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hey all.
simple question.
if a character has Weapon finnesse and Fury's fall do they add dex twice to trips?
Fury's fall
Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
thanks for the info.
I think so
Depends.
See FAQ/Errata
I'm sorry.
I should have said
When useing a weapon to trip, does a character with both these feats add their dex twice?
It would appear so.
I dont think application of a stat bonus stacks unless it specifically says it does.
just be cause you have two abilities that say you can add your dex instead of your str does not mean you apply dex twice.
considering that in all other cases the game is very conservative about bonuses, Only one shield bonus, only one armor bonus, only one enhancement bonus etc. I think its reasonable to assume that stat modifier bonuses do not stack unless very specifically stated.
I dont think there is any skill or ability that allows you to use a bonus more than once. some abilities (like using a two handed weapon) specifically say add 1.5x or over hand chop specifically stating add double the str bonus but no ability that I can think of says add your {stat} bonus once for this feat and an additional time for this other feat.
basically if you take fury's fall you get to add your dex bonus to any attempt to trip regardless of weapon, possibly making it better to use a non-finess weapon or no weapon at all in order to trip than it would be to use your finess weapon.
The only reason fury's fall is written the way it is is because it assumes a standard character and the rules do not specifically go out of their way to explain every possible caveat.
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just be cause you have two abilities that say you can add your dex instead of your str does not mean you apply dex twice.
Thing is, that's not the situation. Fury's Fall says nothing about "instead of your STR". So if you didn't have Weapon Finesse, you'd actually be getting both your STR and your DEX. Adding Weapon Finesse to the mix doesn't suddenly make it harder for you to trip people.
yep. and thats just a drawback of that combination.
these kinds of drawbacks happen some time.
(edit: opps was wrong about the masterwork issue)
remember the general rule of bonuses in pathfinder
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Bonus
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
enhancement bonuses dont stack, trait bonuses dont stack, shield bonuses dont stack, dex bonuses dont stack, str bonuses dont stack, etc etc. a bonus can be multiplied as it is when wielding a two handed weapon or using overhand chop, but the bonuses are not stacked except in very specific cases.
You missed the bit where the attack bonus from masterwork equipment is an enhancement bonus, and therefore won't stack with the enhancement bonus from magic, didn't you?
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yep. and thats just a drawback of that combination.
these kinds of drawbacks happen some time.
(edit: opps was wrong about the masterwork issue)
remember the general rule of bonuses in pathfinder
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Bonus
enhancement bonuses dont stack, trait bonuses dont stack, shield bonuses dont stack, dex bonuses dont stack, str bonuses dont stack, etc etc. a bonus can be multiplied as it is when wielding a two handed weapon or using overhand chop, but the bonuses are not stacked except in very specific cases.Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
See, I think you're off on this one, because I would look at Fury's Fall granting you an UNTYPED bonus EQUAL TO your Dex bonus.
first and fourth - fixed.
second dex bonus and dex modifier are the same thing
specifically stated here
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Determine- Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you'll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
with that in mind when weapon fines says add your dex modifier
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat---final
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
and Fury's Fall says use your dex bonus
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fury-s-fall-combat
Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
they are both talking about a dexterity bonus with is a BONUS which does not stack
third dex bonus is a bonus which comes from your dexterity which is a dexterity typed bonus. dexterity type bonuses do not stack.
My read of it says yes, you would get Dex twice (but, of course, no Str).
The FAQ/Errata on Weapon Finesse clearly allows you to use Dex instead of Str for CMB on trip, and Fury's Fall allows you to add your Dex modifier to your CMB. There is no reason to deny a player the ability to use two synergistic feats in this way.
dexterity is an attribute
the modifier or bonus you gain from your attribute is a typed bonus.
thus a character with a 16 dexterity has a +3 dexterity bonus.
furys fall for example specifically says ADD YOUR DEXTERITY BONUS which would not stack on the application of DEXTERITY BONUS that you get from weapon finesse.
If the GM of your game wants to house rule that you get to stack your dex bonus in this situation that is an entirely reasonable decision and more power to you.
but the question is in the RULES section of the forums which implies the OP wants to understand the pathfinder RAW and the RULES for Pathfinder state that you cant stack bonuses.
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CMB is not your Dex Bonus, though.
Here's the logic:
CMB = BAB + Str Bonus + SSM.
Weapon Finesse allows the replacement of the Str Bonus with Dex Bonus for certain CMs.
End result is my final normal CMB for those particular CMs.
The source of the modifiers actually doesn't matter, at this point. That is my CMB.
I then pick up Fury's Fall which allows me to add my Dex bonus to my existing CMB when I use Trip.
I am adding my "Attribute Modifier type" bonus for Dex to my "Combat Maneuver type" bonus. These bonuses are not of the same type. They stack.
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CMB is not your Dex Bonus, though.
Here's the logic:
CMB = BAB + Str Bonus + SSM.
Weapon Finesse allows the replacement of the Str Bonus with Dex Bonus for certain CMs.
End result is my final normal CMB for those particular CMs.
The source of the modifiers actually doesn't matter, at this point. That is my CMB.
I then pick up Fury's Fall which allows me to add my Dex bonus to my existing CMB when I use Trip.
I am adding my "Attribute Modifier type" bonus for Dex to my "Combat Maneuver type" bonus. These bonuses are not of the same type. They stack.
This. Weapon Finesse lets you CALCULATE your CMB using Dex instead of Str, and then Fury's Fall gives you an untyped bonus to that total CMB score equal to your Dex modifier. I think this is pretty clear.
{stuff}This. Weapon Finesse lets you CALCULATE your CMB using Dex instead of Str, and then Fury's Fall gives you an untyped bonus to that total CMB score equal to your Dex modifier. I think this is pretty clear.
I have to agree. You are calculating CMB separately to Fury's Fall adding a bonus: You ADD dex bonus to CMB. How you arrive at the base CMB has no bearing on what you are adding to it.
Otherwise you end up in the rather silly situation of using Weapon Finesse or Agile Maneuvers with Fury's Fall which should lead to an increase in your chances of success instead merely robbing you of your Strength bonus.
Now it may be that the intention of Fury's Fall was that the total CMB should include both strength and dexterity bonuses, but if that is the case it was badly written and should have had a specific clause in to say that if you used dex bonus in your CMB you instead added Str bonus to the score with Fury's Fall.
the base CMB calculation is
BAB + STR(bonus) + SMM
furys fall lets you add your Dex(bonus) making the total
BAB + STR(bonus) + SMM + DEX(bonus)/b]
weapon finess lets you CALCULATE your CMB using Dex instead of STR.
[b]BAB + DEX(bonus) + SMM
but when you use weapons finess AND furys fall togeather the equation becomes
BAB + DEX(bonus) + SMM + DEX(bonus)
this is an illegal equation as you are adding your DEX bonus twice
It seems pretty clear to me. if you can tell me where dex bonus becomes and untimely bonus specifically for the purpose of furys fall then I guess your right. But as I understand it a dex bonus is a dex bonus and it cant be added to the same calculation twice.
alchemical, armor, circumstance, competence, deflection, dodge, enhancement, insight, luck, morale, natural armor, profane, racial, resistance, shield, size and trait.
if thats the case than furys fall is asking you to add a bonus that does not exist. and the above URLs to rules on modifiers and bonuses apparently do not know what they are talking about since they are making rules about bonuses that according to you do not exist.
note: if my links are bad please look them up yourself as I am having problems getting the link tag to work right. you should be able to copy and past the URLs in.
since I am posting this for the OPs benefit I will let you have the last word and play the game as you see fit.
I was only explaining the rules as written. they are not expressly clear but thats how they work.
The character's CMB is what, precisely?
Let's throw numbers at it, to keep it sweet.
BAB +6
Str: -2
Dex: +3
Size: +0
Character has the feats Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall.
When making a non-weapon CM check, the bonus is:
CMB = +6[BAB] -2[Str] +0[SSM] = +4
When making a weapon-based CM check, the bonus is:
CMB = +6[BAB] +3[Dex] +0[SSM] = +9
Fury's Fall grants the ability to add the Dex Bonus to the CMB when making the specific weapon-based CM check for a Trip.
Your contention is that for having spent a Feat, the character's CMB when using trip should be +7. Which is worse than if he had not taken the Feat.
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My feeling is no. Because the whole flavor of the feat is that it allows you to use your strength and dexterity in conjunction. It does not make you any worse, instead it would allow you to add your strength modifier to your CMB for tripping if you are tripping using Weapon Finesse. If you dumped on you strength score, don't take the feat.
That is my interpretation of the feat and I am sticking to it. :)
Thank you to everyone for chiming in.
My take is that the point of the feat is to add DEX to the total.
How you got there is beside the point.
As this seems to be the oppinion of almost everyone, thats what I'm going with.
Again, thank you to all.
as noted if you read above or in the abilities section.
your ability modifier is called a bonus or a penalty.
for all intents and purposes ability modifier and ability bonus are the same thing.
clear evidence of this is found in the fact that most feats or abilities say add your [stat} bonus. as in DEX bonus or STR bonus.
you dont have to agree with how it works. I could be wrong and will freely admit that i am wrong, if you can explain to me exactly where it states that dex MODIFIER and dex BONUS are totally different things I will concede the point.
OP: Play it as you or your GM want to play it, no sweat off my back but the RAW states it works. I am certain about the rule which is why i am actually referencing rules rather than making guesses that fit my view.
A developer chimed in on overhead chop but I can't find the quote.
Nothing from SKR, but the guy who wrote it clarified:
He adds double his STR bonus.
Instead of 1.5 x his STR bonus (which is the normal benefit).
OP: Play it as you or your GM want to play it, no sweat off my back but the RAW states it works. I am certain about the rule which is why i am actually referencing rules rather than making guesses that fit my view.
Um, Now I am confused.
I agree
the RAW states it works.
I thought you were trying to say that it did NOT work.
my mistake, I agree with you that it works.
for all intents and purposes ability modifier and ability bonus are the same thing.
Ability Scores: "A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty."
So when your CMB is calculated using your Strength modifier, that means if you have a strength score of 8, you apply that -1 penalty to your CMB.
If CMB was calculated using your Strength bonus, instead of your modifier, then someone with a strength score of 8 would not take the -1 penalty, because it's a penalty and not a bonus.
Sorry Furmonger, I misstyped.
in my understanding of the RAW,
it does NOT work because your essentially adding the same bonus twice.
there are times when you can multiply a bonus (as with overhand chop) but you can never ADD the same bonus twice except in very special situations.
if you read the rules on bonuses and abilities it makes it pretty clear.
I admit that the way they wrote the feat leaves an opening for interpretation but it seems as if your looking for a specific line of text that says something like "this feat does not stack with weapon finesse" but you have to understand that the developers would find it hard to write specific rules for every possible spell, feat, ability, etc interaction.
so instead they do their best with general rules and expect the players to do a the research.
your question is a valid one and im glad you asked it. but the bottom line is that as far as I can tell the rules wont let you add the same stat bonus twice in this case.
once again though... if the GM of your game is ok with house ruling this that cool and more power too you.
but thats not the pathfinder rule.
Design Manager
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blue_the_wolf is correct here. Essentially, in the situation described, Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall are accomplishing the same thing, that is, adding your Dex bonus to your Trip attempt. These bonuses won't stack, as it is the SAME bonus that you are given access to from two different sources.
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@Ssalarn: Not to correct you, but they are not the same thing. Fury's Fall is like Intimidating Prowess, that allows you to add your Dex AND Str modifiers together for the purposes of Trip CMB. Now if the Furmonger's character has a Str mod, he can add that to his CMB, effectively the same as not using Weapon Finesse in conjunction with his Trip attempt, to gain a +1 or +2 to his Trip (for a 12-15 Str). So it has a benefit, it just does not benefit him as much as doubling his Dex modifier.
if dexterity modifier is a bonus, then it's an untyped bonus. thus it stacks. tripping is already difficult enough. lets just throw the finessers a freaking bone already. they already suck at damage, lets give them trip domination as compensation.
prone isn't really too bad a penalty. just a mere -4. and the finesser likely doesn't have threatening reach or anything. so they would have to be setting up a proper melee guy to deal the damage for him.
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you'll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
Bonus Types
Combat Maneuvers
During combat, you can attempt to perform a number of maneuvers that can hinder or even cripple your foe, including bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip. Although these maneuvers have vastly different results, they all use a similar mechanic to determine success.Combat Maneuver Bonus: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Bonus (or CMB) that represents its skill at performing combat maneuvers. A creature's CMB is determined using the following formula:
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
Creatures that are size Tiny or smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB. The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers.
Fury's Fall (Combat)
You can use Strength and agility to send foes crashing to the ground.
Prerequisites: Improved Trip.
Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
Point to me the bit that explains what Bonus Type a bonus as a result of ability score modifier is. Because if it has no Bonus Type, then it's untyped, and stacks with anything.
Ultimately, yes, GM ruling overrules anything we say here, but when arguing RAW, make sure the rules say what you think they do.
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if dexterity modifier is a bonus, then it's an untyped bonus. thus it stacks. tripping is already difficult enough. lets just throw the finessers a freaking bone already. they already suck at damage, lets give them trip domination as compensation.
prone isn't really too bad a penalty. just a mere -4. and the finesser likely doesn't have threatening reach or anything. so they would have to be setting up a proper melee guy to deal the damage for him.
No, just NO. I have been on the receiving end of a Trip monkey, and it is irritating. If you want to trip, then do it with what you got. It is easy enough to make a viable trip finesse character that you don't need to allow them to double up on their Dex mod, which by any decent level is usually around +5. Add a +1 BAB and Improved and Greater Trip, you have a good enough chance to trip almost any opponent.
Sorry for the rant. It just strikes a nerve...
The description counts for something in terms of RAW, so I would rule against it in this circumstance.
@Ssalarn: Not to correct you, but they are not the same thing. Fury's Fall is like Intimidating Prowess, that allows you to add your Dex AND Str modifiers together for the purposes of Trip CMB. Now if the Furmonger's character has a Str mod, he can add that to his CMB, effectively the same as not using Weapon Finesse in conjunction with his Trip attempt, to gain a +1 or +2 to his Trip (for a 12-15 Str). So it has a benefit, it just does not benefit him as much as doubling his Dex modifier.
I agree with you that this is how it should work if we interpret the fluff literally, and I have no problem with that, but it is not what the feat says, which is that you add your dex modifier to your CMB. If you have Weapon Finesse or Agile Maneuvers, that's a separate issue; your CMB is what it is, whether it is calculated from dex or str modifier, once it is calculated it is your CMB, a black box if you like. So you just add your Dex modifier onto it again, regardless of how it was devised.
So if I get that right your saying the Formula all things considered should be something like this.
StrMod+BAB+SSM=CMB Then Add fury's Fall as it says it adds to your CMB
So with Weapon Finesse it should be
DexMod+BAB+SSM=CMB+Fury'sFall(Dex)= Total CMB for trip ??
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No offense, but it is not a separate issue. For this feat, the description for fluff points to the intention of the developer. It is the same as any other feat. Now if the GM chooses to ignore the fluff, then that's his prerogative, but the OP is asking, for this feat, does it do what he is asking.
In that case, I say no.
But there have been many a time that I have asked a GM if I could reflavor a feat. If that were the case, fine. As long as you can talk your GM into it.
I have been always answering based on the original question. I am not weighing in on the arguments on whether or not it is possible to stack his Dex bonus with his Dex bonus. I am saying that the feat does not do that.
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@Delos - Yeah that's what they are saying, and I am saying no.
@ Dabbler - It seems pretty clear cut. If someone is going to argue Rules as Written, they cannot edit out pieces of information that are given in the description. Take it as a whole. It's like taking comments in the news out of context.
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Design Manager
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@Ssalarn: Not to correct you, but they are not the same thing. Fury's Fall is like Intimidating Prowess, that allows you to add your Dex AND Str modifiers together for the purposes of Trip CMB. Now if the Furmonger's character has a Str mod, he can add that to his CMB, effectively the same as not using Weapon Finesse in conjunction with his Trip attempt, to gain a +1 or +2 to his Trip (for a 12-15 Str). So it has a benefit, it just does not benefit him as much as doubling his Dex modifier.
Aeshuura, you'll note that in my post I specifically said "in the situation described". I am aware of how Fury's Fall works, and the mechanics behind it, I was pointing out that IN THIS SPECIFIC scenario, the feats were accomplishing the same purpose, and do not stack.
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A developer chimed in on overhead chop but I can't find the quote.Nothing from SKR, but the guy who wrote it clarified:
He adds double his STR bonus.
Instead of 1.5 x his STR bonus (which is the normal benefit).
Thanks! It's not what I remember though, guess im psycho now. It's good to be free, muhahahah.