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I bought a hard copy of Blood of Fiends and I must say, kudos to the designers of the book! It really is a great book for lovers of the fiendish such as myself.
There's just one thing nagging me. We are given a picture of one of The Motherless and it is by far the least human looking of all the Tiefling types. Quite horrifying actually. Then the book describes that they eat their way out of their mother's wombs, killing her.
Now I know that it says they have talent for getting others to care for them, but I can't believe in a world where half-orc babies are all-to-often left in alleys to die that anyone would want to care for a freakish barely-human looking thing that kills its own mother upon birth. The first thing most people would probably grab when seeing an infant Motherless is a weapon. And I seriously doubt any maid wants to nurse one of them.
So I guess my real question is, do Qlippoth-born have some sort of illusory or mind-control ability, or is the "iconic" qlippoth-born shown in the magazine just a particularly horrific example?
So I guess my real question is, do Qlippoth-born have some sort of illusory or mind-control ability, or is the "iconic" qlippoth-born shown in the magazine just a particularly horrific example?
Going off the fluff/tables, it does seem like most of the images of Tieflings are a bit exaggerated for effect. Going off the table of Tiefling features on page 31, there are Tieflings that would be close to indistinguishable from humans at first glance (until you noticed oddities like not having a shadow/reflection, a birthmark, oddly-colored eyes, etc).
It might be that they mature super fast, or maybe they are completely self reliant upon birth. Baby Motherless hunting in the gutters for rats and such to eat.
Also, IIRC, most Tiefling grow more inhuman in appearance as they age, so the Motherless may look less alien shortly after birth.
So I guess my real question is, do Qlippoth-born have some sort of illusory or mind-control ability, or is the "iconic" qlippoth-born shown in the magazine just a particularly horrific example?Going off the fluff/tables, it does seem like most of the images of Tieflings are a bit exaggerated for effect. Going off the table of Tiefling features on page 31, there are Tieflings that would be close to indistinguishable from humans at first glance (until you noticed oddities like not having a shadow/reflection, a birthmark, oddly-colored eyes, etc).
Good point. Anyway it's not like my Motherless has to look like that if I don't want it to. Prior to my purchase, I pictured Qlippoth-born as having weird deformities like tentacles on their heads instead of the standard horns of demon/devil-born. Closer to aberrants really.
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I'd probably run it as the mother was impregnated by a Qlippoth summoned by a cult who worships it, and the cult then raises their new messiah
Ok, everyone continues to read Tiefling as Half-Fiend. Tieflings aren't Half-Fiends. I'm pretty sure I recall some of the original Tieflings didn't actually have any Fiendish ancestry at all. They were the victims of Fiendish energies affecting their ancestors. This is particularly applicable in this case, as I don't see Qlippoth bothering to mate with a mortal when they can just kill them instead...
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Isn't "trouble accepting" anyting Qlippoth related kind of the idea?
Paizo doesn't think their fluff through. Just look at the Forlarren. It has some of the least sensical fluff I've seen in a while. Two works. Mama spank.
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Paizo doesn't think their fluff through. Just look at the Forlarren. It has some of the least sensical fluff I've seen in a while. Two works. Mama spank.
They are usually pretty good about "thinking their fluff through." Remember they inherited the Forlarren from earlier editions of Dungeons & Dragons.
A bigger problem, - which is what you might be seeing - is that Paizo has lots of different writers - each with a slightly different understanding of the setting/rules/game design theory/etc.
Good examples of this are:
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Paizo doesn't think their fluff through. Just look at the Forlarren. It has some of the least sensical fluff I've seen in a while. Two works. Mama spank.They are usually pretty good about "thinking their fluff through." Remember they inherited the Forlarren from earlier editions of Dungeons & Dragons.
A bigger problem, - which is what you might be seeing - is that Paizo has lots of different writers - each with a slightly different understanding of the setting/rules/game design theory/etc.
Good examples of this are:
Clerics of the Dwarven Pantheon (detailed in Gods & Magic, but made "inappropriate" in Dwarves of Golarion).
The Sutter/Jacobs arguements over Mengkare's alignment.
And the most infamous "Paladins of Asmodeus."
Well I'm specifically talking about the Forlarren from the Bestiary II. Their fluff is nonsensical. They are a CR 2, and weak for a CR 2. Supposedly some of their mothers die in childbirth, while others don't and raise them. They raise them quickly. And supposedly, inevitably, the Forlarren get angry and kill their mothers in a fit of rage.
Which makes no sense. Because anyone with two brain cells to jive together will notice that their nymph mothers will bend the little brats over their knees and paddle them senseless and give them something to cry about. Mama spank! is the phrase of the day here. Even if the Forlarren, in a fit of rage, crept quietly into her mother's grove while she was asleep and planned to - in hot bloody anger - kill her mother in her sleep in a way that seems awfully premeditated for someone who really needs some bi-polar meds...
The mother would wake up, grab the daughter's hand, say "Mommy is very disappointed", and then proceed to spank her again. "Mommy's going to keep spanking you every time you try to kill her; but this hurts me more than it hurts you, my pathetic, pitiful, barely CR 2 daughter."
I mean, let's be serious. If you actually bothered to research your own text, a Forlarren can't even hurt their mothers, let alone kill them. Your typical garden variety nymph is CR 7, with DR/10, 60 hp, great saves, and a variety of spells and SLAs. Hell, the momma can summon creatures that could spank her daughter for her, if she didn't feel like getting her hands dirty.
Just as yet another example of how this would go down...
Forlarren: "Waaagh, mama I hate you!" *slashes mother across face*
Nymph: *smirks as her daughter's claws spark across her skin like a match with no trouble* "Oh you little imp. You behave yourself now."
Forlarren: "Grr, I'm angry, waaagh!" *picks up a stick and slams her mother in the face*
Nymph: *stick bounces off the mom harmlessly* "Okay, now you're not being very lady like. Give me that." *makes an untrained disarm and grabs the stick from her daughter.*
Forlarren: "Waaagh, that's MY STICK!!!" *attack of opportunity*
Nymph: *sparks again as claws glance off her like rain water on an umbrealla* "Okay, you're going to have to sit in time out." *grapples Forlarren*
Forlarren: "No mommy nooo! Oh god I hate you so much! You never let me do anything like the other girls! You're such at b#$%@ ass skank! Waaaaagh! Why won't you let me kill you! You won't let me have anything!"
Nymph: *pins her daughter and ties her up with a nearby vine* "Okay, now you can sit there until you learn not to call your mommy a b+~+! ass skank. I'm going to go find an adventurer to be your new daddy. Dinner's in the fridge. I'll be back by seven."
Forlarren: *sobbing hopelessly and then suddenly gets serious* "W-wait mommy! I-I love you! Couldn't you ummm...at least turn the scrying pool to Charmed before you go?"
Well I'm specifically talking about the Forlarren from the Bestiary II. Their fluff is nonsensical. They are a CR 2, and weak for a CR 2. Supposedly some of their mothers die in childbirth, while others don't and raise them. They raise them quickly. And supposedly, inevitably, the Forlarren get angry and kill their mothers in a fit of rage.
Your point is valid.
Even if you allow for the relatively weaker "Dryad" to count as the "nymph" mother (since they were considered "wood nymphs" in Greek Myth). She still gives the poor Forlarren a rather nasty spanking.
Then again, the good thing about the Forlarren's weakness is the RP opportunities it could present. Such as a nymph being heart-broken over her daughter's condition, wishing to somehow "cure" it from it's taint. And maybe some hapless Paladin almost killing the poor thing after it ran away from it's mother, causing a bit of a problematic situation as they kinda did the right thing, and kinda didn't.
But weren't we supposed to talk about the Qlippoth-spawn instead?
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Ashiel is a walking example of the old rule that negativity is 10 times easier than writing something positive :)
Depends on my mood. I'm addicted to the forum, but I should probably just leave it alone, because of certain annoyances. By my nature, I'm usually helpful and easy going, but lately I've noticed a more cynical and sarcastic bent. But then what can you expect with a board that allows thread-stalkers to go unchecked, or when you have to fight tooth and nail just to discuss something as civilly as possible and explain your position thrice or more. A recent example clearly defined.
If someone tries to do something for the community, write a guide, offer advice, people have to rain on your parade. In my Practical Optimization thread, I explain how to get comfortable with using the system to design organic, realistic characters, that you can play with a heavy nod to roleplaying and such. The entire thread got so bogged down with haters that I just stopped bothering.
Over here I tried hard to make someone's foray into the GMing wilderness as easy as possible. Took quite a while to write all of it out. I dedicated a few hours to it at least. Simply because I wanted to help. That's because on the inside, Ashiel the Grouch is actually a very warm and nice person who wants to be happy and see everyone else happy. It's just that in this environment, it's safer to be a cynical b$!!! and deal with everything in cold logic and humor. Few people really want to share ideas. Most seem to just lurk about to fight, so have your fists up and ready to take your AoO.
I mean, someone was "having trouble accepting" some fluff behind one of the monsters. I explained Paizo doesn't seem to put a lot of thought into a lot of their new monsters. I gave an example. More likely than not, instead of trying to justify the nonsensical fluff of a creature, it's better to just use your own. I mean, Paizo might say "Hey this thing busts its way out of its mother like some sort of tentacled xenomorph and then people love and cuddle with it" in a manner of speaking, but it doesn't mean that you have to buy that. I mean, admittedly, I'd probably have thwacked the lil' bastard with a shovel on the way out just from fear of the womb-burster turning into some sort of queen womb-burster and spawning a score of womb-bursting progeny. :P
If I came off as overly hostile, I apologize to anyone offended, and to you Gorbacz. Just not in the greatest mood at the time, and frankly it just made me feel better to joke about the silliness that was the forlarren.
Then again, the good thing about the Forlarren's weakness is the RP opportunities it could present. Such as a nymph being heart-broken over her daughter's condition, wishing to somehow "cure" it from it's taint. And maybe some hapless Paladin almost killing the poor thing after it ran away from it's mother, causing a bit of a problematic situation as they kinda did the right thing, and kinda didn't.
But weren't we supposed to talk about the Qlippoth-spawn instead?
Yeah, they just need an alchemist who can make some really strong bi-polar meds and they could live happily ever after.
EDIT: I'd recommend just ignoring the fluff for the Qlippoth-spawn. I mean, last I checked, nobody cuddled this thing when it was born in much the same way, so make something that makes more sense if you need to. :P
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Ashiel is a walking example of the old rule that negativity is 10 times easier than writing something positive :)Depends on my mood. I'm addicted to the forum, but I should probably just leave it alone, because of certain annoyances. By my nature, I'm usually helpful and easy going, but lately I've noticed a more cynical and sarcastic bent. But then what can you expect with a board that allows thread-stalkers to go unchecked, or when you have to fight tooth and nail just to discuss something as civilly as possible and explain your position thrice or more. A recent example clearly defined.
If you play with fire, you either are ready to be burned, or you don't play at all. Especially if you enjoy adversity, a passion we both seem to share.
No hate here, Ashiel. That was funny.
:D
Glad you enjoyed it. ^.^
I don't think there is anything wrong with the fluff for the motherless, it just didn't have room to be elaborated on. We get half a page of text on them, most of which is on appearance, etc. If the Xenomorph didn't need to be bottle-fed, I don't see why the motherless would be.
Especially since the fluff mentions that they are seldom isolated births, and in fact are born in clusters. If you have a small community or neighborhood, you might have only one or two available midwives, so it's quite plausible for a motherless to rip it's way out before being noticed, especially if the process is as fast as in say Alien.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the fluff for the motherless, it just didn't have room to be elaborated on. We get half a page of text on them, most of which is on appearance, etc. If the Xenomorph didn't need to be bottle-fed, I don't see why the motherless would be.
Especially since the fluff mentions that they are seldom isolated births, and in fact are born in clusters. If you have a small community or neighborhood, you might have only one or two available midwives, so it's quite plausible for a motherless to rip it's way out before being noticed, especially if the process is as fast as in say Alien.
Ah, but the Motherless feat in the Social section (pretty obviously tailored towards Qlippoth-spawn) makes it seem that they are indeed not self-reliant at an early age.
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I like the idea, stolen from Marvel Comics and their mutants, that, in some cases, freaky traits don't manifest visibly until puberty, giving the child plenty of time to mature before getting cast out for being a freak. If a tiefling baby looks almost entirely human for the first few years of it's life, and only begins to show some unusual signs as it matures, the family (and perhaps friends) may have had time to get attached to them, and not be as willing to run for the pitchforks, screaming 'Kill it with fire!' (Having the actual change happen in response to some sort of triggering event, like the first time a spell is cast upon you, or upon a near-death experience, or even, like from the Fly movie, the human body splitting open to reveal the hideous new form, could be another way to go.)
Then again, this is Golarion, where there is a goddess whose faith adores grotesque little monster-babies. To the faith of Lamashtu, a monstrously formed baby is a blessed events, and potential oracle.
Other gods also have some guidelines that could lead to a horrific looking child being protected. A kindly follower of Sarenrae, all about the redemption and second chances, could take in such a child. Calistria already has a reputation for taking in half-elven and tieflings (particularly females) and offering them shelter in her temples. Erastil is all about family and community, and 'abandon my baby cause it's ugly' seems very much *NOT* the way to get on the god of family's good side. One follower of Pharasma could see *any* birth as a fated thing, and a sacred thing, even if it's features might prove a burden to bear, while another might see the signs of fiendish blood as a sign that the child is *not* fated to be, and promptly drown it. Could go either way on that one.
I agree with everything Set said.
I can also see adventurers rolling into some strange town and immediately getting the "town with a dark secret" vibe as the locals try to chase them out... only to discover that several of the townsfolk have had tiefling children and they are terrified that someone will come and snatch their kids away for experimentation/sacrifice/exhibition in a freak show.
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Motherless Fiendish Heritage does not equal Motherless Social Trait.
Any Tiefling may choose the Motherless Social Trait.
A Tiefling with the Motherless Fiendish Heritage is not compelled to select the Motherless Social Trait.
There is no "fluff" conflict if a Tiefling has both the Motherless Fiendish Heritage and Social Trait: the latter indicates the Tieflish merely excels at manipulating others (via Bluff and Disguise) to care for it -- though I suspect not for long ;)
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Nymph: *pins her daughter and ties her up with a nearby vine* "Okay, now you can sit there until you learn not to call your mommy a b+#!* ass skank. I'm going to go find an adventurer to be your new daddy. Dinner's in the fridge. I'll be back by seven."
Forlarren: *sobbing hopelessly and then suddenly gets serious* "W-wait mommy! I-I love you! Couldn't you ummm...at least turn the scrying pool to Charmed before you go?"
This is part of why the Forlarren is my favorite fey. Too many great possibilities and dynamics to get out of this.
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Erastil is all about family and community, and 'abandon my baby cause it's ugly' seems very much *NOT* the way to get on the god of family's good side. One follower of Pharasma could see *any* birth as a fated thing, and a sacred thing, even if it's features might prove a burden to bear, while another might see the signs of fiendish blood as a sign that the child is *not* fated to be, and promptly drown it. Could go either way on that one.
One could mine some really intense Pharasmin vs. Pharasmin conflict out of that scenario. The death/undead-hate thing gets so much play that this could actually surprise a lot of players if they walk into such a situation.
And while Erastil might grate on some folks, and some aspects of him actually grate on me too, it's natural conclusions like the one drawn above that make me love the old grouch. :)
I like the Qlippoth-Spawn. They're probably my favourite in the whole book. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to offer evidence against my side in the fact that their write-up in Blood of Fiends states that they always display their freakish deformities at birth.
That being said, love can be a funny thing. The father of a motherless might despise his child for taking his beloved away from him, but he is also just as likely to care for him as the last reminder of the love that they shared. If anything has been proven throughout history, it's that love and/or family can make people very irrational.....