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So I'm trying to grow Pathfinder Society in the FLGS where I play my games but I'm having a problem, and that's having more players than I have GMs to run games for them.
I use Warhorn for sign ups, but I have only a pool of 2 for GM's, myself and one other player. So since January I've rain 15 tables, earned my self a star, and played once at a table.
I'm having problems recruiting people to run games because frankly most of the players are coming over from 4e and don't really know the rules for Pathfinder enough to run games, and most of them really don't want to bother learning more rules than they need to play.
Without GM's though I can't recruit players, because I can only sit so many at a table. And since I use Warhorn people know when tables sign up so they don't bother signing up. Which leads to people signing up, not showing up, and leaving spots open on a table where it could have been full. WHich if I had GM's wouldn't be a problem because I'd have multiple tables for people to sign up too so that I'd have room to slide people around if we had no shows.
But at the point I'm at now I have people who are new to PFS and want to play, but can't sign up because I don't have a table for them to play at because I can only GM one table at a time [Well I could figure out how to do two at once but that would be a rather bad idea. And probably not allowed.]
And I hate turning people away, I loathe it, but I can only do so much. The worst part is I had a couple e-mail me asking if I could get them a table this weekend, and I can't because the one person who could run the game can't make it. It sucks.
I can't even steal LFR DM's because only the LFR players have started playing Pathfinder and not the GM's.
I just don't know what to do and I hate not knowing what to do.
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So I'm trying to grow Pathfinder Society in the FLGS where I play my games but I'm having a problem, and that's having more players than I have GMs to run games for them.
I use Warhorn for sign ups, but I have only a pool of 2 for GM's, myself and one other player. So since January I've rain 15 tables, earned my self a star, and played once at a table.
I'm having problems recruiting people to run games because frankly most of the players are coming over from 4e and don't really know the rules for Pathfinder enough to run games, and most of them really don't want to bother learning more rules than they need to play.
Without GM's though I can't recruit players, because I can only sit so many at a table. And since I use Warhorn people know when tables sign up so they don't bother signing up. Which leads to people signing up, not showing up, and leaving spots open on a table where it could have been full. WHich if I had GM's wouldn't be a problem because I'd have multiple tables for people to sign up too so that I'd have room to slide people around if we had no shows.
But at the point I'm at now I have people who are new to PFS and want to play, but can't sign up because I don't have a table for them to play at because I can only GM one table at a time [Well I could figure out how to do two at once but that would be a rather bad idea. And probably not allowed.]
And I hate turning people away, I loathe it, but I can only do so much. The worst part is I had a couple e-mail me asking if I could get them a table this weekend, and I can't because the one person who could run the game can't make it. It sucks.
I can't even steal LFR DM's because only the LFR players have started playing Pathfinder and not the GM's.
I just don't know what to do and I hate not knowing what to do.
Jeffrey,
One of the things you might want to do is offer priority seating at future tables to those players that have/do GM.
Nathan Meyers
NYC GM/Player
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Yeah that is a rule I do want to have, but without having other GM's it doesn't help right now. Hell I even give my GM's a free Pathfinder Mini box for each game they run. I'm really not above bribery.
Are there any players who seem to be more "rules lawyer" types or seem to have a better grasp of the rules in the group? If there are any you might want to pull them aside and ask them if they would step up and maybe try running a game, maybe start off with a low level game, first steps maybe?
They might actually like it. Also point out the benefits of GM Credit, Priority Seating and Pathfinder Mini's!
Nathan
NYC GM/Player
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Yeah that is a rule I do want to have, but without having other GM's it doesn't help right now. Hell I even give my GM's a free Pathfinder Mini box for each game they run. I'm really not above bribery.
Can I GM for you? I want minis...
For the GMs that are afraid to jump in the pool, those not so familiar with the system, as long as you assure them that it's not that bad, and that you'll be at their table as a player to help them out, they should come into the fold eventually.
I was in a same boat last year in my area and did nothing but GM for the first few months (with maybe 5-10 games played out of 50 GM'd). It's rough for a while, but after a month or so I had players offering to GM and give me a break. Just have fun while your up there, and keep encouraging people to do it, and eventually some will step up. And if you pat those that do on the back, they'll keep coming back to do it again.
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Actually no, no one is really a Pathfinder Rules Lawyer, which is what is really making it hard. Which is probably because they aren't comfortable with the rules yet, I hope.
I've never been the best recruiter either which is probably a problem as well [most likely the biggest one]. I don't think it helps that people don't care if they get turned away either because they aren't motivated to do what's needed to keep playing. I mean LFR is pretty much dead at the store these days as well with lack of people wanting to run games, and for them players.
I just don't like telling people they can't play. It sucks.
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Yeah that is a rule I do want to have, but without having other GM's it doesn't help right now. Hell I even give my GM's a free Pathfinder Mini box for each game they run. I'm really not above bribery.Can I GM for you? I want minis...
For the GMs that are afraid to jump in the pool, those not so familiar with the system, as long as you assure them that it's not that bad, and that you'll be at their table as a player to help them out, they should come into the fold eventually.
I was in a same boat last year in my area and did nothing but GM for the first few months (with maybe 5-10 games played out of 50 GM'd). It's rough for a while, but after a month or so I had players offering to GM and give me a break. Just have fun while your up there, and keep encouraging people to do it, and eventually some will step up. And if you pat those that do on the back, they'll keep coming back to do it again.
Pathfinder Battle Mini single is what, 4 bucks it's the least I can do for someone who is willing to run. So yeah if you ever are in the Philly area on the fourth Saturday of the month sure.
Yeah, I guess I could be more showing with how I thank GM's for running. It's hard for me to support them as a player at their tables when I need them for the overflow while I GM. I mean I don't mind not playing a lot, I knew that would happen when I started this. I just don't like turning players away. That part sucks.
GMing is fun most of the time. [I hate killing characters though. But it happens.]
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I made an announcement at my store that while it is great that the group is growing so large, we cannot continue offering X number of tables regularly without people stepping up to assist. Make it first come first serve, with GM-Players getting seated first. This should give you plenty of volunteers to take the helm.
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I don't use Warhorn, so forgive the question - can you block certain email addresses from registering? If you have a chronic problem (twice close together would be my limit) with people registering and not showing up, you could keep them from warn them first time and then block them second - they get to play if there's space. If they get turned away a few times, they'll respect the registration a little better.
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I don't use Warhorn, so forgive the question - can you block certain email addresses from registering? If you have a chronic problem (twice close together would be my limit) with people registering and not showing up, you could keep them from warn them first time and then block them second - they get to play if there's space. If they get turned away a few times, they'll respect the registration a little better.
I think you'd have to suspend the account for the particular Warhorn, which is a bit extreme (they'd have to sign back up again). What I would do instead is let them register, but be aware that if they are on 'probation' that their seat is not guaranteed. I would talk to them in general about why they are signing up and not showing up. I, for one, have a job that I don't know my schedule for a Saturday until the Wednesday night prior (so less than 72 hours ahead). I often sign up for games to hold a seat, but immediately vacate it on Warhorn if I find out I cannot attend and never sign up for spots that I'm certain I won't be able to do (IE It runs into a time I know I'll be working for certain, based on scheduling trends).
They might be in a similar situation and not realize they need to remove themselves from the signup (or that they even can).
As far as GM bait, a few possible solutions (in addition to Painlord's advice):
1) Run a 'Zero Slot' of some scenarious for people willing to GM ahead of time. This gives you a pool of 4-6 people who have played it that are willing to run it and ideally agree to GM/be present as backup GMs. As GM Credit/Player Credit can be done in any order, this also makes it possible for you to play it still (getting some time outside of the screen). I doubt you'll need 4+ judges every week, though, is the only drawback.
2) Offer to run people who GM regularly (1-2 scenarios per month) through Modules as a reward every couple months. If you can tap a local venture captain or lieutenant, arranging for them to come run one of the VC/VL exclusive scenarios for them is also a good reward and less time intensive.
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We make it clear to the player base that they have to give back to the community for it to survive. Most folks get that and freely step up to judge. It did take some growing pains, but it worked and worked well.
Now our player pool expects to judge once or twice a quarter (we have weekly games) and they know I'll ask them directly if they fall behind.
That is the key by the way - ask directly. Painlord stresses it because it works. Almost anyone can judge a game, you don't need to know the rules backwards and forwards. You just need to be willing to put in a little extra time preparing and then more effort to run the table. It's just work.
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Follow the Painlord guide to get another judge or two. If they aren't optimal judges, so be it. Then start working with them to help them become better judges.
Regarding people who sign-up on warhorn and then don't show: Gotta instill the message that this isn't anonymous internet stuff, it's a community. Deliver that message up front. Put people on warning if they no-show without taking self off of the table. Suspend them for a short period if they don't get the message. Cut them off from signups if they keep at it.
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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In Tucson, we have a 'slot zero' day once each month: Anyone can come, but our expectation is that those coming to play the slot zero will try to GM when we need them to.
Everyone has to start somewhere: Once a player's PFS character hits about 4th level, encourage him to "dip his toes into the water" of Gamemastery. He can run low-level scenarios until he gets a grip on the game's rules.
When we have a novice GM, we try to seat them with an experienced player who is willing to mentor them (and possesses the tact needed for the role). Nobody knows all the rules, and its often better to recruit a GM who is honestly ignorant instead of one who is stubbornly mistaken.
When someone signs up and fails to show, send them a polite Email explaining that such behavior undermines your ability to plan ahead and discourages other players from signing up.
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Another idea here is to have a safe place for your GM candidates to see behind the screen a bit. This can be a mod run explicitly for that purpose and with the stated idea that no question is a stupid question. Explain how you prep mods. Explain about looking up rules that are likely to come up and annotate them on post-its or whatever works for you ahead of time. Have a discussion after each encounter after the game or after each encounter as appropriate. Be willing to set them up to play with relatively simple scenarios, small tables, simple characters, and helpful players. Give people a chance to grow in small stages.
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When we have a novice GM, we try to seat them with an experienced player who is willing to mentor them (and possesses the tact needed for the role). Nobody knows all the rules, and its often better to recruit a GM who is honestly ignorant instead of one who is stubbornly mistaken.
I've seen this work first hand and this works. While training in Arizona I had the opportunity to play several slots with James his crew and he did exactly that: He let a player (Maxey) dip her toes into being a GM.
She was given a season 0 (1-5) mod and did very well. Areas that she was unfamiliar with she was coached along and all the players had a great time including the GM.
This is definitely a good way to go. Its always for a smooth transition to someone who may be a little nervous. If you have the ability, place experienced players who dont mind helping a new GM along.
Everyone's comments so far would be helpful.
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Eric, the difference between running a slot zero to get some feedback on the scenario and what I've suggested is that I'm suggested using a safe environment (whether slot zero or no) to train in GMing skills. A slot zero can be more about the scenario in question.
One of the the other advantages of using a slot zero program is that you give the GMs an opportunity to play...and less excuse not to GM. :D
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BTW, giving credit where due, San Diego has always had an exceptional GMing pool and program of getting new people into the pool. This has also gone to providing the GMs with the opportunities to get games in, clear the decks for action, and what is just an absolutely amazing community of people willing to sacrifice for each other and for the gaming community.
First rate organized play.
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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You might also want to track down local gamers who were active with the Living Greyhawk campaign. In my experience, many of these folks dropped out of organized play when LG ground to a halt. They still game in home campaigns. Once lured into playing PFS, these veteran gamers remember what they enjoyed about organized play.
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Event Coordinator - Dragon's Lair Comics & Fantasy®
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I don't know if this might help a bit, but I run a Society game at my store, and we've been using Meetup to plan our meetings instead of Warhorn. It has an automatic wait-list system, so people who sign up after the event is full still get on the list, and I can tell those people to show up even if it looks full because we always have no-shows.
It also helps that there's actually a pretty massive gamer community on Meetup from which to recruit new players, if you use the right interest tags for your Meetup group.
Do you have a local game store you can put up postings at? GMs for our store get a discount on their Pathfinder supplies, which has been an awesome incentive if you can swing anything like that.
Most of the time, though, it's just a matter of getting them to GM ONE game. After their first game they'll often want to keep GMing forever, lol.
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I just don't know what to do and I hate not knowing what to do.
Hey Jeff--
Thanks to Paz for linking the Judge Recruitment thread. I feel that method works. If people don't want to step up to judge, then you should let them go and focus on the people who will contribute.
And I wouldn't feel bad about it at all. "You gotta scrape the barnacles off your boat if you want it to go" a VC recently said to me. I agreed with him. Once a player has reached level 3 or 4, they should be ready to step up and run. Sounds like you should have players in that range...which means you have some potential judges.
I've actually begun to think about this issue in a different way recently. I don't believe in just 'running PFS games'. That's boring, hard work, and bull$%!+. I do believe in 'building a PFS community'. That's fun and energizing.
Don't do the hard work all alone. Build a community of player/GMs who will share the load with you. It's not about that YOU are putting on PFS games. It's that you're inviting new players to come join the PFS community. Also, you might want to think about this as you go about it: What we Teach New Players.
Be sure to think about asking new players to step up and GM almost immediately. You want to get the idea that this is about everyone pitching in to help.
My email is my alias, Jeff. I'm happy to help you craft and focus 'personal' emails to people to invite them to step up.
-Pain
p.s. I'm not a fan of 'bribery' (offering gifts etc.) to people for judging. The rewards we have are fine. I believe the enticement should be the rewards of GMing itself (learning better play, supporting the community, GM Chrons etc.) are sufficient...training your community to only GM for additional rewards is training them to expect stuff when they could/should be doing it for 'free'. Focus on the altruistic benefits and not the material as you build your GM pool. You'll be glad you did.
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A great statement I heard a long time ago when it came to being a GM was this
"You have to first be a bad GM, before you can be a good GM"
Help the player to understand you aren't expecting the most amazing roleplaying experience right out of the gates. Just ensure the scenario is run properly and that players have fun. Fun is the most important part.
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As an update, I've sent out a couple e-mails to two players who I thought could do a good job running a game this Saturday because I have one full table of players and 2-4 additional new players who want to join PFS.
One never responded and the other told me he would never run a game again at the store. So I now am going to have to tell new players I don't have room for them...
This sucks.
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As an update, I've sent out a couple e-mails to two players who I thought could do a good job running a game this Saturday because I have one full table of players and 2-4 additional new players who want to join PFS.
One never responded and the other told me he would never run a game again at the store. So I now am going to have to tell new players I don't have room for them...
This sucks.
Wow, sorry to hear. Did the one who did respond give a reason he never wanted to run at the store again?
Nathan
NYC Player/GM
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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As an update, I've sent out a couple e-mails to two players who I thought could do a good job running a game this Saturday because I have one full table of players and 2-4 additional new players who want to join PFS.
One never responded and the other told me he would never run a game again at the store. So I now am going to have to tell new players I don't have room for them...
This sucks.
It might sound harsh, but I'd consider telling the two people that don't want to GM (or the one that said they'd never) that they can't play this weekend, because there are too many players.
Let the new people play. At least they might contribute...
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It's both a good and bad problem to have. Good, because it means you are doing something right; Bad, because sometimes you have to disappoint people. Locally, we always seat new players before we seat veterans who didn't register to play.
Well the table I have is filled up by people who registered, two of which who are new to PFS and haven't played. The people who have said no are people who wouldn't have a shot at playing unless they gave them the six person slot. And yeah I would seat new players before non-registered veterans as that's a store policy for LFR as well.
Wow, sorry to hear. Did the one who did respond give a reason he never wanted to run at the store again?
Nathan
NYC Player/GM
Yeah he didn't like the way he was received the last time he tried to run something. Which I don't fully understand because while he's not the best rules guy he's pretty fun GM which I think is important. Hell I think it's really good because I think I'm a little rules intensive than I should be sometimes.
It might sound harsh, but I'd consider telling the two people that don't want to GM (or the one that said they'd never) that they can't play this weekend, because there are too many players.
Let the new people play. At least they might contribute...
Well they weren't signed up to play because of their being too many players. If I could run an 8 person table I'd be great... I just hate to disappoint people when it's my fault. And I've should have seen this coming and tried to be better prepared for it.
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So I'm trying to grow Pathfinder Society in the FLGS where I play my games but I'm having a problem, and that's having more players than I have GMs to run games for them.
I use Warhorn for sign ups, but I have only a pool of 2 for GM's, myself and one other player. So since January I've rain 15 tables, earned my self a star, and played once at a table.
I'm having problems recruiting people to run games because frankly most of the players are coming over from 4e and don't really know the rules for Pathfinder enough to run games, and most of them really don't want to bother learning more rules than they need to play.
Without GM's though I can't recruit players, because I can only sit so many at a table. And since I use Warhorn people know when tables sign up so they don't bother signing up. Which leads to people signing up, not showing up, and leaving spots open on a table where it could have been full. WHich if I had GM's wouldn't be a problem because I'd have multiple tables for people to sign up too so that I'd have room to slide people around if we had no shows.
But at the point I'm at now I have people who are new to PFS and want to play, but can't sign up because I don't have a table for them to play at because I can only GM one table at a time [Well I could figure out how to do two at once but that would be a rather bad idea. And probably not allowed.]
And I hate turning people away, I loathe it, but I can only do so much. The worst part is I had a couple e-mail me asking if I could get them a table this weekend, and I can't because the one person who could run the game can't make it. It sucks.
I can't even steal LFR DM's because only the LFR players have started playing Pathfinder and not the GM's.
I just don't know what to do and I hate not knowing what to do.
-try using Meetup.com. set up a group there, or find an established rpg meetup in your area. Maybe there is also a rpg forum on the internet for your area (example:Las Vegas rpg forum.)
-don't feel bad about turning people away. If they want to have a game, they should also contribute by dmíng.
-Put up a notice on the front of your warhorn page stating that more dm's are needed, and asking players to do their part.
-If a player doesn't show up, (and doessný have a VERY good excuse) do not let him pla again. State on the front page of your Warhorn page how
important it is to show up. and how incredibly rude it is to pull a no-show.
-Can the Venture Captain in your area help you
-Put up a sign in the FLGS store and other stores in the area that sell rpg materials: GM wanted.
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As an update, I've sent out a couple e-mails to two players who I thought could do a good job running a game this Saturday because I have one full table of players and 2-4 additional new players who want to join PFS.
One never responded and the other told me he would never run a game again at the store. So I now am going to have to tell new players I don't have room for them...
This sucks.
It might sound harsh, but I'd consider telling the two people that don't want to GM (or the one that said they'd never) that they can't play this weekend, because there are too many players.
Let the new people play. At least they might contribute...
+1 to WalterGM.
I'd try to address the issues with the one who responded (it doesn't sound like he doesn't want to GM...only not GM there, so there is wiggle room)...and if he's adamant about not contributing in some way, then I'd feel fine with not seating him anymore.
And not getting immediate responses is common. I'd email politely again to the one who didn't respond. If they don't, then you can safely stop seating them again.
Give the barnacles a chance to get in the boat and row, otherwise scrape them off and concentrate on new prospects.
-Pain
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Have a First Steps printed out and offer it to the overflow table. People usually step up to GM when the alternative is to go home.
Well since I use Warhorn for signups people generally don't show up if they know a table is full and they aren't on it. But I always bring my bound copy of First Step 1-3 and We Be Goblins with me.
-try using Meetup.com. set up a group there, or find an established rpg meetup in your area. Maybe there is also a rpg forum on the internet for your area (example:Las Vegas rpg forum.)...
I've tried Meetup and I've gotten nothing from it. I'm on the four biggest groups in my area and I've tried using it to host non-gameday events and I don't even get people interested enough for the event to go from suggested to announced. I also have to use Warhorn for the regular gamedays as it's a requirement from the store.
I don't think I have a Venture Officer near me either. Usually when I needed to talk to a V-O I talked to loreweaver in New York but that's way to far for something like this.
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Well it sounds like those two non-signed up players have made their decision. There's an option for them to get to participate and they have elected not to choose that.
Don't feel bad.
I don't feel bad about them, I feel bad about the new players not getting to play.
+1 to WalterGM.
I'd try to address the issues with the one who responded (it doesn't sound like he doesn't want to GM...only not GM there, so there is wiggle room)...and if he's adamant about not contributing in some way, then I'd feel fine with not seating him anymore.
And not getting immediate responses is common. I'd email politely again to the one who didn't respond. If they don't, then you can safely stop seating them again.
Give the barnacles a chance to get in the boat and row, otherwise scrape them off and concentrate on new prospects.
-Pain
True I should try the e-mail again. And I'm trying to feel the guy out because I think he can do a good job of running Pathfinder.
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Send emails to the next two GMs on your list. It's a process. Keep at it.
No next two on the list right now, as I still need to get more people familiar with the game. I really haven't had any players that had Pathfinder experience before I started the society up in the gamestore and I don't get to run gamedays enough. Most of my players are still fresh 2nd level.
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Have a First Steps printed out and offer it to the overflow table. People usually step up to GM when the alternative is to go home.
This is exactly what I do when I have overflow. So that way, I leave it to the players to decide their own fate. If they don't like it, then I hate to say that's on them, but you can only do so much. Eventually people are going to have to step up, or step out. I know that's rough to say, but true diehards are going to make it work, and those who are just flakes won't. Then you know who to invest your time into and who not to.
Also concerning your email process, email those who flake as well. Let them know that if they don't show up, not only will their seats be given away, but you will automatically be waitlisted on the next game you sign up for. That stops players from being no-shows until you stop having that problem.
Keep at it friend, and always remind your players, that without GM's, no games will take place.
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Jeff,
I see that your're in the Philly area I will go down and help you until we get some stability out there. Is The Compleat Stretegist the only place you play or do you play at Redcap's or 7th dimension?
Send me a PM we'll work something out until we can grow GM's in your region. BTW we also just got a VL in the South Jersey region and you can talk to him to help you out as well.
Shivok
So I'm trying to grow Pathfinder Society in the FLGS where I play my games but I'm having a problem, and that's having more players than I have GMs to run games for them.
What does "FLGS" stand for?
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So the new players just told me they can't play this Saturday.... The gameday I was planning for... sigh...
So while I got stressed out over what ended up being nothing at least I know how ill prepared I am for table overflow.
Jeff,
I see that your're in the Philly area I will go down and help you until we get some stability out there. Is The Compleat Stretegist the only place you play or do you play at Redcap's or 7th dimension?
Send me a PM we'll work something out until we can grow GM's in your region. BTW we also just got a VL in the South Jersey region and you can talk to him to help you out as well.
Shivok
Ok thanks, I have this week handled now. I only play at the Strat because I don't drive and it's the least complicated place to get too. I'll drop you a PM with a few questions later.
Wait, you're in the Philly region and you need help getting GMs? Depending on when you have your game days I could help you out.
Well I live in Philly, but I run the PFS games at the Compleat Strategist in King of Prussia. My normal gamedays are every fourth Saturday of the month.
I sometimes run other events on the third or fifth Saturdays if I can get a group of people who need a special event.
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So another update then....
Two of my signed up players didn't make but two of the new players who signed up bought three friends. And then two people who play sporadically and are kinda new showed up. So I suddenly had 9 players....
So after all the offers of help which I turned down cause I thought the problem had solved itself and of course I end up getting nine players.
Trying to muster this through my whole schedule off by about an hour and a half which screwed up my last mod a bit.
One of the new players familiar with 3.5 stepped up and ran a table. Which I applaud him for. I ended up signing 5 new players for PFS.
Another player was going to step up to run in the second slot but two of the players decide to hit the pool so I had a 7 person table for the 3 part of Quest for Perfection.
So in order for them to not walk away with no credit I had to run the rest of the first three waves, and the boss fight in a half an hour. Which required me to juggle 7 characters, like 12 enemies over about 16 total rounds... and it worked. It was a miracle and people had fun.
All in all my PFS community impressed me and stepped up when they didn't have to. I got five new players in PFS and even with a time shortened mod at super speed everyone had phone... A good day for a day which was pretty much my worst gaming fear to start.
