than it should.
I don't mind difficult encounters. I hate difficult encounters when the GM is being dishonest and calling them easy encounters just because the CR adds up to a lower number than it should.
All encounters are easy. All encounters are hard. Think on this.
Trying to kill an orc with a fighter is like banging a square peg into a round hole. It is pointless.
Orcs are a low CR because they basically can't resist Will attacks. Just put them to sleep or something. They don't do well against that.
"All encounters are easy. All encounters are hard. Think on this."
I think Cranewings is on the right track. Having the right tool for the job is a good idea. A screwdriver works great for screwing in screws, and can be used to hammer a nail in a pinch, but makes a terrible microwave oven. :P
1v1 my monk didn't have any problems with orcs.
Of course my monk was a drunken master of many styles of the sacred mountain with crane style maxed at level 2 so that might have played into it some...
Also did you take into account the, "Stand back and let them die." Approach? Basically you get them to negative hp then simply go full defensive or keep moving away after fighting defensively until they fall over from being dumb enough to keep swinging at you as they lose another hit point each round.
Also it's looking to me like your non-human fighters dropped about the best feats possible each time.
However I do agree that I don't think Paizo correctly took into account what an 18 strength and an extra 12 hit points can do.
Skirmish to victory, bleed them out.
Count me as another voice saying that in a case of orcs vs kobolds, each played properly, the kobolds are probably the more effective/scary. Orcs are tough and powerfully strong, but also lazy and very stupid. Kobolds on the other hand...
Kobold rogues are very hard to detect and they make fantastic trappers.
The main thing I get here check you need CR before and after advance any monster. In LG I ran intro mod that 4 plain ork warrior. I ran this mod easy 30 times kill some each and every time and had 6 TPK .
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It is all down to tactics, as many have pointed out. The problem is as an individual character you can't fill all roles, so as a party you may have nobdy filling the save or suck role. In that instance you are stuck when faced with orcs with ferocity, or at least standing toe to toe with them.
The parties I gm for are always martially heavy. The pc's get frustrated if you put creatures that don't stand and fight them and target their weak will saves...
It sounds like many use tactics of mosters to increase the difficulty of an encounter. Any creature with an average int stat should be more difficult to defeat if it has time to prepare.
The same kobolds as Ashiel mentioned, if encountered "randomly" could easily be killed in the first round if they lost initiative. It all depends how your PC's meet the mosters, if they are suprised and if the mosters have time to prepair...
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Average dc for a caster dropping Save or Suck spells at 1st level is 14-15. An optimized caster has a dc of 16-18, depending on class/feats/spell selection.
Remember, dc is 10+spell level+casting stat modifier.
Also note: orc ferocity allows those martial swings of 6 damage to be soaked and NOT drop those orcs.
Most offensive casters i see have a dc of 17-19 at level 1 (at least +4 stat +2 special or +5 stat +1 focus, often +5 base +2 special +1 focus).
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Orcs are a classic low level brute. The addition of Ferocity has made them even less hospitable to the martial character. With the risk of sounding reductionist, brutes are strongest in toe to toe and you come out worst fighting this way. Ogres, trolls etc would all equate the same way i imagine if you were to crunch the numbers and ignor tactics.
Looking at your blog you seem to be highlighting that a 1st level fighter should be able to beat an orc most times with a good selection of feats. Would you say the same was true of similar challenges? 1 orc is an Easy encounter for a party of 1st level characters. Its the same kind of challenge as putting a 4th level fighter against an ogre or a 6th level fighter against a troll.
Monsters have different roles and allow different characters to shine. I agree with your statement "GMs who want to field orcs as cannon fodder against their PCs should judge numbers carefully", because at level 1 you are fragile and an orc does a lot of damage for a CR 1/3 creature. You might be facing up to 6 of them as a level 1 character in a party, but thats an "Epic" encounter, with a high chance of a TPK.
As you point out the addition of ferocity means that you potentially have to do an extra 12hp damage. However as others have pointed out, the orc is staggered, so remaining in toe to toe combat with it is not the best idea. You will probably have support, can take a defensive action or use some other tactic.
Number crunching has its place, and is helpful when making character choices. Your "different types of fighter" blog backs up what most of the discussion boards state, that finesse fighters aren't as powerful as other types. Does that mean they shouldn't be played? You can use your high dex for other tactics that won't show up in the number crunching statistics. Consider how stealthy a finesse halfling fighter could be.
Yep, you want to focus on archery, mobility and better use of terrain. Going toe to toe can be bad, same with fighting ogres when you are level 3-4.
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Number crunching has its place, and is helpful when making character choices. Your "different types of fighter" blog backs up what most of the discussion boards state, that finesse fighters aren't as powerful as other types. Does that mean they shouldn't be played? You can use your high dex for other tactics that won't show up in the number crunching statistics. Consider how stealthy a finesse halfling fighter could be.
Side-note, but it actually only shows this to be true at 1st level. Finesse fighters benefit a lot more than Str based ones from level and especially gear advancement (Dervish Dance or an Agile Weapon being one of the first break points, along with Mithral Chain Shirts [or Breastplates, with low enough Dex] and +2 Dex items).
Personally, I think they're still not gonna be quite as good as the classic Str build, but the gap certainly narrows a lot, and might even reverse in some ways depending on build and other factors.
Wow, that's rich. Using your own abilities and equipment to your advantage means a +1 CR. Look dude, I don't think you're the one who needs to be poking fun at other peoples' encounters here. Have you actually looked at the example they use for "favorable conditions"?
...Favorable Terrain for the PCs: An encounter against a monster that's out of its favored element (like a yeti encountered in a sweltering cave with lava, or an enormous dragon encountered in a tiny room) gives the PCs an advantage. Build the encounter as normal, but when you award experience for the encounter, do so as if the encounter were one CR lower than its actual CR.
Unfavorable Terrain for the PCs: Monsters are designed with the assumption that they are encountered in their favored terrain—encountering a water-breathing aboleth in an underwater area does not increase the CR for that encounter, even though none of the PCs breathe water. If, on the other hand, the terrain impacts the encounter
But you are stacking the deck against the orcs unfavorably when you throw an ambush at them like that with traps and all. None of those examples in the text are based on rules (a yeti isn't any worse off in a hot cave with lava than the PCs, nor is he any worse off than in any cave with environmental hazards - the dragon is of unspecified size and a tiny room would be bad for the PCs too) besides the example with light, which is easily countered with the very common Darkvision racial trait, or simple spells. It's their fault for not having those tools, right?
Saying that kobolds are better than orcs, because if you throw the orcs into an unfavorable circumstance they lose, is proving my point that the CR should be increased because the kobolds are effectively more of a challenge than they would be under neutral conditions.
Checkmate.
Pfft. You might want to look at Yetis again. They get +9 to Stealth in Snow, and typically ambush enemies. They also have a vulnerability to fire, which makes them suffer badly when they begin taking environmental fire damage, and makes them exceptionally vulnerable to the lava flowing around. I also question your knowledge of dragons. You suggest being in a tiny room is somehow not a huge detriment to a dragon? You're cutting off its flight and mobility, reducing the advantages it can acquire for its reach, and limiting the coverage it can get with its breath weapon, preventing it from summoning more creatures, and so forth.
Kobolds acting as kobolds do? Well they're ambush creatures. Much like goblins. They won't fight the orcs directly, any more than a wizard is going to demand a no-magic boxing match with a barbarian. Kobolds are either going to flee, or they are going to fight dirty. That's just them being kobolds. Using their natural capabilities, they will get the jump on the orcs and open the fight after laying down some caltrops. They'll shoot and then flee. Orcs coming behind them run across the caltrops, slow down, and get shot up.
You might want to actually look at the monsters before you start using terms like "checkmate". In all examples that they gave, somebody was at an extreme disadvantage. A similar example would be a tiger (stealth predator / ambusher / pouncer) encountered in an open plain or desert. That's a -1 CR.
Humorously, the rules actually say increasing the CR in an unfair situation is "optional", versus reducing the CR if the enemy is disadvantaged (which it says to simply do, not "at your option").
-In Mir, my homebrew, an Orc is at least a 1st level Barbarian, with heroic stats. Even with trash loot they will kill you, easily. Throw into that they are better smiths than elves and you are looking at LE 6'6" Killing machines. Will saves spells make the day.
-Orcs in Mir are like Orcs in Skyrim. Smart, Feral, and brutal. Much like Klingons. If they were not dicided into tribes they'd easily conquer the world.