Meteor Hammer wielding modes.


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If a PC wields a Meteor Hammer in Meteor mode, must he do so with two hands?
Can a PC wield a Meteor Hammer in Meteor mode in one hand, like other double weapons, using only one end?
What about a Titan Mauler with Jotungrip wielding a Meteor Hammer in Meteor mode?


You cant wield a double weapon like say, a double sword in one hand to use one end. its a two handed weapon regardless.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

What about a medium PC, wielding a small Meteor Hammer?

What about a Titan Mauler with Jotungrip?

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Basically, what I am trying to find out is:
Can a Titan Mauler wield a Meteor Hammer in each hand, with each one in a different mode?
Like this: Hand A) Meteor mode, Hand B) Fortress mode.

Same goes for a regular medium PC wielding two small Meteor Hammers.


hmm
well to start with, there is no rule that says to use chain weapons, you need to use 2 hands, just the regular light/one/two handed rules. as such, if you get the ability to use a two handed weapon with one hand, all it functions at full capacity. I am unsure about the rules for double weapons, but my understanding is this;

d20srd wrote:

Double Weapons

Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

This is old rules and as such I am unsure if they are exactly the same for pathfinder, but it should give you what your looking for. Note the second paragraph, second sentence: A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Again assuming that the rules haven't changed, you could use it in one hand as a regular weapon (remember your using it one handed so no increased str multiplier), and use a second in the other hand in fortress mode.

Interesting thing, jotungrip, it allows some really weird things to be used...
Examples:
Sansetsukon
Kusarigama
dual welding Bardiches
dual welding Earthbreakers!
dual welding Ogre Hooks, here comes the evil ogre!
dual welding battle ladders?
Elven Curved Blade is a fave
Garrote (itrestingly nowhere does it say you actually require both hands to use, just that it is a 2 handed weapon)
Generally any large 2 handed weapon doubled up is fun


One thing I would love to be able to do sometime, requires a bit of GM fiat to make work (especially the alchemist part) is this:
Half giant,
Permeant enlarge person
2 levels Titan mauler (Jotungrip)
2 levels Alchemist (Extra discovery feat, 2 vestigial arms)
go strength two weapon fighting ranger for the rest.
4 lucerne hammers (or other large 2 handed reach weapons)

Again I know that the Alchemist part will require Gm fiat, but doing this with multi-weapon fighting would be a sweet character concept.


I would say the following:

Meteor mode would follow the standard rules for double weapons wielded either as a double weapon (an attack from each end) or one end two-handed.

Fortress mode already follows the rules for two-handed reach weapons.

When applying Jotungrip I would say the following occurs:
Jotungrip+meteor mode (double weapon) would not be possible.
Jotungrip+Meteor mode (2handed) allows you to wield one end only.
Jotungrip+fortress mode allows you to use it as a reach weapon.

The main advantage I see here is that you are using 2 weapons (individual Meteor Hammers in each hand) that can each switch between normal or reach.

Edit: to expand on my earlier statement. I believe you can do the following:
Hand 1: Jotungrip+Meteor mode (2handed) OR Jotungrip+Fortress mode (reach weapon)
Hand 2: Jotungrip+Meteor mode (2handed) OR Jotungrip+Fortress mode (reach weapon)

- Gauss


As far as I can tell, it depends on how you choose to interpret the interaction of these two descriptions (emphasis mine):

Meteor Hammer wrote:

You may use this weapon in two different ways:

Meteor: In meteor mode you use it as a double weapon.
Fortress: In fortress mode you cannot use it as a double weapon but gain reach and a +1 shield bonus to AC.

Double Weapons wrote:
A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

If you read the "as a double weapon" in both as describing a specific mechanic, then you can't use a meteor hammer in meteor mode in one hand:

meteor hammer = double weapon
in meteor mode = as a double weapon

A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon
=
A creature wielding a [Meteor Hammer] in one hand can't use it [in Meteor Mode].

I admit that it is an incredibly strict reading.


redward used a different method than I did (going to the one-hand example where I went to the two-handed example). However both result in the same mechanic.

CRB p141 wrote:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

This covers both of the following examples:

First bolding: Medium 2handed-double weapon being used two-handed (since you cannot use it one handed)
Second bolding: Small 2handed-double weapon (downsized to 'one handed' due to being undersized) cannot be used in one hand and still be double weapon.

The one element we disagree on is the summary. Yes, you CAN use a meteor hammer in meteor mode in the above example. Meteor mode is 'double weapon' at which point all rules regarding double weapons (using a double weapon 2handed but only one end, or using a small 2handed double weapon 1handed but only one end) apply.

- Gauss

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Why would wield a Meteor Hammer in each hand in different modes, with Jotungrip, be any different than a four handed alchemist wielding two Meteor Hammers in different modes?


It wouldn't, as that seems to be supported by this forum at least regarding the four handed alchemist. BUT to wield FOUR meteor hammers would require gm fiat, as vestigial limb states that it cannot get extra attacks and that means it dose not qualify for multi-weapon fighting.
In other methods tho, using 4 arms to hold say, two 2 handed weapons and then two-weapon fighting would work, same as using 2 limbs to hold a weapon and using another to hold a shield. Lastly you could wield a two-handed weapon and grapple without penalty as you still have 2 hands free. The main thing is that you do not 'gain' any extra attacks or actions just because you have the extra limbs.


Gauss wrote:
The one element we disagree on is the summary. Yes, you CAN use a meteor hammer in meteor mode in the above example. Meteor mode is 'double weapon' at which point all rules regarding double weapons (using a double weapon 2handed but only one end, or using a small 2handed double weapon 1handed but only one end) apply.

Let me be clear on something: I don't particularly want to be right on this. I'm almost certainly wrong in terms of intent. I'm going to clarify my reading on this one more time and then hopefully drop out of the discussion as I feel this has been beaten to death.

Double Weapons wrote:
A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

The bolded text is the problem. Now most of you are arguing that all "as a double weapon" means is that one can use the weapon to make an attack with each end. If that's the case, the wording should probably be changed to:

Quote:
When wielding a double weapon in one hand, only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

But as written, a double weapon cannot be used as a double weapon in one hand.

Really, the double weapon entry probably needs a FAQ. Or at least a SAQ (sporadically asked question).


Redward, I think we are stating much the same but arriving at the somewhat different conclusions. I was stating that Meteor Mode is a double weapon which is THEN used as a two-handed (one end) weapon (by the rules you can do this).

So we have: Two-Handed Double weapon -> Two-handed 'one' weapon -> One-handed 'one' weapon (via Jotungrip).

Thus, can a person use a double weapon (ANY double weapon) in a single hand as a single weapon via Jotungrip? YES.

Can a person use a double weapon (ANY double weapon) in a single hand as a double weapon via Jotungrip? NO. (We agree on this point Redward)

Thus:
In Meteor Mode we find a Meteor Hammer can be used one-handed (via Jotungrip) but only attack with one end.
In Fortress Mode we find a Meteor Hammer can be used one-handed (via Jotungrip).

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

In Meteor Mode we find a Meteor Hammer can be used one-handed (via Jotungrip) but only attack with one end.

In Fortress Mode we find a Meteor Hammer can be used one-handed (via Jotungrip).

Right. Except for this:

Meteor Hammer wrote:
Meteor: In meteor mode you use it as a double weapon.

And again, if we are being absolutely literal, that means meteor mode is not an option when wielded with one hand.

You're saying "as a double weapon" is okay as long as you're only using one end. I'm saying "as a double weapon" is prohibited, full-stop. I think you're right. I just think it's written wrong.


Redward, you are absolutely correct in what that line states. We disagree that that line limits it to 'double weapon and only double weapon and you cannot use all the other rules regarding double weapons'.

I believe that with that line you apply ALL rules to double weapons. One of those rules specifically state that double wepaons can be used as two-handed one end weapons.

All Double weapons have the rule where you can use them as a Two-Handed 'single' weapon. Meteor mode did not state this otherwise.

Anyhow, this is the only point you and I disagree on. :)

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Redward, you are absolutely correct in what that line states. We disagree that that line limits it to 'double weapon and only double weapon and you cannot use all the other rules regarding double weapons'.

I believe that with that line you apply ALL rules to double weapons. One of those rules specifically state that double wepaons can be used as two-handed one end weapons.

All Double weapons have the rule where you can use them as a Two-Handed 'single' weapon. Meteor mode did not state this otherwise.

Anyhow, this is the only point you and I disagree on. :)

- Gauss

The real problem is the recursive definition (or lack thereof) for a double weapon used as a double weapon. It should be changed or clarified.


Aren't definitions the problem in most of D&D/PF?

- Gauss

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, redward, although you disagree, you believe a Meteor Hammer wielded in Meteor mode, cannot be used as a two handed weapon, to say, get x1.5 str on damage?
This would mean, as you read RAW, that to use a Meteor Hammer, to power attack for a -1 to +3 ratio, you must wield it in Fortress mode?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, redward, although you disagree, you believe a Meteor Hammer wielded in Meteor mode, cannot be used as a two handed weapon, to say, get x1.5 str on damage?

This would mean, as you read RAW, that to use a Meteor Hammer, to power attack for a -1 to +3 ratio, you must wield it in Fortress mode?
Meteor Hammer wrote:

You may use this weapon in two different ways:

Meteor: In meteor mode you use it as a double weapon.
Fortress: In fortress mode you cannot use it as a double weapon but gain reach and a +1 shield bonus to AC.

So, no, you can't use it as a two-handed weapon in Meteor mode. I assume you're going somewhere with this.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I am just looking to be sure I fully understand your stance on RAW.
I already know your stance on RAI.


Let us simplify this: Redward, do you agree that the following options for Double Weapons exist?

Double Weapon options:
A) May make attacks with both ends as per two weapon fighting.
B) May make attacks with one end as per two-handed fighting.
C) A medium creature using either a small two-handed double weapon may make attacks with one end as per one-handed fighting.

CRB p141 wrote:

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Option A is normal usage.

Option B is the first bolding.
Option C is the second bolding.

If you agree the options for double weapons exist then we can proceed to whether or not those options apply to the Meteor Hammer.

Do they apply:

The Meteor Hammer makes a very simple statement regarding double weapon: 'you use it as a double weapon'. Since use as a double weapon includes two-handed (one end) use and includes one-handed (one end) use then it follows that the Meteor Mode includes them as well. There is NOTHING to state that it does not include those other primary functions of double weapons.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:


CRB p141 wrote:

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Option A is normal usage.

Option B is the first bolding.
Option C is the second bolding

Option C is not available because a double weapon can't be used as a double weapon in one hand. As written, the only way to use a double weapon in one hand is as a two-handed weapon. I know that doesn't make sense. But here's how it works:

1. You can use a double weapon in one of two ways: as a two-handed weapon (AATHW) or as a double weapon (AADW).
2. When using a double weapon in one hand, you can't use it AADW.
3. This leaves AATHW as the only option left.

Think of it this way:

When using a quarterstaff AATHW, you hold it at one end and swing. When using it AADW, you hold it at two points in the middle, alternating each hand as a pivot point and the other as the driver.

Now if you're holding a small quarterstaff in one hand, you can still hold it at one end and swing. But you can't hold it at two points with one hand. Could you hold it in the middle and swing it? Well, yeah, but you won't achieve any meaningful level of force. When you take your one attack (because you can only attack with one end in a round), you're not using it AADW with one attack. You're using it AATHW. With one hand.


I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. You are saying you can hold a small quarterstaff in one hand and then swing with one end. So am I. That IS option C exactly as I stated above.

Just because a Double Weapon is not being used AS a double weapon does not mean it is no longer a double weapon. Option C is part of the double weapon rules. (Note: Option C as I stated above should not have the word 'either'. That was a relic from a previous sentance version that I failed to delete.)

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Let us simplify this: Redward, do you agree that the following options for Double Weapons exist?

Double Weapon options:
A) May make attacks with both ends as per two weapon fighting.
B) May make attacks with one end as per two-handed fighting.
C) A medium creature using either a small two-handed double weapon may make attacks with one end as per one-handed fighting.

CRB p141 wrote:

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Option A is normal usage.

Option B is the first bolding.
Option C is the second bolding.

If you agree the options for double weapons exist then we can proceed to whether or not those options apply to the Meteor Hammer.

** spoiler omitted **

- Gauss

The Meteor mode option was poorly written, but I think we can all agree that RAI:

1. In Fortress mode you hold the Meteor Hammer with two hands to attack with one end. You hold it as you would a two handed reach weapon, with one hand near the middle of the weapon and one hand close to the butt of the weapon. This allows you to use your main hand to attack with reach and allows your off-hand near the "butt" of the weapon to be used as if you were holding a buckler/small shield (thus the +1 to AC).

2. In meteor mode you hold the Meteor Hammer as you would any other double weapon to two weapon fight with it. (At two points equal distance from the center, allowing you to hit with each end like you would a Dire Flail)

Meteor Hammer wrote:

You may use this weapon in two different ways:
Meteor: In meteor mode you use it as a double weapon.
Fortress: In fortress mode you cannot use it as a double weapon but gain reach and a +1 shield bonus to AC.

I believe the intent of the "Meteor" mode passage is to say that you can two weapon fight with it, because if you look at "Fortress" mode it is already your "Option B" way of using it, so "Meteor" mode would be "Option A".

The way I see it if you use Jotungrip with two Meteor Hammers you would have to have both in "Fortress" mode (double weapon "Option B") because you cannot TWF (double weapon "option A" AKA "Meteor" mode) with both ends of the same Meteor Hammer if you hold it in one hand.

Edit: now that I read this I begin to see RAW "Option C": if you are medium, you hold a small sized Meteor Hammer wrapped around one hand. It is now a one handed weapon w/o reach and w/o the +1 AC. If you add Jotungrip it is now medium weapon w/o reach ect.. held in one hand to attack adjacent targets. You could then Jotungrip the other whole Meteor Hammer in "Fortress" mode to attack at reach. (Though to use both in the same round you would still take the TWF penalty)

(The above option looks very similar to how a Dwarf with Dwarven Dorn Dergor Master would TWF while holding and a light shield and a Dwarven Dorn-Dergor.)


Gauss wrote:
I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. You are saying you can hold a small quarterstaff in one hand and then swing with one end. So am I. That IS option C exactly as I stated above.

Except we're not saying the same thing. You're saying you can use it as a double weapon in one hand as long as you only make one attack. I'm saying you can't use it as a double weapon in one hand at all, because using it as a double weapon is a different form of wielding the weapon altogether, and one which requires two hands.

If you're using the double weapon in one hand, you have to be using it as a two-handed weapon (my read). Which matters for things like the Meteor Hammer where the different uses have different mechanics.

And that means that when using a Meteor Hammer in one hand it has to be used in Fortress mode, with all that implies (Reach, Shield bonus, etc.).


I am not saying you 'use it as a double weapon' I am saying it IS a double weapon being used as a one handed weapon. It is using the rules FOR double weapons to accomplish this. The rules you and I are both quoting are from those rules.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

I am not saying you 'use it as a double weapon' I am saying it IS a double weapon being used as a one handed weapon. It is using the rules FOR double weapons to accomplish this. The rules you and I are both quoting are from those rules.

- Gauss

But if you're not using it as a double weapon, you can't use it in meteor mode.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Why is using it as a double weapon disallowing all uses of a double weapon?


Redward, show me a rule anywhere that states that Meteor mode is exempt from ALL of the other double weapon rules. It is apparent that you are seeing double weapon as 'only using it as a double weapon which is two attacks' rather than what the full double weapon rules allow for.

Anyhow, to answer the BBT's question: I would allow Meteor Hammer to be used as I stated above. This is in accordance with the double weapon rules previously quoted.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:
Redward, show me a rule anywhere that states that Meteor mode is exempt from ALL of the other double weapon rules. It is apparent that you are seeing double weapon as 'only using it as a double weapon which is two attacks' rather than what the full double weapon rules allow for.

I think what he's saying is not that double weapon means two attacks, as that double weapon means "anything in the rules about double weapons, whether it be TWF or 2HF".

Basically, it seems to come down to the question of whether a double weapon still counts as a double weapon if you can't wield it as a double weapon.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, one handed weapons still count as one handed weapon when wielded with two hands. Trip weapons are still trip weapons even when not used to trip.


Bobson, I'd agree with you except that he said something different. He basically said that when you are not (not cannot) wielding a double weapon AS a double weapon then it is not a double weapon. I say it is still a double weapon being put to a use (two-handed or one-handed use) that is listed in the double weapon rules.

- Gauss


Once again (although I really feel I am repeating myself here):

Double weapons have three method of use:

Method 1: regular Double weapon (2 ends attack @1x and 0.5x strength bonus respectively, requires two hands)

Method 2: two-handed weapon (1 end attacks @1.5x strength bonus, requires two hands)

Method 3: one-handed weapon (1 end attacks @1x strength bonus, requires two hands, can only be done with an undersized weapon or with an ability like Jotungrip)

Nothing in Meteor Hammer states that it cannot be used in any of those three methods. What it does say is that it is either a double weapon (which then uses all double weapon rules of which those three methods are a part) or a reach weapon (which then follows all reach weapon rules).

- Gauss


Bobson wrote:
Basically, it seems to come down to the question of whether a double weapon still counts as a double weapon if you can't wield it as a double weapon.

This.

Are you guys saying you can use a meteor hammer in meteor mode and not use it as a double weapon?


I am saying that yes: you can use a meteor hammer in meteor mode and follow all the rules of double weapons. This includes Methods 1, 2, and 3 in my last post.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

I am saying that yes: you can use a meteor hammer in meteor mode and follow all the rules of double weapons. This includes Methods 1, 2, and 3 in my last post.

- Gauss

That's not what I asked. I asked if you can use a meteor hammer in meteor mode and not use it as a double weapon.

Method 3 precludes the use of the weapon as a double weapon. Explicitly.


Yes, you may use the hammer in meteor mode as a double weapon and either: attack with two ends (twohanded), attack with one end (twohanded), or attack with one end (one-handed). All three are uses of a double weapon.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Yes, you may use the hammer in meteor mode as a double weapon and either: attack with two ends (twohanded), attack with one end (twohanded), or attack with one end (one-handed). All three are uses of a double weapon.

- Gauss

Take out the bolded portion and you are correct. Leave it in and you can only do the first.


We will have to agree to disagree. You see 'use as a double weapon' to mean: attack with each end. I see it as: use the double weapon rules (all of them, including the ones where you can attack with one end either two-handed or one-handed).

Anyhow, we have gone around in circles enough. I have given my opinion.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

We will have to agree to disagree. You see 'use as a double weapon' to mean: attack with each end. I see it as: use the double weapon rules (all of them, including the ones where you can attack with one end either two-handed or one-handed).

Anyhow, we have gone around in circles enough. I have given my opinion.

- Gauss

Fair enough.

Dark Archive

There seems to be some disagreement above about whether a M(edium) creature with a M double-weapon can hold it in one hand and make an attack with one end.


Sigard Spleenbiter wrote:
There seems to be some disagreement above about whether a M(edium) creature with a M double-weapon can hold it in one hand and make an attack with one end.

It seems that they are arguing more specifically to the meteor hammer. Everyon seems to agree that the rules allow using a double weapon in one or two hands while only using one end. Some people seem to think that while using meteor mode the meteor hammer becomes a double weapon and is subject to the same rules while others think that while in meteor mode the hammer is allowed to be used as a double weapon and is subject to only the rules concerning the double weapon portion of the weapon. The second argument posits that if the hammer is not being used as a double weapon, i.e. using both ends, then it is not allowed to be in meteor mode.

The rules seem to be just vague enough that there is not one clear correct answer.


Shinigaze wrote:
Sigard Spleenbiter wrote:
There seems to be some disagreement above about whether a M(edium) creature with a M double-weapon can hold it in one hand and make an attack with one end.

It seems that they are arguing more specifically to the meteor hammer. Everyon seems to agree that the rules allow using a double weapon in one or two hands while only using one end. Some people seem to think that while using meteor mode the meteor hammer becomes a double weapon and is subject to the same rules while others think that while in meteor mode the hammer is allowed to be used as a double weapon and is subject to only the rules concerning the double weapon portion of the weapon. The second argument posits that if the hammer is not being used as a double weapon, i.e. using both ends, then it is not allowed to be in meteor mode.

The rules seem to be just vague enough that there is not one clear correct answer.

Well put.


meteor hammer, in meteor mode = a double weapon = is allowed to be wielded in one hand using one end

Without an exception in the meteor hammer description for the general double weapon rules, they apply the same way they do to all double weapons.

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