Melee Druid- Should I consider any of the Archtypes?


Advice


Since the Deinonychus is by far the best wild shape option (at least at low level) and being a T-rex could be awesome for high level, I've been thinking about going Saurian Shaman... Is it worth losing Thousand Faces and geting Wild Shape two levels later?

I was planning on geing Aspect of the Beast-Claw as a low level feat, and a toothy half-orc so even in base form I can use natural weapons, but seems way more efficient to use totem ransformaion to get
Natural weapons (bite [1d6], 2 claws [1d4] for a Medium druid, rake, +2 CMB to grapple)

Plus I could just go human, and get an extra feat at level one... (which lets me get vital strike and cleave by the time I can transform.)

Is it also worth losing (or nerfing) infiltration powers of a druid? (dogs, horses, and crows aren't dinos.. Come to mention it, there are no flying dinosaurs)

Just wondering...

Liberty's Edge

In general, no. Wildshaping is best level 4 - 8. All you are doing by taking Saurian Shaman is making wildshape best levels 6 - 8.

Mehir savant, however, is always an archetype worth considering.


Unless I missed something while working on my own melee druid build, there is no way you can become a T-rex (gargantuan). The closest you can get is an allosaurus (huge), which is awesome because like the deionychus, it has pounce.

But, yeah, ShadowcatX has the right of it, you'll be pushing your WS back until level 6, which isn't in anyone's best interest.

Might I interest you in Shaping focus? Lets you multiclass into something else and keep the full Wildshaping progression. I'd recommend something with full BaB.

prototype00


hmm. Looks interesting, but seems more fitting to a magic-using almost wizard-like druid. (Exploring the mysteries of the world, and all that crap. ;) )

My druid is going to be more of a Maintain the Predator/Prey relationship, and eat the hearts of his victims to absorb their power type of druid.


@ protototype
Ah, interesting idea. Let me look at my options...


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The evolutionary biologist in me is bristling at the assertion that crows aren't dinosaurs.


Look closely at Saurian Shaman's Wildshape.

Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a saurian shaman's wild shape ability functions at her druid level –2. If she takes on the form of a reptile or a dinosaur, she instead uses her druid level +2.

Notice that this ability does not replace Wildshape, just modifies it. You still get Wildshape at 4th level. At 6th level, your non-Saurian wildshapes are treated as if you were still 4th level for what you can turn into, while your Saurian are treated as if your 8th level.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Azten wrote:

Look closely at Saurian Shaman's Wildshape.

Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a saurian shaman's wild shape ability functions at her druid level –2. If she takes on the form of a reptile or a dinosaur, she instead uses her druid level +2.

Notice that this ability does not replace Wildshape, just modifies it. You still get Wildshape at 4th level. At 6th level, your non-Saurian wildshapes are treated as if you were still 4th level for what you can turn into, while your Saurian are treated as if your 8th level.

It's an ambiguity in the writing, which I've addressed numerous times before on the messageboards. It seemed clear to me when I wrote it (and the verbiage was not changed in development; it appears as I wrote it), but the fact that it was open to being read that way was pointed out after the APG came out. The point has been discussed quite a bit on the boards; do a search for my name and wild shape/animal shamans and you should find plenty to read if you're interested.

The RAW can be argued both ways (replaces vs. modifies). The RAI has been clearly: You get wildshape at 6th level, not 4th level, with the modifiers noted.

Otherwise, your wild shaping would start at 4th, then get better at 5th, then get WORSE at 6th for everything other than reptilians... and that should indicate that the interpretation is silly on the face of it. Can you name another class feature that gets worse after you get it?

That said, if you think you can argue your GM into that being the correct usage and you guys enjoy it at the table, then by all means have fun.


So the size upgrades, or the duration, or both?


Ah, dang. Do rangers get a better BAB than druids?


Yes, they get full BAB instead of 3/4 BAB.


The only thing that would get better and then worse as you progress 4-5-6 is the duration, which has little practical effect, so I don't think running it that way is so silly. If you were to actually run it like that you'd mostly just experience a sudden leap in focus-form wild shaping while other forms stay stagnant.

On topic: Druids are already one of the most powerful and versatile classes in the game. You can afford to make slightly non-optimal choices if you think they are really cool and the animal shamans are really cool. Shaping focus and multiclassing will be a much more significant power drop because spells are just so good, but it's a good way to just focus on being a dinosaur and tearing s!&~ apart if that's what you're going for.


Hmm... So maybe Druid/Ranger with Shapeshifting Hunter as a feat...

can I get a companion as a druid and a companion as a ranger?

Does shifter's Blessing stack withwild shape? (I know I would have to wild shape into the animal first, but could I then activate aspect of the bear for +4 str?

I'm assuming so, since it does say-
"This is not a polymorph ability; a Ranger with shifter’s blessing in one of his shifted forms can be affected by a polymorph ability and retain his bonus and Traits gained by the class feature. "

Sczarni

No. Your levels stack for the animal companion, but it doesn't grant you a second companion.


The animal companion class features will stack, so if you chose companion from both Hunter's Bond and Nature Bond you would just add the levels together. A Druid 8/Ranger 4 would have a level 9 animal companion.

Generally speaking, Shifter's Blessing will stack with Wild Shape (even if you shift before you shape), although Form of the Dragon's AC bonus wouldn't stack with Wild Shape. Also note that Form of the Bear is an enhancement bonus so it won't stack with a belt.


Redchigh: if you are going to build a melee druid you could also go druid/fighter with the feat Shaping Focus.
To get all forms you would need to go to druid 8 and then at level 9 take Shaping Focus when you take a full BAB class.

If you are going for one of the archetypes you can go to druid 6 and then at level 7 take shaping focus and a full BAB class. But you will be limited to level 8 shapes in creatures that are not part of your archetype.

- Gauss


Normally I'd just build the druid and be done, but I found out there isn't a tank in the party, and it will sort of be my job to be the primary melee character.

(Well, there is a monk, but he's doing something sneaky instead of going melee.)

There's a wizard, sorcerer, oracle, monk, and a druid. :/ I guess I'll just be using 'Summon Natures Ally' a lot...

Can you think of any other optimisations for a primary melee druid?
(for feats, I'm definately going with combat. Might not even get natural spell until later since there's so many magic users)

Cleave and Vital Strike are definately high on my list, but for RP purposes, I don't want to use weapons. (My character disagrees with them- believes in the spirit of nature. )

Half orc, Toothy trait, Aspect of the Beast Claw, 3 1D4+4 attacks per round...

Saurian Shaman can gain me two feats though- I don't have to go half orc, and can go human- (+1 feat) and don't need aspect of the beast-claw (+1 feat).

All attacks are primary, so the shapeshift for +4 strength gives +2 dmg per attack- giving me 3 (1D4+6) attacks per round... Right?

(EDIT- just saw that the Shaman ability bite attack is 1D6- even better)

@Gauss- Aren't te Dinos pretty much the toughest ones anyway? Raptors at low to mid level and a Stegosaur with Vital strike and cleave at high level?


Are you starting at level 1 and what sort of stats do you get?

For a druid tank i would consider a Mountain Druid with either the growth domain or the anger inquisition and at level 1 if possible take the rich parents trait to start with a dragonhide Breastplate

The reason for mountain druid really doesn't come into its own untill level 12 when he can wildshape into giant forms which then allow him to use his equiptment without the costly +3 enchantments on his shield and armor.


Redchigh, yes and no. Raptors at low level are about equal with the cats with pounce. Eventually the deionychus (sp?) is better than the Dire Tiger (by a little bit). The Stego is the shining star though for ease of build.

When I say 'limited to level 8 shapes in creatures that are not part of your archetype' I also mean 'no huge elementals'.

A fighter/druid is one of the easiest ways to acquire the feats you need to make a melee wild shape build. Being limited to level 12 wildshape (or level 8/12 if going archetype) is not that big a deal when you are getting so much extra combat power from fighter.

- Gauss


Starting at level 1- Stats are-

Str-17 Dex-14 Con-14 Int-7 Wis-14 Int-6

Can fighters be impulsive? I thought they were devoted and well-trained... My druid is more animal than humanoid....


Fighters can be any alignment. I think chaotic is rather impulsive to my mind.

- Gauss


Hmm. From a cursory look at things I'd recomend taking a look at a standard Druid with the plant domain or a blight druid from the APG with the distruction domain.

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