Additional Resources updated


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Grand Lodge 4/5

Please note the new restrictions from the Ultimate Combat regarding firearms. If the new changes affect you, you may refund any firearm at full cost that you purchased and has now adversely affected for your character.

4/5 ****

It's nice to see some of the really extreme silliness reigned in.

Too bad we still have the double barreled musket which fires 2 shots every attack and reloads for free thanks to alchemical cartridges.

Although that's really a problem with the rules and not so much PFS.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pirate Rob wrote:

It's nice to see some of the really extreme silliness reigned in.

Too bad we still have the double barreled musket which fires 2 shots every attack and reloads for free thanks to alchemical cartridges.

Although that's really a problem with the rules and not so much PFS.

What the new rule does though, is restrict someone from taking a double barreled pistol till about 13 to 18 Fame. Getting that many attacks a round at -4 to -8 (if TWF) and -10 (if TWF and Rapid Shot) isn't that big a deal once you get up to level 5 to 7, which is where you'll need to be for the 13 to 18 fame.

Grand Lodge 4/5

We debated this heavily on the VC message board. Even with the free reload, a character still can't take more iterative attacks than the class allows.

Alchemical cartridges are essential to the complete gunslinger class, not just the musket master. I don't want to completely neuter an entire class for one archetype build. Later down the line it may be reevaluated if it is still out of control.

I had considered tying minimum fame points to the purchase of a second firearm, as well as a double barrel firearm. However, I built the musket master 20 different times, trying to take advantage of having a double barrel weapon in each hand. The costs of armor and ammunition alone, to create a character that would reasonably survive, made the 18 Fame do nothing to slow down the progressing and just added an unnecessary step.

With the cost of firearms, a second weapon can't reasonably taken until just before mid levels. Additionally, even though they are shooting at touch AC, the chance of misfires, especially when using alchemical cartridges, compensates for it.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Michael Brock wrote:
I built the musket master 20 different times

What we're not supposed to realize is that he's not talking about theoretical PFS characters - Mike Brock now has a gunslinger army to keep us all in line. ;)

Grand Lodge 4/5

I will also note that these changes put the gunslinger on par with an archer for the damage output for the most part.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Michael Brock wrote:
I will also note that these changes put the gunslinger on par with an archer for the damage output for the most part.

Wait, I thought archers were already better at damage output? Did you just make gunslingers better somehow, or is my information flawed?

4/5 ****

Interesting. Thanks for the responses.


Jiggy wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
I will also note that these changes put the gunslinger on par with an archer for the damage output for the most part.
Wait, I thought archers were already better at damage output? Did you just make gunslingers better somehow, or is my information flawed?

Yea, a dedicated archer should be better with all but the most niche of gunslinger builds. Maybe he was referring to such builds?

4/5

Jiggy wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
I will also note that these changes put the gunslinger on par with an archer for the damage output for the most part.
Wait, I thought archers were already better at damage output? Did you just make gunslingers better somehow, or is my information flawed?

Though feat-heavy in order to get plenty of reloads, gunslingers with certain archetypes that can negate misfires (like musket master, for instance) can significantly outpace archers in expected dpr against monsters (less so against NPCs) due in part to touch AC basically not scaling in bestiary monsters, so the gunslinger can hit with even the lowliest iteratives except on a 1.

Once you get past the feat cost of insta-reloading, the gunslinger can potentially make more attacks than the archer, add Dex to damage (as opposed to the archer adding non-primary Str to damage and only with an appropriately mighty bow) and target touch AC. Now that's a big "once you get past", so I'm sure Grandmaster Brock has taken a keen eye to all the different levels along the path in making this decision.

Liberty's Edge 2/5

I'm very sad to see that experimental gunsmith got the axe :-(

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Not happy about tying fame to guns for gunslingers, especially since I have 2 gunslingers. I am uncertain but I think for both of them they don't have the fame for their weapons.

I am TDY right now, will have to look into when I get home. Until then I am uncertain why it was done.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Dragnmoon wrote:

Not happy about tying fame to guns for gunslingers, especially since I have 2 gunslingers. I am uncertain but I think for both of them they don't have the fame for their weapons.

I am TDY right now, will have to look into when I get home. Until then I am uncertain why it was done.

You are ok on the free firearm you have. Any firearms beyond the free one you get for being a gunslinger are not considered always available, thus you need fame or a chronicle to purchase them.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
You are ok on the free firearm you have. Any firearms beyond the free one you get for being a gunslinger are not considered always available, thus you need fame or a chronicle to purchase them.

I understood that, neither of my gunslingers of their original weapon, you can't start with double barreled weapons.

My 6th level may be ok, not sure about my 3rd

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Michael Brock wrote:

We debated this heavily on the VC message board. Even with the free reload, a character still can't take more iterative attacks than the class allows.

Alchemical cartridges are essential to the complete gunslinger class, not just the musket master. I don't want to completely neuter an entire class for one archetype build. Later down the line it may be reevaluated if it is still out of control.

I had considered tying minimum fame points to the purchase of a second firearm, as well as a double barrel firearm. However, I built the musket master 20 different times, trying to take advantage of having a double barrel weapon in each hand. The costs of armor and ammunition alone, to create a character that would reasonably survive, made the 18 Fame do nothing to slow down the progressing and just added an unnecessary step.

With the cost of firearms, a second weapon can't reasonably taken until just before mid levels. Additionally, even though they are shooting at touch AC, the chance of misfires, especially when using alchemical cartridges, compensates for it.

Was this rule on tying it to fame because of one build?

And how does a Musket Master have double barrel muskets in each hand?

Dark Archive 4/5

The reason was two-fold:
1. Make guns as rare as they are supposed to be
2. Negate some of the more ridiculous builds out there.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Todd Morgan wrote:


2. Negate some of the more ridiculous builds out there.

I don't recall seeing anything about Summoners... :p

Dark Archive 5/5 * Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf

Todd Morgan wrote:

The reason was two-fold:

1. Make guns as rare as they are supposed to be
2. Negate some of the more ridiculous builds out there.

Is there still alchemical discounts for ammo?

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Dominick wrote:
Is there still alchemical discounts for ammo?

Yes.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Todd Morgan wrote:

The reason was two-fold:

1. Make guns as rare as they are supposed to be
2. Negate some of the more ridiculous builds out there.

Thanks for the insight Todd.

I have not personally experinced these ridiculous builds since the only gunslingers I have seen played are my own (only gunslingers in the area), and the Pregen, I have though seen plenty of ridiculous builds for all the other classes, are we going to see crack downs on these as well, or is this a one time thing for Gunslinger because of the strong feelings against the class?

Edit: I am not implying Mike has strong feelings against the class, I was talking about the anger people showed for the class when it first came out because it was not "Fantasy".

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Cheapy wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:


2. Negate some of the more ridiculous builds out there.
I don't recall seeing anything about Summoners... :p

oooh, love to see the Summoner reigned in, nothing has ripped apart games I have ran more then this class.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Dragonmoon,

Largely it was those taking two double barreled pistols with two-weapon fighting and rapid reload, rapid shot, and alchemical cartridges could essentially get 8 shots in one round at level 2 (one-level dip into Wizard for free bonded item firearm). Using weapon cords and the right series of actions... it got pretty gross.

Now you have to wait until a reasonable level to explode in number of actions like that.

NOTE: For all those thinking, hey, I'm going to build towards something like that... there is still a fairly sizable portion of GM's who would likely invoke the "a GM can limit the number of free actions taken in a round."

Grand Lodge 5/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
NOTE: For all those thinking, hey, I'm going to build towards something like that... there is still a fairly sizable portion of GM's who would likely invoke the "a GM can limit the number of free actions taken in a round."

This. Really, really this.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:

Dragonmoon,

Largely it was those taking two double barreled pistols with two-weapon fighting and rapid reload, rapid shot, and alchemical cartridges could essentially get 8 shots in one round at level 2 (one-level dip into Wizard for free bonded item firearm). Using weapon cords and the right series of actions... it got pretty gross.

Now you have to wait until a reasonable level to explode in number of actions like that.

NOTE: For all those thinking, hey, I'm going to build towards something like that... there is still a fairly sizable portion of GM's who would likely invoke the "a GM can limit the number of free actions taken in a round."

I am trying to see the 8 shots by level 2.... I don't see it, are you exaggerating?

the amount of feats you are talking about can't be done with a level 1 Gunslinger (Pistolero)/ level 1 Wizard. You would need Point blank shot, Two weapon fighting, Rapid shot and rapid reload. lets not forget by 2nd level a character can't afford to get a 2nd double barreled pistol.

I know Mike made some builds, because he said so above, so I assuming he is not going off exaggerations like this.

4/5

Error on the Additional Resources page: Human racial subtypes are all listed as legal, but Trailblazer includes a non-legal alternate racial trait (Heroic).

Grand Lodge 1/5

I noticed that none of the Human feats seem to be legal, is this intentional?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Serisan wrote:
Error on the Additional Resources page: Human racial subtypes are all listed as legal, but Trailblazer includes a non-legal alternate racial trait (Heroic).

Thank you sir. I will get that added to the banned list in Additional Resources.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Aeshuura wrote:
I noticed that none of the Human feats seem to be legal, is this intentional?

They were inadvertently left off when I was creating that long list. We will get those all made legal also. Sorry about that.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Thanks Mike. Your hard work is appreciated!

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Michael Brock wrote:
Aeshuura wrote:
I noticed that none of the Human feats seem to be legal, is this intentional?

They were inadvertently left off when I was creating that long list. We will get those all made legal also. Sorry about that.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Also human spells were left off the list.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It's not in red, so I must be behind an update, but... I noticed that the Blood of Fiends inquisitions are legal, even though no other inquisitions are legal. Was this intentional?

Also, it's misspelled as "inquisitons" instead of "inquisitions" on the additional resources page.

Grand Lodge 5/5

I believe the only inquisitions that are illegal are the ones in Ultimate Combat.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Seth Gipson wrote:
I believe the only inquisitions that are illegal are the ones in Ultimate Combat.

Correct. That's why the "no inquisitions are legal" bit is within the "Ultimate Combat" heading.

Headings, subheadings, and other linguistic structures have actual meaning. It's not just the words themselves that matter.

I can't tell you how many times the same type of error is made over in the Rules forums. *sigh*


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I was misinformed when I made my inquisitor, it seems. I reread the section, and that seems to be the case. Thanks!

Dark Archive 4/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:

The reason was two-fold:

1. Make guns as rare as they are supposed to be
2. Negate some of the more ridiculous builds out there.

Thanks for the insight Todd.

I have not personally experinced these ridiculous builds since the only gunslingers I have seen played are my own (only gunslingers in the area), and the Pregen, I have though seen plenty of ridiculous builds for all the other classes, are we going to see crack downs on these as well, or is this a one time thing for Gunslinger because of the strong feelings against the class?

Edit: I am not implying Mike has strong feelings against the class, I was talking about the anger people showed for the class when it first came out because it was not "Fantasy".

Gunslingers have been in fantasy since like the early 1900s unless I'm mistaken, so I'm with you on that.

As for your query about other ridiculous builds, it wouldn't surprise me...


Andrew, you need free hands to reload the firearms. And if both are being used to hold firearms, you don't have free hands.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Cheapy wrote:
Andrew, you need free hands to reload the firearms. And if both are being used to hold firearms, you don't have free hands.

It probably involves the use of weapon cords. Although these 'may interfere with finer actions', and I can think of few things more fiddly than reloading an early firearm in a combat zone.

Dark Archive 4/5

Correct, weapon cords allow you to get around the restriction of needing free hands to re-load


Ok, so they fire all shots from one hand, then the other hand. They drop one of the pistols, reload the other one with the free hand, then use their swift action to get the other one back into their hand. They can't reload the one they just got back into their hand.

Next round, they fire the one pistol they have reloaded, drop it, reload the other one. And then repeat that, because they can't reload both pistols in one round?

Grand Lodge 5/5

Cheapy wrote:

Next round, they fire the one pistol they have reloaded, drop it, reload the other one. And then repeat that, because they can't reload both pistols in one round?

With Rapid Reload and paper cartridges, reloading is a free action. You can, with GM permission, do as many free actions per round as you want.


Of course. But at the beginning of the second round, they only have one pistol reloaded because you need a free hand to reload the pistol and a hand to hold the pistol, and there's a hard limit of one swift action per round.

If someone could explain the series of events necessary, keeping in mind the one swift action per round, and the need of a free hand to reload the pistol, that lets them have two fully loaded pistols at the beginning of their turn round after round, I'd appreciate it.

5/5 *

Summary of gunslinger alleged cheese:

Prereqs:
Paper cartidges
Rapid Reload
Two pistols (double barreled)
Weapon cords on both pistols
Rapid Shot
Quickdraw(?)

Result:
more attacks per round than intended

Solution:
GM may limit amount of free actions per turn
enforce 'may interfere with finer actions' on weapon cords.

Dark Archive 4/5

That solution will still have table variation and puts the onus on every GM to either say yes or no, which ends up putting both the player and the GM on the spot.

By removing guns from "Always Available" you prevent this from happening at early levels, but allow it at later levels where its supposed to be occurring.

Not only that, but you make guns as rare mechanically as they are supposed to be in lore.

Dark Archive 4/5

That solution will still have table variation and puts the onus on every GM to either say yes or no, which ends up putting both the player and the GM on the spot.

By removing guns from "Always Available" you prevent this from happening at early levels, but allow it at later levels where its supposed to be occurring.

Not only that, but you make guns as rare mechanically as they are supposed to be in lore.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Cheapy wrote:

Ok, so they fire all shots from one hand, then the other hand. They drop one of the pistols, reload the other one with the free hand, then use their swift action to get the other one back into their hand. They can't reload the one they just got back into their hand.

Next round, they fire the one pistol they have reloaded, drop it, reload the other one. And then repeat that, because they can't reload both pistols in one round?

Why not? at 6th level:

P1 = Pistol 1, P2 = Pistol 2

Fire P1 (both barrels at -10 w/ twf, one-handed weapon in offhand, rapid shot)
Fire P2 (both barrels at -10)
Drop P2 (free action)
Reload P1 (2 free actions)
Fire P1 (both barrels at -10 - this is rapid shot)
Reload P1 (2 free actions)
Fire P1 (both barrels at -15 - this is iterative shot)
Reload P1 (2 free actions)
Recover P2 (swift action)
Drop P1 (free action)
Reload P2 (2 free actions)
Fire P2 (both barrels at -15 - this is iterative itwf)
Reload P2 (2 free actions)

Round 2:

P2 becomes primary and P1 becomes secondary... still get 10 shots.

That's 10 shots at 6th level. Yes the penalties are pretty heavy, but vs. Touch AC, High Dex, and correct feats you are about on par with an Archer of same level.

Personally, at my table, weapon cords preclude reloading (that line about hindering fine work)

And I would invoke the GM thing about determining how many free actions one could take in a round.

These are extreme builds, and ones that have their own penalties that tend to balance them out.

But the idea with making firearms rare enough that they are tied to Fame, is that you can't start getting 6 or 8 shots at level 2 or 3, which is over the top.


Man I feel dumb. Forgot they could fire from the same pistol. Alright, thanks all.


Michael,

What about anyone that had taken feats that are specific to the gunslinger weapons that got removed from Society? Are we going to be able to take new feats because of it?

Dark Archive 4/5

What feats are unique to gunslingers in this instance?

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