Savage Charge / Greater Savage Charge + Claw Pounce / Nimble Striker


Rules Questions


The Savage Warrior archetype for the Fighter from the Advanced Players Guide alters how a charge works, as stated below:

Savage Charge (Ex): At 9th level, when a savage warrior
attacks with a natural weapon at the end of a charge, he
gains a bonus on his natural weapon attack rolls equal to
half his fighter level, while suffering a penalty to his AC
equal to half his fighter level. These replace the normal
attack roll bonus and AC penalty for charging. This bonus
also applies to his CMB for a bull rush or overrun combat
maneuvers made when charging. This ability replaces
weapon training 2.

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Greater Savage Charge (Ex): At 17th level, when using
savage charge, the AC penalty is reduced to 1/4 his fighter
level instead of 1/2 his fighter level. In addition, a savage
warrior can charge through friendly creatures and difficult
terrain. This ability replaces weapon training 4.

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The first question comes with the interaction of the Claw Pounce feat from the Advanced Race Guide below:

Claw Pounce (Combat)
You can charge and make an attack with your paws.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Dex 15, Nimble Striker, base attack bonus +10, catfolk, cat’s claws racial trait or Aspect of the Beast (claws of the beast manifestation).
Benefit: When you make a charge, you can make a full attack with your claws.
Normal: Charging is a special full-round action that limits you to a single attack.

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Does the charge bonus to attack (in the case of Savage Charge at the minimum level for Claw Pounce, +5) apply to all attacks on the Full Attack granted by Claw Pounce, or just the first? The feat supersedes the charge rule of “only one attack on a charge”, but isn’t clear on how the attack bonus would apply in such a permutation.

Next is the interaction of the charge abilities with the Nimble Striker feat below:

Nimble Striker (Combat)
You were born to charge your enemies and nobody does it better.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1, catfolk, sprinter racial trait.
Benefit: You do not take a –2 penalty to AC when you use the Cleave feat, Lunge feat, or when you charge

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The Savage Charge and Greater Savage Charge class features alter the penalty amount incurred during a charge, instead of it being a static -2 AC. Would the feat simply subtract two from the AC penalty, or is the feat intended to eliminate the penalties from charge, Lunge, and Cleave altogether?

Also, please don't comment on whether you think it's optimized or not. I'm not looking to make the most mathematically efficient character, I'm just wondering how the rules interact, because I like the aesthetics of a claw fighter. Besides, I think Pathfinder is more fun with interesting RP characters rather than the mathematically optimized ones.


I see absolutely no problem, IMHO.

For the first question... as far as I'm aware, and in every game I've played in, pounce and similar abilities always granted the usual +2 to hit on every attack made on a charge... so this shouldn't be a problem.

As for Nimble Striker, I still think it works perfectly. You'll get 2 less penalty on whatever you get from Savage Charge. Easy peezy.
Nimble striker says "-2 penalty", not "elimates AC penalty for charging", so I believe it's pretty cut and dry.

As for it being optimized... honestly, anything that lets you charge through friendlies and difficult terrain while getting a full attack is awesomesauce on a stick.
Obviously you won't be a crit-focused fighter, but with all the static bonuses to attack and damage combined with TWF you'll be doing some pretty great consistent damage.
Remember you can also get those claws up to 1d6 with the proper catfolk feat.

I think this looks fun and effective, and never really thought of it. I was mostly drooling at the Rogue possibilities.
(though it really sucks you can get Claw Pounce until BaB +10, which makes it a really late feat for a rogue)


For the Nimble Striker feat, it was the wording of "You do not take a –2 penalty to AC" that got me thinking. It isn't "reduce the penalty by 2", it's "you don't take the -2 penalty". That's why I didn't think it was cut and dry. Normally, charge is a static -2 penalty, so the feat "eliminates" the penalty altogether by essentially saying, "you don't take the penalty for these actions". That's what makes systems like this complicated at times once the number of permutations rise; how things are worded can lead to uncertainty because when they first wrote it, said permutation didn't exist.

The trick with such a build is that you'd want to use claw blades or you're still limited to only the two natural attacks per round. This negates some of the other class features, but the bonus to attack and number of attacks per turn might be an acceptable trade-off if you're willing to provoke AoOs every round to charge every round (or if your DM lets you use Acrobatics to avoid AoO, increasing the DC to allow for full speed, then perhaps not).

PS: When it comes to rogues, I'm still trying to figure out a good way to dual wield double barrel pistols on a full attack getting sneak attack. That's a lot of sneak attacks (as DBPs don't have the stipulation double crossbows or manyshot has on sneak attacks) Found a decent way of doing it if enemies don't have low light vision, but is likely obsolete by the time the pieces come together.

You want a good rogue? Try a species created with Frightful Gaze, then Coup de Grace it the following turn as it's standing "paralyzed with fear" with a scythe. Good luck making that fort save.


Still think it's fine RAI and I couldn't see a GM that would have a problem with it as long as you just -2 whatever penalty Savage Charge gives you.

As for dual wielding double barreled pistols... it's pretty tough, even with a gunslinger or fighter since you need a hand free to reload. There are ways to do it, as I'm sure you know, but they are clunky and inelegant, not to mention the whole combo being MASSIVELY feat intensive.

For a Rogue, I would honestly just go with a single double-barreled pistol.... but then grab the Sap Adept and Sap Master feats, along with enchanting the pistol with Merciful.
Congrats! You now have twice as many attacks in a turn that do non-lethal bludgeoning damage! Oh, and with Sap Adept you are getting +2 damage per die, and double the sneak attack dice from Sap Master.
Add Enforcer and eventually the Shatter Defenses combo, and you can get free intimidate checks and even count them as flat-footed at range.
Very fun! (not very sneaky though, lol)

Frightful Gaze sounds fun.... though I don't know of any legal way you could do this, even with the ARG.
Well, you could make a custom race... but it would be considered Advanced, so more powerful than the 0-lvl races by default.

Better just to stick with the usual teamwork combos... Hold Person from your Wizard buddy, or the Sleep Hex from the Witch, etc. :)


Ravennus wrote:

As for dual wielding double barreled pistols... it's pretty tough, even with a gunslinger or fighter since you need a hand free to reload. There are ways to do it, as I'm sure you know, but they are clunky and inelegant, not to mention the whole combo being MASSIVELY feat intensive.

For a Rogue, I would honestly just go with a single double-barreled pistol.... but then grab the Sap Adept and Sap Master feats, along with enchanting the pistol with Merciful.
Congrats! You now have twice as many attacks in a turn that do non-lethal bludgeoning damage! Oh, and with Sap Adept you are getting +2 damage per die, and double the sneak attack dice from Sap Master.
Add Enforcer and eventually the Shatter Defenses combo, and you can get free intimidate checks and even count them as flat-footed at range.
Very fun! (not very sneaky though, lol)

Keep in mind, some people think that the dual damage type of firearms overrules the feats you're planning on using. I proposed that myself when UC came out, and most people shot down the idea. Besides, they still need to be denied thier Dex or flat-footed to be doing all that non-lethal damage.

As for dual wielding DBPs, it's not really that feat intensive. All it really requires are the TWF feats (and Rapid Shot of course). The hardest part is, like you said, the reload. For the most part it'd either require a custom race or 2 levels of alchemist, but a Ninja10/Alchemist (Vivisectionist for Sneak Attack retention)2 could pull it off pretty easily. Equip him with Snipper Goggles, a Speed weapon (or two, depending on GM), spend a Ki point for Greater Invisibility, fill the air with lead and see what's left standing.


Yup, Ninja Greater Invisibility pretty much turns everything to bloody giblets without much investment (unless every enemy starts having True Seeing or equivalent.... wouldn't be surprised, lol).

Otherwise the typical Shatter Defenses intimidate build works nicely. Nothing in the description of Enforcer or Shatter Defenses required you to be in melee range.

Still... growing a third arm (YECH!!) or having to build a custom race are what I consider 'clunky' solutions. YMMV of course.
You are also now looking at a -8 to hit.... which a gunslinger or fighter can pull off, but a lower BaB Ninja/Rogue? Meh

No reason to go into super-cheese mode. Save some feats (which you likely don't have to spend anyway, if you are just a rogue/ninja/alchemist) and stick with 1 pistol. You're DM will still hate you, lol.


Ravennus wrote:


You are also now looking at a -8 to hit.... which a gunslinger or fighter can pull off, but a lower BaB Ninja/Rogue? Meh

Going against Touch AC (come on, you're going to be within 20ft of something to try pulling that stunt off) with them denied Dex (because you're an invisible ninja) means you're shooting at AC 10 or less the vast majority of the time, with a BAB of +8, not counting feat and enhancement buffs to attack. It shouldn't be too hard for most of those shots to find their target, even with the additional -2 from Rapid Shot. Eight of the attacks will have better than 50/50 to hit (after feats and enhancements), and the other eight you have at that level are bonus, but still likely at least 25% chance of hitting.

Still, that's mostly an exercise of seeing just how many shots/sneak attack I can get in a round. Sure, it's munchkin, and any good DM should say, "ah, no", but it's still fun to make such hypotheitcal builds sometimes, just to see what can be done within the rules.


Roaming Shadow wrote:


Still, that's mostly an exercise of seeing just how many shots/sneak attack I can get in a round. Sure, it's munchkin, and any good DM should say, "ah, no", but it's still fun to make such hypotheitcal builds sometimes, just to see what can be done within the rules.

Indeed it is! Can't argue with you there. :)

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