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changing the words to something completely different doesn't help.
it might help you , but you already don't see the problem.
if your replace your strength bonus with your dexterity bonus. you've already added your dexterity bonus once, which by the rules of stacking, precludes you from adding your dexterity bonus again.
there's no problem with the feat. there's a problem with the evolution of people who take the feat and make characters that want to apply their dexterity bonus twice. which isn't what happens when you consider all of the rules as a whole.
TLDR this whole thread: got a good str and a good dex? take Fury's Fall. Purely a dex based build? avoid Fury's Fall, just take Agile Maneuvers.
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CMB is not a modifier. It is the formula for applying other modifiers to Combat Maneuvers.
Also a post to James Jacobs addressed this earlier in the thread. It's all pretty neatly wrapped up.
Your lemon/apple pie analogy is just nonsense. You're not adding lemons on top, you're replacing the butter in the crust (STR) with margarine (DEX). All that adding more is going to get you is a hot mess. I.E. It doesn't work.
the player clearly invested several feats to get Dex x2 on trips. let them. the CMDs of most monsters practically makes this a requirement. as many of them are already pretty darn difficult to trip already.
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the player clearly invested several feats to get Dex x2 on trips. let them. the CMDs of most monsters practically makes this a requirement. as many of them are already pretty darn difficult to trip already.
It's not about what you think is fair. It's about whether or not it is legal by the rules. It's why the question is in the Rules forum, not the Homebrew section. And it's not legal. We've laid out the reasons why, and James Jacobs has explained it as well.
the player clearly invested several feats to get Dex x2 on trips. let them. the CMDs of most monsters practically makes this a requirement. as many of them are already pretty darn difficult to trip already.It's not about what you think is fair. It's about whether or not it is legal by the rules. It's why the question is in the Rules forum, not the Homebrew section. And it's not legal. We've laid out the reasons why, and James Jacobs has explained it as well.
JJ isn't even a developer. and there is no clause prohibiting Fury's Fall from being combined with either weapon finesse or agile manuevers for 2x Dex mod to trips.
it also doesn't list dexterity modifier as a typed bonus. and untyped bonuses stack. the sources are even different. 2 completely different feats.
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**Blah blah blah**
First off, James Jacobs is the Freaking Creative Director of Paizo, you know, the company that makes Pathfinder? While Jason Buhlman and Sean Reynolds are typically the ones to address rules via FAQ and Errata, you'd have to be a bit of a moron to discount JJ's input lacking another Paizo staff member weighing in. Untyped bonuses stack with everything except themselves. So if you've already added your DEX mod in, it doesn't stack with itself, and that is RAW. There isn't a clause, there's a flat out plain written rule.
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they don't list every itemized "type" of bonuses. because that way they can add new ones and not have to go back and add it everywhere that lists all the different bonus types.
that doesn't make it untyped. what does make something untyped is when it does something like "add a bonus equal to your dexterity modifier" , which fury's fall does not say it does.
**Blah blah blah**First off, James Jacobs is the Freaking Creative Director of Paizo, you know, the company that makes Pathfinder? While Jason Buhlman and Sean Reynolds are typically the ones to address rules via FAQ and Errata, you'd have to be a bit of moron to discount JJ's input lacking anything else. Untyped bonuses stack with everything except themselves. So if you've already added your DEX mod in, it doesn't stack with itself, and that is RAW. There isn't a clause, there's a flat out plain written rule.
both bonuses may be based off your dexterity modifier. but they are 2 seperate sources, and thus stack. those sources are weapon finesse and fury's fall.
weapon finesse allows you to replace strength with dexterity, fury's fall applies to your (Replaced by dex) strength. allowing dexterity modifier to effectively be applied twice.
in 3.5. unarmored monk/swordsages added double their wisdom bonus to AC.
and in PF, paladin/lore oracles are adding double their charisma bonus to reflex saves. this is no different.
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both bonuses may be based off your dexterity modifier. but they are 2 seperate sources, and thus stack. those sources are weapon finesse and fury's fall.
weapon finesse allows you to replace strength with dexterity, fury's fall applies to your (Replaced by dex) strength. allowing dexterity modifier to effectively be applied twice.
in 3.5. unarmored monk/swordsages added double their wisdom bonus to AC.
and in PF, paladin/lore oracles are adding double their charisma bonus to reflex saves. this is no different.
They are not bonuses "based off your DEX modifier". They ARE your DEX modifier. They both specifically add your DEX modifier. Abilities that bonuses based off modifier are worded like the paladin's Divine Grace which says "add a bonus equal to...". They don't say that. They say add you DEX mod, thus they're adding the exact same thing, thus they don't stack. If you had a feat and a class ability that both said "Add your shield bonus to your Fort save" you wouldn't add your shield bonus twice. You'd know that the feat is doing the same thing as your class ability and is meant to be taken by someone who isn't you.
and just because things are from different sources doesn't mean they automatically stack.
a belt of strength +2 and a casting of bull's strength will still only give you a +4 enhancement to strength.
those are both enhancement bonuses. though i think they should stack due to being different sources. i wouldn't allow stacking 2 strength belts or 2 bulls strength spells though.
Attribute Modifiers are an untyped bonus that isn't listed in the list of typed bonuses.
any why can an oracle/paladin double dip charisma to reflex saves? but a dexterity based tripper who spends 2 feats, double dip dexterity bonus to trip?
it looks cheesy on paper, but dex based trippers need this kind of stuff. because tripping most CR7+ monsters is otherwise nearly impossible at the correct levels.
the lore oracle/paladin exploited a dip for the munchkin benefit of increased reflexes above a normal paladin.
either way. you are double dipping a stat. why is one double dip okay but not the other?
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and just because things are from different sources doesn't mean they automatically stack.
a belt of strength +2 and a casting of bull's strength will still only give you a +4 enhancement to strength.
those are both enhancement bonuses. though i think they should stack due to being different sources. i wouldn't allow stacking 2 strength belts or 2 bulls strength spells though.
Attribute Modifiers are an untyped bonus that isn't listed in the list of typed bonuses.
any why can an oracle/paladin double dip charisma to reflex saves? but a dexterity based tripper who spends 2 feats, double dip dexterity bonus to trip?
it looks cheesy on paper, but dex based trippers need this kind of stuff. because tripping most CR7+ monsters is otherwise nearly impossible at the correct levels.
the lore oracle/paladin exploited a dip for the munchkin benefit of increased reflexes above a normal paladin.
either way. you are double dipping a stat. why is one double dip okay but not the other?
Because one double-dip isn't really. Paladin's Divine Grace gives them a bnonus "equal to" their Charisma, and the Oracle Sidestep ability allows him to use his CHA mod in place of his DEX mod for his Reflex saves. One is creating a new bonus equal to a modifier, the other is adding in the modifier.
In the case of Fury's Fall, Weapon Finesse, and Agile Maneuvers, they are all adding in the modifier. They are not creating a new bonus like Divine Grace, so they don't stack. They are all doing functionally the exact same thing, just with different parameters for when that thing happens. Agile Maneuvers is still worth taking for someone who has Weapon Finesse, because not all CMB checks are weapon based. It's not worth taking Fury's Fall with Agile Maneuvers, since you've already added your DEX in to your CMB, and it's not worth taking Fury's Fall with Weapon Finesse unless you have a positive STR modifier for the exact same reason.