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So, there are obviously rules for wielding inappropriately sized weapons, but some need to be addressed, as they are special cases.
Which of these can be wielded be a medium sized PCs(with penalties of course)?
1) Large sized Gauntlet
2) Large sized Brass knuckles
3) Large sized Cestus
4) Large sized Spiked Gauntlet
5) Large sized Blade boot
6) Large sized Light Shield
7) Large sized Knuckle Axe
8) Large sized Rope gauntlet
9) Large sized Thorn bracer
10) Large sized Emei piercer
11) Large sized Madu
12) Large sized Tekko-kagi
13) Large sized Buckler Gun
14) Large sized Barbazu beard
15) Large sized Armor Spikes
Can a Titan Mauler use a Gargantuan Gauntlet with one hand, via Jotungrip?
As far as I know, you can't wear inappropriately sized armor at all. Not sure how a gauntlet works since it's both armor and a weapon. But regardless, you can only wield size-appropriate weapons with Jotungrip.
Jotungrip allows the titan mauler to use two-handed melee weapons in one hand, but only if the weapon is appropriately sized for the character.
As for the armor spikes, probably not. The cost and weight are tied to the armor, so I don't think you can have them with mismatched sizes.
So, there are obviously rules for wielding inappropriately sized weapons, but some need to be addressed, as they are special cases.
Which of these can be wielded be a medium sized PCs(with penalties of course)?1) Large sized Gauntlet
2) Large sized Brass knuckles
3) Large sized Cestus
4) Large sized Spiked Gauntlet
5) Large sized Blade boot
6) Large sized Light Shield
7) Large sized Knuckle Axe
8) Large sized Rope gauntlet
9) Large sized Thorn bracer
10) Large sized Emei piercer
11) Large sized Madu
12) Large sized Tekko-kagi
13) Large sized Buckler Gun
14) Large sized Barbazu beard
15) Large sized Armor Spikes
Also, don't forget 16) Klar
Although I think anything that is usable as a shield is out, for the same reason as armor.
Would those that are giving armor/shield bonuses, simply discontinue to do so, but still be able to be used as weapons?
RAW, I'm not sure. If I were judging, I'd probably treat them as one- or two-handed improvised weapons with no shield or armor bonus.
Which of these can be wielded be a medium sized PCs(with penalties of course)?
Couldn't you have looked these up?
Normally One-handed Weapons, wielded as two-handed weapons:
13) Large sized Buckler Gun
Normally Light Weapons, wielded as one-handed weapons:
3) Large sized Cestus
4) Large sized Spiked Gauntlet
5) Large sized Blade boot
6) Large sized Light Shield
7) Large sized Knuckle Axe
8) Large sized Rope gauntlet
9) Large sized Thorn bracer
10) Large sized Emei piercer
11) Large sized Madu
12) Large sized Tekko-kagi
14) Large sized Barbazu beard
15) Large sized Armor Spikes
No category (RAW), but Light weapons pending SKR's fist revamp:
1) Large sized Gauntlet
2) Large sized Brass knuckles
Can a Titan Mauler use a Gargantuan Gauntlet with one hand, via Jotungrip?
Jotungrip (Ex): "At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her..."
These are all wielded in particular manner that may complicate it's ability to be wielded.
Two sizes and then there could be problems. Wielding a huge boot blade as a two-handed weapon, two-handed beard, etc.
Couldn't you have looked these up?
The RAW for these as weapons are clear. His question is due to the fact that these are worn in addition to being wielded, and because they often include special properties.
Take, for example, the Scizore. It's a tube you wear over your forearm, wielded as a one-handed weapon. Now say you're using a Small Scizore as a Medium character. You can't fit it over your forearm, so how do you wield it? Do you swing it like a club? Do you still get the AC bonus and the +10 to CMD vs. Disarm?
My answer is that with all of these, you're no long wielding them properly. You're not wearing the Barbazu Beard, you're swinging it with one hand. Your Large Blade Boot no longer fits on your foot, so you're holding it in one hand and flopping it around. So none of the special properties apply and you treat it as an improvised weapon.
Transitive property: armor is made up of pieces, gauntlets are pieces of armor. Yes, they ARE "armor" themselves.
Why are gauntlets armor?
Gauntlets aren't listed in Table: Armor and Shields. They don't have armor proficiency, they don't have ACP or ASF%. If you buy a masterwork gauntlet the bonus is to attack and damage rather than -ACP. Druids can wield them without penalty. Anyone can wield a gauntlet without armor, and you can remove the ones that came with your armor without lessening your protection.
A gauntlet is simply a light melee weapon. A larger gauntlet is a one-handed melee weapon. The only differences are inappropriate size penalty, TWF penalties and you can use both hands for extra strength bonus.
Why are gauntlets armor?
Gauntlets aren't listed in Table: Armor and Shields. They don't have armor proficiency, they don't have ACP or ASF%. If you buy a masterwork gauntlet the bonus is to attack and damage rather than -ACP. Druids can wield them without penalty. Anyone can wield a gauntlet without armor, and you can remove the ones that came with your armor without lessening your protection.
A gauntlet is simply a light melee weapon. A larger gauntlet is a one-handed melee weapon. The only differences are inappropriate size penalty, TWF penalties and you can use both hands for extra strength bonus.
Can it be disarmed?
Can it be disarmed?
"Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets."
Just like spiked gauntlets.
gauntlets are listed as weapons in the weapon section, but (unlike other weapons) can't be disarmed, and they're called out as exceptions to the "any weapon can be disarmed" rule.
How are you going to put on a metal glove when each finger of which is larger than your fist?
The same way you use one hand to wield a large dagger which has a grip the same diameter as your thigh.
A large gauntlet is a small object. Just like a medium rapier.
If a gauntlet is clothing, then a +1 gauntlet would re-size to fit the wearer, like all magic clothing.
Gauntlets are both weapons and armor.
Gauntlets are not armor. They are in no way armor. They don't have any properties in common with armor. Sometimes you get a pair for free when you buy armor, but that doesn't change what type of item they are.
If you really want a "large gauntlet" just use a cestus.
A cestus is a light melee weapon just like a spiked gauntlet.
Gauntlets are part of armor sets and are specifically noted to come included with medium and heavy armor (except breastplate). That signifies that they fall into the category of "armor" and armor must be appropriately sized to be worn.
I disagree. Armor including an item doesn't make the item into armor.
Full Plate includes boots. This doesn't make boots into armor, and wearing Boots of Elvenkind isn't going to make a monk lose Flurry.
What item slot does magic armor take? According to this it's the Armor slot. What item slot does a magic gauntlet take? Hands.
A wizard, monk, or druid can all wear a gauntlet without penalty. Just like they can wear a Helm of Teleportation or Boots of Speed. Because even though gauntlets and helms and boots are sometimes included when you buy armor, they are not armor themselves.
If a gauntlet is armor, then you can't get a masterwork gauntlet that grants an enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
A Gauntlet, as a weapon, must be worn to be wielded and replaces your Unarmed Strike weapon with the Gauntlet weapon.
Unarmed Strikes can be made with punches, kicks, and head butts. You could still kick or headbutt while wearing gauntlets.
I think a Cestus would work best since it doesn't qualify, technically, as armor.
Unless the shopkeeper included a cestus for free when you buy a chain shirt.
You could wield a large blade boot, but you'd have to hold it in your hand.
I think you're suffering from a bit of hyper-technicality here.
I think you're suffering from a bit of hyper-generalization here.
Gauntlets and gloves take up the "hand" slot for magic items, but let me ask you this: If you were wearing armor that included gauntlets, could you wear a separate pair of enchanted gauntlets or gloves in addition? Of course not, because your "armor" covers not only your armor slot but also extends to your hand slot.
You are incorrect as to why you can't wear two magical items in the same slot.
You can't wear two magic gauntlets for the same reason you can't wear two magic amulets, because the rules specifically say so.
A suit of armor takes up the Armor slot, and only the armor slot. Otherwise your +1 full plate would prohibit you from also wearing magic boots, crowns, and gloves.
A set of full plate armor occupies not only the "armor" slot but also the head, feet, and hands at least.
This is incorrect. Suits of armor take up the Armor slot. Full Plate includes some accessories, but those accessories are not needed for the armor to function, and they don't function as armor on their own.
Now if a Monk were to wear a pair of plate sabatons, armored gauntlets, or a helmet, it would qualify as "piece-meal armor" and I'd say that does qualify as armor and would interfere with his monk abilities.
Piecemeal Armor: "A single armor piece comprises the armor parts one needs to protect its corresponding area—either the arms, the legs, or the torso (including the head)"
A Helm of underwater action does not protect the torso, or even the head. Boots of levitation do not protect your legs. Gloves of Arrow Snaring do not protect your arms. None of them are piecemeal armor.
Some piecemeal arms include gauntlets, but like all things that include gauntlets, the gauntlets are not required for the armor to function, and they have no protective benefit on their own.
Next, the ability to use un-armed strike with any body-part is only listed under the Monk class; it isn't listed as an intrinsic part of Improved Unarmed Strike. And even if it were, you'd need the feat Improved Unarmed Strike to benefit from that caveat while wearing Gauntlets.
Incorrect. Monks gain the additional ability to strike with their elbows and knees.
Combat, Unarmed Attacks: "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon..."
Monk Unarmed Strike: "A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet."
Improved Unarmed Strike makes you armed, not provoke, and have the option for lethal or non-lethal. It does not change which parts of your body you may strike with.
These aren't "actual weapons" but they're "functional weapons" and so are listed under "weapons".
SKR: "Brass knuckles should be armed (light melee weapon) attacks. (As should gauntlets and spiked gauntlets.)"
SKR: "Treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as "unarmed attacks" doesn't make a lot of sense... Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away."
Gauntlets are inherently part of specific armors as explicitly stated in the rules.
It does not say it is part of the armor, it just comes with it. You can remove or replace your heavy leather boots, and your full plate still functions. Same with gauntlets. If you walk around wearing only heavy leather boots and gauntlets, you're not wearing armor.
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Okay, mechanically, a gauntlet is neither armor, nor an unarmed strike.
There are no "unarmed strike" weapons other than the unarmed strike.
I knew that.
Wielding an inappropriately sized gauntlet is no different than wielding a inappropriately sized Cestus, Spiked Gauntlet, or Rope gauntlet.
So, if you can wield one of these "glove like" weapons, you can wield them all.
My question is, can you?
By the way, this sounds odd, but I cannot find the rules info for inappropriately sized armor/shields. Anyone know where I can find it?
Okay, mechanically, a gauntlet is neither armor, nor an unarmed strike.
There are no "unarmed strike" weapons other than the unarmed strike.
I knew that.Wielding an inappropriately sized gauntlet is no different than wielding a inappropriately sized Cestus, Spiked Gauntlet, or Rope gauntlet.
So, if you can wield one of these "glove like" weapons, you can wield them all.
My question is, can you?By the way, this sounds odd, but I cannot find the rules info for inappropriately sized armor/shields. Anyone know where I can find it?
Not "unarmed strike", but Unarmed Attacks...
Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
Gauntlet, Spiked: The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of spiked gauntlets.
Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
Okay, mechanically, a gauntlet is neither armor, nor an unarmed strike.
It's not? That's odd, cause the rules seem to suggest otherwise.
"This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."
Also, a gauntlet is not classified as a light weapon, so the inappropriate sized don't apply.
Third, even if you could wield an over-sized gauntlet, all it does is let you deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike. So, the damage would still be the normal for a creature of your size.
Edit: Brass Knuckles and Cestus are also described as modifying you unarmaed strike, so their damage wouldn't change either.
Cestus does 1D4 instead of 1D3.
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The "Unarmed" weapons thing has been addressed and errata'd already. SKR pointed out several times.
Gauntlet is a light weapon, does not count as an unarmed strike, this is RAW.
Brass Knuckles is a light weapon, does not count as an unarmed strike, this is RAW.
Cestus is a light weapon, does not count as an unarmed strike, this is RAW.
All weapons with the "allows you to lethal damage with unarmed strikes" have been errata'd as light weapons. See Here, here and here.
The "Unarmed" weapons thing has been addressed and errata'd already. SKR pointed out several times.
Gauntlet is a light weapon, does not count as an unarmed strike, this is RAW.
Brass Knuckles is a light weapon, does not count as an unarmed strike, this is RAW.
Cestus is a light weapon, does not count as an unarmed strike, this is RAW.All weapons with the "allows you to lethal damage with unarmed strikes" have been errata'd as light weapons. See Here, here and here.
First off, is there an official errata? While I definately suggest following SKRs recommendations on the matter (like most of his recommendations), you can't label it RAW if it only exist in some two year old thread on this forum.
Secondly, I think the ruling is way off concerning Gauntlets. Assuming that they are light weapons instead of unarmed attacks, removes that fact that they provoke when attacking with them.
First off, is there an official errata? While I definately suggest following SKRs recommendations on the matter (like most of his recommendations), you can't label it RAW if it only exist in some two year old thread on this forum.
Mostly correct.
When a change is announced, it's not RAW until it appears in errata, or at least the FAQ.
When a clarification is made, the rules don't change, so the board post is sufficient.
I think the fist weapon stuff is a change, thus isn't technically RAW until it gets FAQ'd or changed via errata. That doesn't mean it's not the intent and how everyone should use it in the meantime.
Secondly, I think the ruling is way off concerning Gauntlets. Assuming that they are light weapons instead of unarmed attacks, removes that fact that they provoke when attacking with them.
They could remove all references to unarmed from all of the fist weapons, and just include a line in the gauntlet that says it provokes. (similar to the whip)
They could remove all references to unarmed from all of the fist weapons, and just include a line in the gauntlet that says it provokes. (similar to the whip)
Well the provoking were only part of it, the other part is not threatening. All in all, I am fine with the gauntlet as is. It haven't caused problems so far, before the other items came into play.
I am equally fine with brass knuckless and cestus being light simple weapons (Although large versions of worn weapons wouldn't be allowed at my table).
With the exception of the gauntlet, all "unarmed" weapons have been changed to plain old light weapons in official, downloadable errata.
Table: Weapons (APG) still shows Brass knuckles under Unarmed Attacks and the text still says they use monk unarmed damage.
The PRD is updated to meet new editions. I also don't see mention of it in APG errata Update 1.0 from 12/01/10.
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For Brass Knuckles, read the Adventurer Armory Errata.
Inside front cover—Under Simple Weapons, move
the Brass Knuckles entry from Unarmed Attacks to
Light Melee Weapons. Delete Unarmed Attacks.
• Inside front cover—In the Brass Knuckles entry,
change Special to “monk.”Page 2—In the Brass Knuckles entry, in the second
sentence, remove “with unarmed attacks.”
Now, let's move away from the gauntlet for a moment.
Are the other "glove-like" weapons something you can wield if inappropriately sized?
RAW, I believe you can.
In the absence of common sense, such weapons should probably have a "Worn" property which indicates that they can't be used unless appropriately sized.
If I were Judging, I'd probably say you can use your Huge Barbazu Beard, but it's either in your hands and used as an improvised weapon, or it's on your head and you're effectively blind because it's two sizes too big for you.