Ameiko Kaijitsu: Impressions, Complications, Criticism and Praise


Jade Regent

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@ Tommy GM: You are asking about ways the Asmodean PC's can improve thier chances. Well, the first thing they really need to do is study thier history. Why/How House Thrune was able to seize control of/convert Cheliax, which means you need to decide why/how House Thrune was successful. In all likelyhood, unfortunately for you & the brothers BAD, it didn't happen in one generation. Which means their greatest chance at success is the long haul & by long haul I mean setting things up for future generations. Get an Asmodean presence set up, things like a Monastery, cede the Asmodeon Church responsibility for reclaiming the northernmost territory from the Barbarians, things like that. Remember, it took Housr Thrune at least two or three generations of almost total anarchy to claim Cheliax. Minkai hasn't seen anything like that bad yet.

Another thing for you to consider, the Amatatsu Seal is a literal gift from the gods of Minkai & I strongly doubt they/she will allow an encroachment by Asmodeus without repercussions. Have the Bad Boys even encountered the Seal yet? If not, their first encounter may come as an unfortunate surprise to them.


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Suishen also is something to take into account.

The Exchange

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Converting Ameiko to Asmodeus is extremely unlikely, but I'm going to go against the grain and tell you to let it happen. The players think it would be fun, and you, yourself, seem to think it would be fun, so don't make it harder than it needs to be. If the players put in fifteen levels of effort towards this outcome, they deserve it.

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
@ Tommy GM: You are asking about ways the Asmodean PC's can improve thier chances. Well, the first thing they really need to do is study thier history. Why/How House Thrune was able to seize control of/convert Cheliax, which means you need to decide why/how House Thrune was successful. In all likelyhood, unfortunately for you & the brothers BAD, it didn't happen in one generation. Which means their greatest chance at success is the long haul & by long haul I mean setting things up for future generations. Get an Asmodean presence set up, things like a Monastery, cede the Asmodeon Church responsibility for reclaiming the northernmost territory from the Barbarians, things like that. Remember, it took Housr Thrune at least two or three generations of almost total anarchy to claim Cheliax. Minkai hasn't seen anything like that bad yet.

Minkai isn't in anarchy, though--it's brutally oppressed by an illegitimate ruler. While an Asmodean dynasty might not be less oppressive, it would be entirely legitimate, and since much of Minkai is obsessed with duty, that gives it a major advantage.

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Another thing for you to consider, the Amatatsu Seal is a literal gift from the gods of Minkai & I strongly doubt they/she will allow an encroachment by Asmodeus without repercussions. Have the Bad Boys even encountered the Seal yet? If not, their first encounter may come as an unfortunate surprise to them.

The gods are ok with letting the bad guys hold onto the other four seals, and have let the Five Storms take over Minkai with no repercussions. In fact, Minkai has had plenty of evil rulers in its past--not only would an Asmodean dynasty fit right in, it would probably be supported at first, being more legitimate.

magnuskn wrote:
Suishen also is something to take into account.

It's pretty easy to get around. It's Suishen's duty to serve the PCs regardless of their alignment, as long as they don't betray the family or prove unworthy as an heir. There's no reason that Asmodeus-worshippers would be unworthy unless you say so.


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Uh, two of the players think it is fun. What the others think may be a whole other matter. ^^

And "unless you say so" is nothing but a code-word for "GM fiat". Take into account the personality and actions of the two evil characters and react accordingly.

Hey, I'm not saying that they cannot succeed. But if they do, it has to be by good roleplaying and not only because the GM liked the idea and overruled the desires of the other players and the personality of Ameiko, Shalelu, Koya, Sandru, Spivey, Helgarval, Suishen and other NPCs which would be heavily against such an outcome.


Ink: Good advise on comparison to Thrune/Cheliax. That will help me consider what success might look like. And...no, the party has not encountered the seal yet. I really like the idea of a rude surprise for the bad boys! Thank you.

LeadPal: I agree with your breakdown and the "Lawful" aspect of Asmodean rule (or some aspect of its authority) may be a welcome relief after the excesses of the Oni and the Five Storms for the people of Minkai.

Magnuskn: I don't wish to take the thread any further off topic nor am I trying to "pick a fight" - would you please tell me what "GM Fiat" means? I'm genuinely interested - perhaps there is a way to send mea message off this thread thru the forum?


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I don't think explaining "GM fiat" is too off-topic. Basically it is the GM imposing his own view of things on the players and NPCs, against actions by the players and established motivations of the NPCs.

An example would be you letting Ameiko fall easily for the manipulations of the two Asmodean player characters, even though her own established views show that she would be highly resistant to accepting any infernal help in her quest, to the point where ( at least I, and I accept that I bring my own biases into this ) it seems almost impossible for the two evil player characters to succeed in their plans, especially against the resistance of not only Ameiko but the above listed NPCs, which should be friendly with Ameiko. Not even to mention the other player characters, who are not evil aligned and might take a dim view of the ideas of the two Asmodeans.

If you push against all that and let the two players succeed too easily, that would be in my view GM fiat and/or favoritism. And, hey, the two might do just such a brilliant job that they do succeed, but I see that being a major problem down the road, because it will bring a lot of in-group tension. You don't want to have to replace two PCs on, say, the High Ice. ^^

Furthermore, I don't see the plan of those two guys succeeding without majorly sabotaging the efforts of the rest of the group ( because why would Ameiko accept any infernal help without things going pear-shaped? ) and that, once again, will cause tensions between the players.

Anyway, I am going on a tangent here. GM fiat is partly when you pick favorites in the group and treat their concerns with a higher priority than the other group members. It is also when your view of how things should be goes over what is established in the lore of the setting and characters, i.e. making Ameiko weak-willed enough to fall easily for the manipulations of the two Asmodeans and letting the other NPCs sit by idly while it is happening.

While I can do nothing more than do some long distance analysis of your motivations, what I saw so far is that you are very enthusiastic about the ideas of those two players and that kind of raises my internal alarms about how it will go down.


Well the oppisite is that if heels are dug in and Ameiko is utterly immune to such manipulation than the players are better off just making new characters. Otherwise, this can become somethign that can tear the group apart.


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I'd rather have an NPC be consistant in her/his personality than change it up severely to make two ( out of six ) players feel super-special about their almost impossible plan. As I said, I got my own biases. ;)

The Exchange

magnuskn wrote:
Uh, two of the players think it is fun. What the others think may be a whole other matter. ^^
Tommy GM wrote:
Fortunately, the overall group of six players is cohesive on a personal level both at the table and away from the table. In addition, everyone is on-board with this as a plot development.

Yeah, it's a different matter if it's just two guys trying to derail the game. But it sounds like most of the group is ok with it, so it's ok to use a little GM fiat to nudge it forward.

There is the matter of the one player who seems to be staunchly against it, but if it's just the one person playing the unfavourite, they are the problem.

But, mind you, I'm not at the table and don't know all the facts, so, eh.

magnuskn wrote:
Hey, I'm not saying that they cannot succeed. But if they do, it has to be by good roleplaying and not only because the GM liked the idea and overruled the desires of the other players and the personality of Ameiko, Shalelu, Koya, Sandru, Spivey, Helgarval, Suishen and other NPCs which would be heavily against such an outcome.

I think I saw you say somewhere that you don't change adventures that you run. Do you feel adventures actually shouldn't be changed? I'm honestly curious--it's a viewpoint I've seen but don't really understand.


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I simply got respect for the characters as written and don't think that they should be pre-compromised in their attitude, just because two players get their jollies out of playing evil.

That being said, I got major problems with evil player characters and don't allow them in my campaigns. So take that into account in as far as my personal bias in my opinion goes. ^^

Also, to clarify one more time on my "don't change the campaign" stance, that goes mostly for major changes in direction, like foregoing the trip over the high ice completely for a sea campaign to Minkai and other such stuff. I got no problem adding little things or having the players veer of target for a short time, I simply got no time anymore to work out what amounts to a semi-homebrewn campaign. I actually plan to add one or two levels to the AP when the players arrive in Tian-Xia, maybe using the Ruby Phoenix Tournament module.

Liberty's Edge

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In an attempt to get this thread a little more back on topic, I have evidence that backs up the criticism that the whole adventure path seems predicated on the concept of "hot chick asks you to do something stupid". In Night of Frozen Shadows, the PCs get an automatic +1 bump in their relationship score with Ameiko for gaining at least 30 Notoriety Points. And what's the easiest/fastest way to accumulate Notoriety Points? Doing a lot of stupid things that will get the players a lot of negative attention, such as going around talking about how they're Amatatsu scions and openly attacking the Rimerunner's guild hall. It pretty much comes across as "Ameiko likes it when you do stupid things".


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The AP demands of players flat-out to have their player characters make connections with the four NPCs ( not only Ameiko ) and have those player characters be ready to go on a big journey. As adventurers.

Players who build characters which don't fit into that concept are at fault themselves, not the NPCs. That Ameiko is a bit of a thrill-seeker is written down in her background, so I don't find it surprising that she'd appreciate some boldness on part of the PCs. That doesn't mean that she'd openly ask them to do stupid stuff.

Liberty's Edge

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Your defense of this AP--which pretty much boils down to "if your characters don't love-love-LOVE the NPCs, you're doing it wrong"--rings very hollow to me. Players aren't stupid. They read the PGs and consider the advice therein. When they follow that advice and still have an unsatisfactory gaming experience, who's to blame then? You seem to think it's the players.


Copernicus Mandrake I wrote:
In an attempt to get this thread a little more back on topic, I have evidence that backs up the criticism that the whole adventure path seems predicated on the concept of "hot chick asks you to do something stupid". In Night of Frozen Shadows, the PCs get an automatic +1 bump in their relationship score with Ameiko for gaining at least 30 Notoriety Points. And what's the easiest/fastest way to accumulate Notoriety Points? Doing a lot of stupid things that will get the players a lot of negative attention, such as going around talking about how they're Amatatsu scions and openly attacking the Rimerunner's guild hall. It pretty much comes across as "Ameiko likes it when you do stupid things".

Well they don't have to do that. 30 NP for just a measly +1 on the relationship score? "Ameiko, you are my friend, but I am not going to advertise our presence here. We have more important things to worry about."

The characters will end up doing some babysitting, but curing Ameriko of her boldness and in a sense, acting more like an empress-to-be can be a theme.


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Copernicus Mandrake I wrote:
Your defense of this AP--which pretty much boils down to "if your characters don't love-love-LOVE the NPCs, you're doing it wrong"--rings very hollow to me. Players aren't stupid. They read the PGs and consider the advice therein. When they follow that advice and still have an unsatisfactory gaming experience, who's to blame then? You seem to think it's the players.

Umm, yeah... its the same as a player making a horse-based cavalier for S&S = they'll probably be disappointed. In JR the PCs don't have to LOVE the NPCs, they can be rivals, but there is an assumption of friendly companionship going into the campaign.


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Copernicus Mandrake I wrote:
Your defense of this AP--which pretty much boils down to "if your characters don't love-love-LOVE the NPCs, you're doing it wrong"--rings very hollow to me. Players aren't stupid. They read the PGs and consider the advice therein. When they follow that advice and still have an unsatisfactory gaming experience, who's to blame then? You seem to think it's the players.

How about you don't assign things to me which I've never said? "Make connections" does not imply that the player characters must love the NPCs, it implies that they have a pre-established relationship with them, which can also be antagonistic.

But, yes, the players guide flat-out tells the GM and the players that the characters should be motivated by that relationship to follow Ameiko & Company on a grand journey to the other side of the world. If players still make characters which run counter to this basic premise, it is either because the GM didn't communicate this very important point clearly enough or because the player/s ignored it on purpose. And in the latter case, I very much would blame the player/s if he/him/they didn't enjoy the AP, due to the poor choice of basic premise for the character/s. Why wouldn't I?


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

@ Tommy GM: You are asking about ways the Asmodean PC's can improve thier chances. Well, the first thing they really need to do is study thier history. Why/How House Thrune was able to seize control of/convert Cheliax, which means you need to decide why/how House Thrune was successful. In all likelyhood, unfortunately for you & the brothers BAD, it didn't happen in one generation. Which means their greatest chance at success is the long haul & by long haul I mean setting things up for future generations. Get an Asmodean presence set up, things like a Monastery, cede the Asmodeon Church responsibility for reclaiming the northernmost territory from the Barbarians, things like that. Remember, it took Housr Thrune at least two or three generations of almost total anarchy to claim Cheliax. Minkai hasn't seen anything like that bad yet.

Another thing for you to consider, the Amatatsu Seal is a literal gift from the gods of Minkai & I strongly doubt they/she will allow an encroachment by Asmodeus without repercussions. Have the Bad Boys even encountered the Seal yet? If not, their first encounter may come as an unfortunate surprise to them.

I did wonder if the seal would go, no, you and you are fine, you over there, Asmodeus guy, you don't get the seal of approval. Because if an agent is given it, and they start to set up the second coming of Thrune...


magnuskn wrote:
I'd rather have an NPC be consistant in her/his personality than change it up severely to make two ( out of six ) players feel super-special about their almost impossible plan. As I said, I got my own biases. ;)

Ameiko's personality isn't consistent though. She goes through a lot of change. The princess that wants to take back Minkai and restore it to stability and follow her ancestral destiny and rule, isn't the chaotic good barkeep despairing over lost adventurer friends.

She changes so much over the books, from what I have read, that evil pals could really shape her. If she refuses their help and the possibility of their influence, she could end up dead and Minkai still enslaved to the storms. Making the players a necessary evil.


magnuskn wrote:

I simply got respect for the characters as written and don't think that they should be pre-compromised in their attitude, just because two players get their jollies out of playing evil.

That being said, I got major problems with evil player characters and don't allow them in my campaigns. So take that into account in as far as my personal bias in my opinion goes. ^^

Also, to clarify one more time on my "don't change the campaign" stance, that goes mostly for major changes in direction, like foregoing the trip over the high ice completely for a sea campaign to Minkai and other such stuff. I got no problem adding little things or having the players veer of target for a short time, I simply got no time anymore to work out what amounts to a semi-homebrewn campaign. I actually plan to add one or two levels to the AP when the players arrive in Tian-Xia, maybe using the Ruby Phoenix Tournament module.

Not even neutral evil? Or lawful evil but allied to the other pcs interests? Awww, you are missing out.


Copernicus Mandrake I wrote:
Your defense of this AP--which pretty much boils down to "if your characters don't love-love-LOVE the NPCs, you're doing it wrong"--rings very hollow to me. Players aren't stupid. They read the PGs and consider the advice therein. When they follow that advice and still have an unsatisfactory gaming experience, who's to blame then? You seem to think it's the players.

I have found many npcs in the adventure paths to be unlikeable. Same with a friend of mine. No one will like them all, you are going to get rubbed the wrong way by some characters.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
I'd rather have an NPC be consistant in her/his personality than change it up severely to make two ( out of six ) players feel super-special about their almost impossible plan. As I said, I got my own biases. ;)

Ameiko's personality isn't consistent though. She goes through a lot of change. The princess that wants to take back Minkai and restore it to stability and follow her ancestral destiny and rule, isn't the chaotic good barkeep despairing over lost adventurer friends.

She changes so much over the books, from what I have read, that evil pals could really shape her. If she refuses their help and the possibility of their influence, she could end up dead and Minkai still enslaved to the storms. Making the players a necessary evil.

Hey, I voiced my dissent, but if the players are excellent at RP, maybe they can do it. But they and the GM should be aware that there will be major, major resistance from the NPCs. And a lot of the NPCs the group can pick up during their travels also are good-aligned. And there are the other players in the campaign to consider, too.

But, whatever. It's not my game.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Not even neutral evil? Or lawful evil but allied to the other pcs interests? Awww, you are missing out.

No, I seriously am not. I know my players. And myself as a GM.


Evil gives you more types of characters to play, and some will really fit into the harsh world of Golarion. Evil characters aren't always baby-killers, some are pushed to it, some find it easier, mercs can easily be evil, as can rogues that lived off the populace or rangers that protect the old places and kill all comers. What I'm saying is evil isn't always the enemy, evil can also be an ally.

On the npcs in jade regent, I think they would have a lot of resistance, especially the Desnan cleric, but some of them may not realise off the bat what the Asmodeans intend or are trying to pull. Npcs can be a strong source of resistance, especially if some pcs are just in it for the battle and the loot and stay mostly silent during the rp and dialogue times.

Got a question, confess my lack of knowledge here. Ameiko starts CG, but what are her gods? Does she have any she follows? Seems very concerned with individualism and isn't aware of herself at first. Not sure if this was covered. Did they make her non-religious?


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Evil gives you more types of characters to play, and some will really fit into the harsh world of Golarion. Evil characters aren't always baby-killers, some are pushed to it, some find it easier, mercs can easily be evil, as can rogues that lived off the populace or rangers that protect the old places and kill all comers. What I'm saying is evil isn't always the enemy, evil can also be an ally.

On the npcs in jade regent, I think they would have a lot of resistance, especially the Desnan cleric, but some of them may not realise off the bat what the Asmodeans intend or are trying to pull. Npcs can be a strong source of resistance, especially if some pcs are just in it for the battle and the loot and stay mostly silent during the rp and dialogue times.

Got a question, confess my lack of knowledge here. Ameiko starts CG, but what are her gods? Does she have any she follows? Seems very concerned with individualism and isn't aware of herself at first. Not sure if this was covered. Did they make her non-religious?

Her patron goddess is Shelyn.


Hmmm, one step off, music works for the musician.


CG is a curious alignment for the princess though, it seems she follows the old ways once she learns of them. Starts to chase a lawful good dream not a chaotic one. There feels like there is something off, wouldn't a CG "I'm a tough barkeeper woman and individual" remake Minkai in a different more chaotic fashion rather than adhere to the old ways, follow the traditions, wear the traditional clothes etc. Minkai is free, now you are all free, stop following me and the old ways, they led us into accepting despots. CG is pretty anti-traditional, yet she goes along with the traditionalism as a part of the destiny.


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I woudn't be averse to her changing her alignment towards LG ( after all, Shelyn is a NG goddess ) slowly, as she comes to realize the sheer scope of what responsibility she would assume. Although I would probably stop at NG, to not change her personality too much.

LE, however, seems absolutely unlikely.

Sovereign Court

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Evil gives you more types of characters to play, and some will really fit into the harsh world of Golarion.

That seems to me to be an extraordinary assertion.

Do you really believe that 'Evil gives you more types of characters to play'? I'd like to hear the logic behind that statement, if you would be so kind?


magnuskn wrote:
I woudn't be averse to her changing her alignment towards LG ( after all, Shelyn is a NG goddess ) slowly, as she comes to realize the sheer scope of what responsibility she would assume. Although I would probably stop at NG, to not change her personality too much.

Seconded. Taking up the burden of traditions, for the good of her people, even if she personally doesn't buy into them is pretty much solid within NG terrirory for me.


GeraintElberion wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Evil gives you more types of characters to play, and some will really fit into the harsh world of Golarion.

That seems to me to be an extraordinary assertion.

Do you really believe that 'Evil gives you more types of characters to play'? I'd like to hear the logic behind that statement, if you would be so kind?

Extraordinary? Well Jim, you can play good characters, which follow the archetypes of good heroes from stories, e.g. white knight, robin hood, Aragorn, and then you can play evil characters, which follow evil villains or dark/anti-hero characters from stories, e.g. the punisher, notorious criminals or mafioso, Archilles, ruthless baller samurai, Vlad the impaler, assassins, Bronn the sellsword, Hellsing, bloodthirsty viking raiders.

If you only play good or neutral characters, there is a lot of limit in what you can play, that you are agreeing is proper and acceptable. I get this I do, some would rather only play the heroes, but I'll give you an example of something that you can't play with such a prescription. I intend to next play an evil cleric of Zyphus with the plant and war domains, and the background of being in a number of sieges and seeing the horrors of war, and people dying by accident like fools. So he will come in at middle age or near it, this chap is religious, wants to spread the faith and cares very little for people, he wants to see more die by accidents. Fortunately, adventuring offers the opportunity for that. It is not as if he won't help others, he has been a crossbowman on the walls, he knows and has felt camaraderie, but he also is looking for those enlightening moments when he is close to death and accident. He wants to make the world closer to how he sees the world. Such an evil character cannot be played if they are not permitted.

Sovereign Court

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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Evil gives you more types of characters to play, and some will really fit into the harsh world of Golarion.

That seems to me to be an extraordinary assertion.

Do you really believe that 'Evil gives you more types of characters to play'? I'd like to hear the logic behind that statement, if you would be so kind?

Extraordinary? Well Jim, you can play good characters, which follow the archetypes of good heroes from stories, e.g. white knight, robin hood, Aragorn, and then you can play evil characters, which follow evil villains or dark/anti-hero characters from stories, e.g. the punisher, notorious criminals or mafioso, Archilles, ruthless baller samurai, Vlad the impaler, assassins, Bronn the sellsword, Hellsing, bloodthirsty viking raiders.

If you only play good or neutral characters, there is a lot of limit in what you can play, that you are agreeing is proper and acceptable. I get this I do, some would rather only play the heroes, but I'll give you an example of something that you can't play with such a prescription. I intend to next play an evil cleric of Zyphus with the plant and war domains, and the background of being in a number of sieges and seeing the horrors of war, and people dying by accident like fools. So he will come in at middle age or near it, this chap is religious, wants to spread the faith and cares very little for people, he wants to see more die by accidents. Fortunately, adventuring offers the opportunity for that. It is not as if he won't help others, he has been a crossbowman on the walls, he knows and has felt camaraderie, but he also is looking for those enlightening moments when he is close to death and accident. He wants to make the world closer to how he sees the world. Such an evil character cannot be played if they are not permitted.

Ah, so what you meant was: "Having the opportunity to play any alignment gives you more opportunities than games which restrict you to certain alignments."

Apologies, I misunderstood.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:


Extraordinary? Well Jim, you can play good characters, which follow the archetypes of good heroes from stories, e.g. white knight, robin hood, Aragorn, and then you can play evil characters, which follow evil villains or dark/anti-hero characters from stories, e.g. the punisher, notorious criminals or mafioso, Archilles, ruthless baller samurai, Vlad the impaler, assassins, Bronn the sellsword, Hellsing, bloodthirsty viking raiders.

Hellsing... Are you talking of the good doctor or the no death King?


The Hellsing organisation and anyone from it, Alucard. I have fond memories of playing an evil warmage and war criminal who fought against the elves, even when his side opted for peace. Good times.

Though yes, evil pcs creates quite a contrast with the allies of Ameiko in Jade Regent.


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Copernicus Mandrake I wrote:
Your defense of this AP--which pretty much boils down to "if your characters don't love-love-LOVE the NPCs, you're doing it wrong"--rings very hollow to me. Players aren't stupid. They read the PGs and consider the advice therein. When they follow that advice and still have an unsatisfactory gaming experience, who's to blame then? You seem to think it's the players.

I can tell you for a fact that it is entirely possible to make up a character who is actually highly antagonistic personally, to all the key NPC's, who still winds up going along with the caravan for an internally consistent reason, and enjoy playing them.

'Cause that is what I am doing. The entire reason my character is involved is because he still hasn't forgiven Shalelu for saving his life years before, everyone else is guilt by association, although he isn't terribly fond of Varisians for other reasons. He is mainly going on this 'fool's errand' to be able to tell them 'I told you so' when it crashes & burns. Of course, being a Lawful Good Paladin there is no way he is letting it crash & burn without a fight, but he'll be pissing & moaning, 'This was your brilliant plan?', the entire way.

Further, there are a number of actions that aren't 'do stupid stuff' that will increase your Notoriety, several of them are all but inescapable in fact. So the 'Ameiko likes it when you do stupid stuff' arguement kind of falls flat.


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LeadPal wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Remember, it took House Thrune at least two or three generations of almost total anarchy to claim Cheliax. Minkai hasn't seen anything like that bad yet.
Minkai isn't in anarchy, though--it's brutally oppressed by an illegitimate ruler. While an Asmodean dynasty might not be less oppressive, it would be entirely legitimate, and since much of Minkai is obsessed with duty, that gives it a major advantage.

I would argue that an Asmodean Dynasty would not be entirely legitimate, it would be attempting to impose an entirely foreign Theocracy upon an already well-established Pantheon, hence my recommendation of the long game, multi-generational strategy. My point regarding the total chaos was that it took being the only way to end multiple generations of total chaos to put House Thrune in power in Cheliax.

LeadPal wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Another thing for you to consider, the Amatatsu Seal is a literal gift from the gods of Minkai & I strongly doubt they/she will allow an encroachment by Asmodeus without repercussions. Have the Bad Boys even encountered the Seal yet? If not, their first encounter may come as an unfortunate surprise to them.
The gods are ok with letting the bad guys hold onto the other four seals, and have let the Five Storms take over Minkai with no repercussions. In fact,...

Regarding the gods being ok with Oni vs the Gods being ok with Asmodeus. Yes the Oni are evil, but culturally they still obey the mandate given them by the Gods, they may be perverting it, but they are still obeying it. Asmodeus has no such Mandate as far as the Dragon Empires Pantheon is concerned. They already have a Lawful Evil, obsessed with rule of law vs. Good of the people deity 'thank-you-very-much' They don't need some damned 'round-eyes' 'white-bread' Devil trying to horn in on his turf. You also have no definitive evidence there have been/are 'no repercussions' The Last surviving heir of the final family suddenly & unexpectedly coming into her inheritance & being able to act on it sounds like a pretty solid repercussion to me.


Asmodeus as white bread, lol.


thomrenault wrote:
If I were GM'ing for this group, they'd have to be pretty careful not to give away their hand at a low level because these NPC's would definitely get rid of bad folks.

But they need all the help they can get. It also comes to light over time, the size and strength of the opponents to Ameiko and her claim.

From what I have seen of the adventure, the caravan, Ameiko and all the followers will die without the pc bodyguards. Putting aside the Chelaxian brothers, imagine it is an evil ranger or something like that, with some really unusual beliefs. Now this ranger has a very useful favoured enemy, and as he gets stronger, it will only get stronger. You can kick the ranger once you work out he is evil and follows the devouring alien forces of the forest, the future for any country this guy could influence would not be good, like the Diabolists, but they have a really suitable skill set.

I've seen the npcs, they are okay, but an npc vs pcs conflict could also go really badly for the npcs (you know how strong pcs can be). So the npcs say, no evil brothers or evil pcs, you are out, you are not coming further. Pcs say no, we are coming. Npcs threaten, pcs attack and mercilessly kill npcs. Then Ameiko has to accept their help, she may be the only one left! And the caravan has to put itself together again.

Evil pcs certainly could force their way, but I like the idea of npcs really being characters with cares.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Not the entire group is evil. Unless the good PC players go OOC, I don't see the entire group attacking the NPCs. After which Ameiko would not want to travel with an obviously evil group, anyway and there are just so many ways to sabotage the journey for her.


Mmm, well say it was the evil pcs (and non evil pcs) and Ameiko, there is no guarantee they can take what is thrown at them without the npc support. Problem is, if Ameiko doesn't go, Minkai is DOOMED!

Ahem. She can try and find other adventurers, if there are any around this area, but the pcs can always refuse to let the princess go. Instead of the heroes journey it becomes the heroes and their hostage.

I am pretty sure evil pcs can force their way, but they had best watch out that the princess doesn't dispose of them later.


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Frankly , the NPCs are not that much help in the adventures as written.

One possible twist for an evil DM would be to arrange for evil PCs for Ameiko to be possessed by the ghost of an erstwhile evil emperor whose goal is to rule Minkai again .
It is doable without changing too much.

Now what your PC might forget is that when a ghost achieve his/her ambition, she, in fact, dissipate leaving the original Ameiko in charge ...


A pretty cool idea. Ameiko could go through all sorts of changes, sometimes surface sometimes submerge.

Clerics may try to drive out the possessing ghost.


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Time to bring down the evil shogunate.

Just had the oddest thought. The good guys win, a good ruler is put in place. Then you realise, the people liked and preferred the reliability of an evil ruler. That could be so difficult to re-educate everyone. Judges keep handing down lawful evil punishments with lawful evil legal codes. Damn administration.

Actually, there was a Dr. Doom story kinda like this.

A few years earlier, the FF wupped Doom and helped another guy take over Latveria; he was kinda a douche though, and Doom came back and kicked his arse. The people were ebullient, for though Doom was stern, his lawful evil was fair and he truly loved Latveria and kept the peace.

Its true that people (peasants, really) are far more desiring of their rulers to be lawful than to be good. Evil they can deal with as in many ways its simply selfishness and human nature, but lawlessness they can not. The further removed you are from the capital, the less you care about what actually goes on in the capital and the more you care if the roads are maintained and patrolled so you can get your harvest to market.


Rural peasants suspicious of city authority would be far more desiring of their rulers to be good, not lawful. Law punishes and constrains, emphasises duties, taxes and responsibilities. Lawful authority burdens the peasant to belong. Far out folk just want to be left alone.

This coming from a rural.

Friedrich Nietzsche on the state and its attack on the culture of peoples: ‘Where there is still a people, there the State is not understood, but hated as the evil eye, and as sin against laws and customs’ (Nietzsche 1913: 409).

The law of the city can interfere with the laws of the country.


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Is it specifically Ameiko they want to corrupt, or just to create a pseudo-Cheliax?

If Ameiko is on the throne with one of the PCs as consort/emperor, then that PC will probably get to shape quite a bit of Minkai, not to mention probably at least some of the personality of their offspring. Rome wasn't built in a day, after all. Plus, if Ameiko is CG at heart, she may decide to retire relatively early when there is a capable heir who can take over.

Yeah, it's a bit less squeamish than converting or ensuring the possession of Ameiko, but it is an option.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, because Ameiko will just loooove a lawful evil inquisitor of Asmodeus. Not likely.


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Then just have the PCs shank Ameiko and get themselves a nice dumb, fertile figurehead so they can get to buiesness. After all they are scions themselves and as long as the Oni are given the heave I don't think the various divine powers will mind.

Ameiko would make exclent bait as well. Since the Oni would be paranoid as all get out about Ameiko, have her run around the countryside getting fols riled up would draw attention away for the PCs to get into the city.


Assassination of the key npc, after becoming scions. That could be very cool.

"You were the chosen one!"


Also, if evil pcs are going to get the fail ticket, what about good ones? A paladin of Iomodae who perhaps hopes to create an order in Minaki? Or a cleric of Shelyn who looks into opening a shrine? Things need to be kept equal alla round.


Andrea1 wrote:
Also, if evil pcs are going to get the fail ticket, what about good ones? A paladin of Iomodae who perhaps hopes to create an order in Minaki? Or a cleric of Shelyn who looks into opening a shrine? Things need to be kept equal alla round.

Shelyn is a major goddess in Tian-Xia. Also, Setting up an order is not to the same level as conquering a nation and setting up an infernal theocracy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Quite so. If the players choose to play evil PCs, which goes quite a bit against the very obvious assumptions of the PC, they don't have a right to act surprised if things don't go their way.


Evil isn't always foolish and arrogantly stupid. If evil chooses to make their presence known in the most colourful fashion known within a lawful good city, things are ging to go downhill very fast for them. The same can be said for good aligned individuals who do the same within an evil populace. It comes right down to the luck of the dice and how each indiviual chooses to go about their desired tasks.

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