This is a new thread, to discuss the character Ameiko Kaijitsu. Impressions, complications, criticism and praise.
Also on topic:
1) How the npc has interacted with parties and been portrayed?
2) Problems and big events involving the character (ADD SPOILERS).
3) Criticisms and if something felt off.
4) Is she a Mary Sue? What else fits?
I started this thread again, because my posting was completely blocked on the old thread. Yep, I started but was not allowed to continue... until now.
What is dead may never die. Fictional characters cannot get hurt feelings.
A possible problem occurs to me, how would a hot-headed barkeeper and adventurer woman, used to getting her way, go in her ancestral Asian culture? The "be demure and submissive" command is easily broken, wouldn't her personality get in the way of her "destiny?"
What flies in one place is a faux pas in another. Strengths in one place are weaknesses elsewhere.
(I'm off to work now peeps, back on later. If I am silenced for evermore here, the paizo ninjas got me.)
somebody has a crush on ameiko;). i rather like ameiko and the rest.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The PbP Jade Regent game I am currently in is still in the Brinestump & my character met them there (long story, tangential to questions), so I haven't really met Ameiko yet. The GM handled her fairly well in the starter scene by my reading.
As far as your other questions, Actually I would argue that Ameiko isn't necessarily used to getting her way.
Examples from her history, warning: RotRL spoilers involved.
1) She decides to become an adventurer & her entire adventuring company dies, rather horribly, with Sandru & her the only survivors, including the man who was her 'first love'. Tangentially, that is a big part of the reason she is so difficult to seduce.
2) She attempts a reconciliation between her father & her half-brother (not her father's son) & it ends with the two of them coming to blows & her brother inadvertently attacking her.
3)
All in all, not a very good track record for 'getting her way'. Which actually makes for an excellent 'stumbling block' for her (& by extension the PC's) to overcome. She has had so many things important to her go horribly, horribly wrong; the fact that she has the courage to make this attempt, in the face of such a high price for failure, even higher (or at least broader) than any she has faced before, can be rather inspiring.
As far as the 'demure & submissive' part goes, a great thing about being a , is that you frequently wind up with lots of courtiers & sycophants who are likely to swear, swear, SWEAR that of course you are the soul of taste, munificence & decorum. People tend to remember what the last guy was like in these situations. More importantly, they tend to remember what happened to the last guy...
Being the guy who removed the violent decadent thug who preceded you, is rarely a weakness anywhere.
Ameiko isn't the one who will have problems with fitting the assumed mold, her heirs are the ones who will have to worry about fitting the mold assigned to them.
Is Ameiko a 'Mary-Sue'? Oy. Short answer, no. Long answer, as has been pointed out , when you can get everyone to agree on just what a 'Mary-Sue' is, than I will respond to that question with something other than the literary equivalent of a facepalm.
If you couldn't tell, I was being sarcastic there.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A possible problem occurs to me, how would a hot-headed barkeeper and adventurer woman, used to getting her way, go in her ancestral Asian culture? The "be demure and submissive" command is easily broken, wouldn't her personality get in the way of her "destiny?"
What flies in one place is a faux pas in another. Strengths in one place are weaknesses elsewhere.
I changed a majority of the texture of the last two modules for my players because once we crossed the Crown and got through the Forest of Spirits to Minkai, we all realized we absolutely hated Asian culture. This is one of the big things I had to edit-- to introduce characters who were good who were held back from trying to do good or too crippled to act, instead of... groveling and content waiting for a saviour figure to help them.
Nothing ground my expectations to the ground more than their interpretation of the riddle Hirobashi poses to the PCs (which I had the Jinushigami of the Forest of Spirits pose instead, earlier)-- which was to kill the lord, because he was evil and a jerk, let the peasant live and leave because he's a jerk. Nobody was really in the mindset to "kill the lord and commit suicide," and since then, they definitely haven't been.
That awkward moment eh ice titan? I'm a Japanophile and past student of Asian studies, but I can get it.
Irnk, good point on her first love, no wonder she is so difficult to seduce, by the numbers. She has a superstition around celibacy with other adventurers maybe?
On the demureness, if you don't fit with a culture you are in part trying to take over and lead, your claim is likely to be rebuffed by conservatives, and you could really face assassination or public shaming if successful, or on your way there. You were great, but you are not what we need/clearly a foreigner in attitudes. This can add plenty to a game, it doesn't have to be avoided.
It can add to a game, but she comes in to save the land from a tyrant and she is destined by her bloodline to rule.
The common folk can take a lot of strangeness from their rulers if it can be credibly blamed on "bad advisors" ( and I am quite sure that strange foreigners can be counted in that category ). The nobility is, of course, another thing entirely and I can see those assassinations and attempts at public shaming coming from there. Although I wouldn't count on a high level bard being easily shamed. ^^
If you aren't there to counter the effects, you have to pick up the pieces afterwards. Damn required propaganda victories.
Courtiers: they can actually get things done.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The common folk can take a lot of strangeness from their rulers if it can be credibly blamed on "bad advisors"
A point of contention for my group was that it seemed like there was an abundance of evil rulers of Minkai for me to talk about due to the information in the sixth book, but I could only reliably mention one good ruler when asked. My party immediately assumed every emperor of Minkai was evil and honestly I had no information to try to combat that notion with.
Heh. I can see how that would raise some concerns. ^^
Time to bring down the evil shogunate.
Just had the oddest thought. The good guys win, a good ruler is put in place. Then you realise, the people liked and preferred the reliability of an evil ruler. That could be so difficult to re-educate everyone. Judges keep handing down lawful evil punishments with lawful evil legal codes. Damn administration.
I think the way the "evil shogunate" would attack her would be by inferring that she spent too much time amongst the gaijin whose farts smelled like butter and who wear their shoes inside and don't bathe frequently.
Bringing all these foreign ideas into Minkai.......you might end up with Minkai teens head banging to heavy metal music or worse.....
Agreed, except for the last part, it shall be called the era of heavy metal Kaijitsu.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Time to bring down the evil shogunate.
Just had the oddest thought. The good guys win, a good ruler is put in place. Then you realise, the people liked and preferred the reliability of an evil ruler. That could be so difficult to re-educate everyone. Judges keep handing down lawful evil punishments with lawful evil legal codes. Damn administration.
Actually, there was a Dr. Doom story kinda like this.
A few years earlier, the FF wupped Doom and helped another guy take over Latveria; he was kinda a douche though, and Doom came back and kicked his arse. The people were ebullient, for though Doom was stern, his lawful evil was fair and he truly loved Latveria and kept the peace.
Come to think of it,....running a country is kinda hard compared to running a bar.
Maybe she'll screw up the whole thing and Minkai will be plunged into turmoil, and beg a lawful evil shogun to restore order.
Oops, I just wrote Star Wars again. Owell, he ripped off Hidden Fortress or something.......
Sorry to hear about that ice titan. When a party declares all members of a race or sub-category of a race evil, the situation can get tricky. I've seen it happen with a drunken master character I gamed with. He declared all lizard-men evil because one elder didn't treat him well. Granted, the elder was a historian/curator and the drunken master dropped afew historical artifacts but... ah well. Sometimes, parties can be incredibly quick to judge or become paranoid. While it can be fun, it does also destroy opportunities the party could have had in the near future. Anyway, good luck with it. Hope it works out.
Time to bring down the evil shogunate.
Just had the oddest thought. The good guys win, a good ruler is put in place. Then you realise, the people liked and preferred the reliability of an evil ruler. That could be so difficult to re-educate everyone. Judges keep handing down lawful evil punishments with lawful evil legal codes. Damn administration.
SIMPSONS DID IT!!!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'll add to the complication list for the campaign which I GM:
Thoughts on how to manage this?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'll add to the complication list for the campaign which I GM:
** spoiler omitted **
Thoughts on how to manage this?
Please run with it, please! That is the biggest development in having pc bodyguards that can happen. If they are clerics, paladins, fanatics they can bring in foreign faith and ideas and ride the destined character as a puppetmaster. Go with it I say.
Subversion, alteration, transmutation.
Interesting situation there Tommy GM. You could change the overall plot of the adventure as stated by Grey or you could run the jade regent campaign as per normal. If you choose to run it as the AP details, throw in a short sequel to the game. After Ameiko is on the throne, have the brothers make diplomacy checks or other social checks if they want to sway certain npcs to their side. The mission then becomes "how do the two brothers re-create Cheliax in Minkai." Could be a very memorable campaign.
heh heh:
re Tommy's suggestion;
I'm remembering Shogun where they made the samurai step on the crucifix to make sure there weren't any turncoats........this game they'd have to stamp on a goat headed pentagram......
3.5 Loyalist - I'm definitely going to run with it!
Equalizer/Grey - I think there will be some significant changes starting with the Forest of Spirits but increasing significantly in Tide of Honor.
Memorable if I can pull it off...
Oh god yes to the last one. That is intrigue, where you turn against an old ally for the benjamins and POWER!
Yep. Those are some very plausible ideas. Good luck with it. Hope you guys have a blast.
Destined means nothing in the face of intelligent evil!
Man I want to play jade regent as an evil char now.
Geraint,
To their credit the two players have put a lot of thought into this nefarious subversion of the APs stated objective and I'm looking forward to how it plays out!
Well, don't forget that the rest of your players ( unless you only have those two ) may have different ideas and don't steamroll them with that plot just because you like it. Nobody likes GMs pets.
Magnuskn
Yes - solid advice. Fortunately, the overall group of six players is cohesive on a personal level both at the table and away from the table. In addition, everyone is on-board with this as a plot development.
Good luck on that account. It can result in some heavy table drama and not only in-game. But maybe I am giving your group not enough credit. As I said, good luck, I hope things work out for you and your players.
It'd be more compelling if, while seducing her, he managed to actually with the object of his manipulation. Talk about causing issues. Even better, if his brother does. Party war!
It'd be more compelling if, while seducing her, he managed to actually with the object of his manipulation. Talk about causing issues. Even better, if his brother does. Party war!
Actually, I would say the only way it would have a shot at working, would be if he was in love with her. Or just outright couped her, which has it's own dangers.
I believe the plan is to:
As it stands now (the party is just now heading to Brinewall) I see a few potential outcomes:
1) Full Success - Ameiko converts, takes the Jade throne, Asmodeus becomes the state religon, and Minkian traditionalists begin to foment rebellion immediately.
2) Complete Failure - Ameiko flees the party, continues on to Minkai, and multiple competing factions arise. This gets messy fast.
3) Ameiko the Realist - realizing the value of a hellish partnership against the power of the Oni, she strikes a deal and provides a seat of power to the Asmodean agent thus establishing another "beachhead" for Hell on Golarian. The most likely outcome, IMHO.
4) Ameiko - My True Love: the player determines his character really is in love with Ameiko and abandons Asmodeus for her. Unlikely, but a GM can dream...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see Ameiko, a CG character and surprisingly devout follower of Desna, "realizing the value of hellish partnership". Really, I don't. Don't let high diplomacy rolls replace the personality of the NPC, that is poor GM'ing.
I don't see Ameiko, a CG character and surprisingly devout follower of Desna, "realizing the value of hellish partnership". Really, I don't. Don't let high diplomacy rolls replace the personality of the NPC, that is poor GM'ing.
She's a devotee of Shelyn.
Or Shelyn, I don't have the books before me right now. In any case, a CG goddess.
Or Shelyn, I don't have the books before me right now. In any case, a CG goddess.
Huh? Last tme I checked, Shelyn was NG.
Or Shelyn, I don't have the books before me right now. In any case, a CG goddess.Huh? Last tme I checked, Shelyn was NG.
Oh, bloody hell. I am at work right now, so not really in a position to check out details. My main point still stands.
It makes for a lot of boring stories of generally good, well-intentioned people don't consider "dealing with the devil". At least temporarily or after their failed will saves. Have you never heard of a Faustian pact?
Also the nitpicking made me laugh.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It makes for a lot of "GM fiat" horror stories where the GM overwrote the personality of an established NPC to get his jollies, too. I get the general impression that Ameikos conversion to diabolism already is set in the mind of our GM here.
Anyway, it is his game, I am just bringing my own bias in here.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
One of her HATE buttons is saying ANYTHING against Shelyn's worship. Conversion to Asmodeus is, of course, possible, but highly unlikely and the attempt will probably result in some... uhh... interesting reactions all around. Remember, the rest of the starting NPCs are Good as well, and really (in a platonic way) love Ameiko. I think this, in itself, is a factor that some GMs forget when going left-field with the story: the majority of the major NPCs shouldn't be tree stumps and good friends don't let friends become puppets for villains, if they can help it. ;)
And as a whole, the group of NPCs has a strong NG/CG bent to it, too. It makes the whole idea of a LE group member gaining much traction just the more unlikely.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
No diplomacy rolls for this - just straight up role-playing. Conversion to diabolism from my perspective seems extremely unlikely given Ameiko's personality and background - pushing a rock up a hill against the will of the gods kind of unlikely.
So, not set in my mind as to what the outcome will be, which is why I've posted here to get some input and advise on how to best GM the players goals. Their actions will ultimately determine the campaign outcomes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
RE: the original questions...
Ameiko is a free spirit who has made a habit of dodging responsibility. Yes, her home life was boring and her father hard, but she ran away. Her foray into adventuring was tragic, and she never got back to it. Instead, she set up a tavern and relaxed. Years have passed, and she's grown more mature with age, but she's still young.
With the above in mind, the crushing weight of responsibility scares the s&+%e out of her. She knows the 'good' thing to do, for the millions in Minkai, is to go there, claim the birthright and defeat the Five Storms. BUT, she is not mentally ready for the fact that people WILL die for her, just because she exists! AND she's probably never going back to Sandpoint... AND, her best friends/family are stuck on that ride with her. That's heavy stuff for someone who just wanted to enjoy the journey with friends.
My game's Ameiko actually tried to sneak away and catch a boat south out of Kalsgard, thinking if she dropped her identity and the Amatatsu seal into the ocean, maybe live anonymously in Sargava or some faroff place, she could preclude the inevitable. More importantly to her, she would sacrifice her own happiness so that her friends (the PCs and NPCs) could regain their 'normal' lives.
She knows what she is supposed to do, but she's very reluctant.