Infernal Healing


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mdt wrote:

How much holy water is one dose?

A dose of holy water is the amount you need to use to actually use holy water.

How much holy water does it take to normally use holy water (throwing it in a vampires face for example)? Oh, cool, it's one flask. So, one dose = one flask.

Well since it says "Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible." in RAW, a dose comes out to less than a cp. So something like 1/25,001 of a vial...


i have no problems with Celestial/Infernal Healing

it heals a guaranteed 10 HP. but it takes 10 turns to heal all 10. there are 60 minutes in an hour or 600 turns. and 50 charges accomodates 500 turns or 50 minutes. in fact, using such a want to heal a high level party to full cheaply, could take a potential hour. the CLW wand heals half the amount as a standard action.

lets look at a group of 4 level 10 characters with an average of 120 HP apiece among them distributed in some assorted arrangement that gives front liners more and ranged combatants less

assuming 3 of them took around 90ish damage and the 4th about 30. that is 300 out of 480

you are talking about 60% of a single wand and a half hour to heal this 10th level party. 450 gold per fight in this scenario

but it took a half hour to heal

which taps into buff durations

and gives 30 minutes for an enemy to ambush you

i had no problems with lesser vigor either

and healing being exclusively divine?

healing shouldn't be exclusively divine, screws over the clericless parties. plus, i don't like the fact, that the only casters with healing spells that don't recieve a hit to either their healing spell progression, or to their casting in general, are the poster child for being a deities indentured servant.

appearantly, we cannot have a class who learns healing spells at the same rate as the cleric AND channels. hell, there isn't a class who learns healing spells at the cleric's rate whatsoever.

the oracle takes a hit to versatility and level progression, and taxed a specific mystery and revelation to channel

the witch and druid, take major hits to their healing progression, witch can take patron and tax hexes for free heals, but only once per hex per PC, druid can take the healing domain at the expense of their free martial ally

the bard, inquisitor, alchemist, paladin, ranger, and summoner take a hit to their spell progression, and the only thing the summoner can heal, is his eidolon. pally can channel with a huge hit to their self healing. ranger heals are so minimal they require wands to have enough resources. alchemist can take a discovery tax to produce potions of true ressurection

the Vitalist, takes a hit to their power points per day and can only heal so many PCs based on their level and wisdom bonus

monks can learn a few healing powers through quinggong, problem is, they lack the resources to rely on them


I have a character in a game I'm running who is using the Infernal Healing spell a lot-- 4 or 5 times a session at this point.

They're high enough level that they have access to Raise Dead and Reincarnation spells. If he ever gets killed and the party tries to raise him, he's going to be in for a surprise. A devil is going to show up and tell the party that the character's soul belongs to Hell, so no bringing him back.

It seems a little harsh to just spring this on him with no warning, so I should figure out a way to let the party know about it before it comes up. Maybe an NPC can tell them that using the spell a certain number of times results in damning the character's soul-- but of course, the NPC doesn't know exactly how many times it takes.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Trainwreck wrote:

I have a character in a game I'm running who is using the Infernal Healing spell a lot-- 4 or 5 times a session at this point.

They're high enough level that they have access to Raise Dead and Reincarnation spells. If he ever gets killed and the party tries to raise him, he's going to be in for a surprise. A devil is going to show up and tell the party that the character's soul belongs to Hell, so no bringing him back.

It seems a little harsh to just spring this on him with no warning, so I should figure out a way to let the party know about it before it comes up. Maybe an NPC can tell them that using the spell a certain number of times results in damning the character's soul-- but of course, the NPC doesn't know exactly how many times it takes.

Next time the character hit's negative hp, but isn't dead, have a devil poof into existence and politely wait for him to bleed out. Have him look disappointed if someone heals the character. "Well darn, ok, next time. Anyone need some more blood before I go?"

Alternately, they could, if high enough level, receive a quest to travel to Hell and retrieve a soul, and find out it is the soul of a wizard who cast infernal healing too often.


When in doubt, Trainwreck, use dreams. The character has nightmares where he's chained to a wrack, in the midst of a hellscape, being tortured by devils. They extract confessions from him, bringing to mind sins he's long since forgotten about. When he wakes up, he's not only frightened, but filled with guilt and remorse for all his past misdeeds.

Edit: Mdt's idea about the devil appearing to him whilst he's bleeding/negative hit points, is awesome! I'd have it appear only to him, though. None of the other party members would be able to see it, which would potentially cause him to doubt himself (maybe he imagined it). Coupled with the nightmares, the character will start to realize that something's up.


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Trainwreck wrote:
They're high enough level that they have access to Raise Dead and Reincarnation spells. If he ever gets killed and the party tries to raise him, he's going to be in for a surprise. A devil is going to show up and tell the party that the character's soul belongs to Hell, so no bringing him back.

That's harsh. DM fiat that he isn't allowed to be resurrected because he's using a heal spell. Resurrection spells to rip someone from hell actually take a CL check, but they don't kill you permanently usually.

Do you plan to kick the player in the face too? I mean what did he do to you that makes you hate him!?


I'd recommend that you use the "Damned" class ability from the Diabolist.

Quote:

Damned

When a diabolist is killed, her soul is instantly sent to Hell. Any character attempting to resurrect her must succeed at a caster level check equal to 10 + the diabolist's level or her spell fails. That character cannot attempt to resurrect the diabolist again until the following day, though other characters can attempt as they please.


Yeah, some good things to consider here (which is why I posted it on a message board). Thanks.


i don't even consider Infernal Healing an evil act, i don't even care if a good aligned character uses it.

in fact, because evil characters have it, and good characters don't i houserule a good equivalent called Celestial Healing that uses angel tears instead of devil's blood, or holy water instead of unholy water

i find it unfair that this spell is usable by evil characters, but not their good counterparts.

especially when it sounds more like a good spell than an evil one.


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I have no problem with the celestial version of the spell, but I like how others have handled infernal healing. The feelings of power, coupled with evil thoughts that accompany the infernal healing makes for a sinister spell. Devils have spread the use of this spell, which on its face appears to help people, with the intention of corrupting, rather than healing (hence the [evil] descriptor). This is exactly what I'd expect of devils.


On the other hand, the use of angel tears in the celestial version might cause the target of the spell to feel empathy for the angel. This empathic link with a good-aligned outsider might cause them to feel remorse for their own misdeeds, leading to redemption (hence the [good] descriptor).


mdt wrote:
Again, any spell with [Alignment] is, inherently, calling forth the essence of that alignment to do it's job. Think of it as being infected with otherworldly bacteria if it helps. Are you going to catch the martian flu from 1 bacteria? No, probably not. How about from 10? 100? 1000? 100000? Eventually that bacteria is going to get strong enough to infect you. How much it takes depends on each person's health.

So just toss out some Protection from Evil spells in your spare time, keep a list and balancing the scales of the alignment game is easy.

Anyway, the real danger is the MPAA (Magic Powers Advancement Association) hears a case from the church of Asmodeus and agrees that the PC does indeed owe them eleventy billion gold pieces for using a copyrighted spell.


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Infernal Healing is like cholesterol. It'll get you in the end. ;)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
ElyasRavenwood wrote:

In terms of Infernal healing,

I have a PFS Magus who owns a wand if Infernal Healing, and he has the spell in his book. He often keeps one memorized.

I do have a friend with a paladin who has nicknamed my character "Mithos, the Morally Ambiguous Magus". While playing together, i would often solicitously ask " sir Paladin Thou art Grieveously wounded...Mayhaps I could assist thee with this little wand....it will only hurt a little bit....." "no " "It is only one little spell" " i can heal myself" the paladin" would reply .

The only reason my character has this spell, is because it is the only healing spell available to an arcane caster. There have been times when I have played in parties with no healer, and no one who could use a cure light wounds wand. So what does that leave my character with? the infernal healing spell.

If the fluff were different about the spell, i would go for it in a heart beat.

In a home game, the simplest solution I could think of would be to change the fluff and the materiel component of the spell.

I am sure there are other powers that can heal.....
Perhaps the fey?

anyways,

Is the Infernal healing spell evil? yes its in the descriptor. Is it a "bad" thing to do? I suppose so, calling on the power of Asmodeus repeatedly cant be a good thing. How will it affect your character and his/her alignment over the long term?" Well that is up to the GM.

You cite exactly the reason why it is a "bad" spell. It allow healing powers to arcane caster that have no reason to get them (bards and witches have cure spells, but they pay for them losing other powers).


Detect Magic wrote:
I have no problem with the celestial version of the spell, but I like how others have handled infernal healing.

Yeah, I like flavor, but people have to go out of their way to make up a reason why it was evil. Could you imagine if fireball was [evil]?

Diego Rossi wrote:
You cite exactly the reason why it is a "bad" spell. It allow healing powers to arcane caster that have no reason to get them (bards and witches have cure spells, but they pay for them losing other powers).

Oh noes, out of combat healing? They aren't exactly stealing anyone's role.

Liberty's Edge

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mdt wrote:
Drejk wrote:
mdt wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
I like it Lumiere. BUT the problem is that healing has always been mostly a Divine niche, and that's better than CLW. So is Infernal healing, which is why it's so broken.
Cure Light Wounds doesn't require 25gp component.
Neither do infernal healing... Just grab a random devil and bleed it dry. Unholy water is for evil characters anyway, while devils' blood can be acquired while fighting evil.

Wasn't the point. The point was, the suggested spell required something that cost 25gp, and was better than a spell from the same level that didn't.

Personally, in my game, getting devils blood is expensive unless you're fighting devils. So that puts this spell out of the use of people below a certain level, and even then it requires fighting them. You can always go to hell and fight some I suppose, but again, certain level, and the devils would get wise to you after awhile. Easier to make deals with them to get it. Oh wait.. pacts with evil creatures...

Devil blood has no listed price.

Who developed the spell should have specified a cost for the devil blood. As he didn't that, it is a free item that you will have in your spell pouch.
Maybe devils are bleeding themselves and giving the blood away for free as a way to tempt people.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Who developed the spell should have specified a cost for the devil blood.

No, no he shouldn't have. Its a level one spell that heals 10 hps. Nothing groundbreaking or overpowered about that. Lots of spell components are rare or strange but have no price.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

i have no problems with Celestial/Infernal Healing

it heals a guaranteed 10 HP. but it takes 10 turns to heal all 10. there are 60 minutes in an hour or 600 turns. and 50 charges accomodates 500 turns or 50 minutes. in fact, using such a want to heal a high level party to full cheaply, could take a potential hour. the CLW wand heals half the amount as a standard action.

l

Casting time 1 round. Then the spell works by itself.

After 50 rounds (5 minutes) you have exhausted the wand, after 59 rounds the last hit point has been cured. That is, if you have 10+ characters to heal.
If you have only a 4 man party, with no cohorts, animal companions and c. you will cast 4 spells in 4 rounds, then wait another 6 rounds for the spell to have run his course on the first character (the spell don't stack with itself, so there is no advantage on having multiple infernal healing on the same character) and cast it again.
So you can heal 34 hp of damage in the first minute and the 40 hp of damage every minute after that.
The wand would be depleted in 12 minutes and 12 seconds, after casting infernal healing 13 times on 2 characters and 12 times on the two others characters.

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:


assuming 3 of them took around 90ish damage and the 4th about 30. that is 300 out of 480

you are talking about 60% of a single wand and a half hour to heal this 10th level party. 450 gold per fight in this scenario

but it took a half hour to heal

9 minutes and 18 seconds to heal the third guy with 90 hp of damage. You have 4 people befitting from the wand at the same time.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
MrSin wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Who developed the spell should have specified a cost for the devil blood.
No, no he shouldn't have. Its a level one spell that heals 10 hps. Nothing groundbreaking or overpowered about that. Lots of spell components are rare or strange but have no price.

When you step on the toes of another class it shouldn't be free.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Who developed the spell should have specified a cost for the devil blood.
No, no he shouldn't have. Its a level one spell that heals 10 hps. Nothing groundbreaking or overpowered about that. Lots of spell components are rare or strange but have no price.

When you step on the toes of another class it shouldn't be free.

It doesn't step on anyones toes. Worse, if you force everyone to not be able to do something then it forces someone to play a particular class to fill the role. Not everyone wants to play a divine caster.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MrSin wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Who developed the spell should have specified a cost for the devil blood.
No, no he shouldn't have. Its a level one spell that heals 10 hps. Nothing groundbreaking or overpowered about that. Lots of spell components are rare or strange but have no price.

When you step on the toes of another class it shouldn't be free.

It doesn't step on anyones toes. Worse, if you force everyone to not be able to do something then it forces someone to play a particular class to fill the role. Not everyone wants to play a divine caster.

How dare those stupid pompous idiotic developers want to keep all healing tied down to divine casters! Don't they realize that someone might want to play an int based arcane healer (*cough-witch-cough*) or a charisma based arcane healer (*cough-bard-cough*).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
mdt wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Who developed the spell should have specified a cost for the devil blood.
No, no he shouldn't have. Its a level one spell that heals 10 hps. Nothing groundbreaking or overpowered about that. Lots of spell components are rare or strange but have no price.

When you step on the toes of another class it shouldn't be free.

It doesn't step on anyones toes. Worse, if you force everyone to not be able to do something then it forces someone to play a particular class to fill the role. Not everyone wants to play a divine caster.
How dare those stupid pompous idiotic developers want to keep all healing tied down to divine casters! Don't they realize that someone might want to play an int based arcane healer (*cough-witch-cough*) or a charisma based arcane healer (*cough-bard-cough*).

The witch and bard pay for that. Their spell list is noticeably different from that of a sorcerer or wizard.


mdt wrote:
How dare those stupid pompous idiotic developers want to keep all healing tied down to divine casters! Don't they realize that someone might want to play an int based arcane healer (*cough-witch-cough*) or a charisma based arcane healer (*cough-bard-cough*).

What's your point? I've had plenty of parties in PFS without anyone who can heal outside of infernal healing. Its pretty useful then! PFS expects healing between encounters if possible too, so... without it you can get pretty messed up. Mind you its out of combat healing, so its not like your stealing something the cleric or oracle can do and doing it better. Its the same argument as needing a rogue though, not everyone wants to play one, so creating a niche by taking away options from others is one of the worst ways to handle it.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I think infernal healing is a great spell, but not for every group. Caveat: I do kind of wish infernal healing was not on quite so many class spell lists.

Infernal healing allows for some cool unorthodox characters, like my infernal sorcerer who acts like Asmodean clergy. It provides a safety valve for parties that might not have enough healing available otherwise. It neatly ties to the fact that many devils have regeneration, kind of answering how a wizard might try to unlock healing powers without a deific connection to the positive or negative planes.

It does sort of step on cure light wounds's toes for after-combat healing, but it is a terrible in-combat healing spell. As a pre-combat buff, it fits perfectly on the arcane lists alongside spells like false life.

The reason it doesn't work for every group is that it is balanced in fluff. This spell is a poster child for Evil being "quicker, easier, more seductive." (I made a similar point about lichdom versus immortality capstones awhile ago.) It's an [Evil] spell, and marks the patient/victim as Evil for the duration. That's some creepy s~*! right there. It lets you play with the idea of consenting to receive spells. It lets you dangle temptation in front of players/characters who consider themselves Good. Devil blood being the material component also makes it fit the 'wizards experimenting with forces they shouldn't' trope. It lets the PCs have useful magic powers they are wary of showing off in public.

But lets say that wizard experimented with trolls for regeneration instead of devils. The same spell, without an alignment sub-type, named trollish vigor, using troll blood as the mechanical component, would be broken as a Wiz/Sor spell. (Though it might still make a neat Druid spell, the same way reincarnate contrasts with raise dead.) It's a little gross, but it isn't the same ethical quandary as infernal healing.

But if you're a group, or even just a player, that just sees mechanical upside without mechanical downside (like organized play often ends up being), then yeah, it's a broken spell that messes with basic assumptions of how the game works. Because then there's no difference between infernal healing and trollish vigor.


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Balancing fluff with mechanics makes me sad... It doesn't work that well. Great for flavor sure, but its not mechanical balance at all.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

MrSin wrote:
Balancing fluff with mechanics makes me sad... It doesn't work that well. Great for flavor sure, but its not mechanical balance at all.

My entire point is that is works GREAT for some groups, but its TERRIBLE for others. From your response, you're in the latter category. (This is not automatically a bad thing, just different.)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Bean-counting is not something you do for alignment. There is no X amount of evil acts to be countered by X good acts.

If you want spells with alignment descriptors to have an effect on character alignments, tell your players up front.


Well, I mean I get it works great for some and terrible for others for flavor and fluff, but what I mostly don't like is that fluff doesn't really balance mechanics; or at least I don't really think it does.

Its also something left more to the GM's whim than anything, which is something I put very little faith or trust in. Up thread you have someone saying that using infernal healing means that the devil takes your soul and you can't be rezzed for instance, which I think its a big extreme. I've got plenty of horror stories about things left to the GM's whim, so I much prefer mechanical things and then allowing individual tables to make the fluff of the setting. When you just label something as evil sometimes GMs go out of their way to give it whatever reason to be evil for instance.

I also don't see 10 hps over 10 rounds as overpowered at all; regardless of alignment. In the end it just becomes another healstick, which is necessary for the game on many levels.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Bean-counting is not something you do for alignment. There is no X amount of evil acts to be countered by X good acts.

There is the little chart thingy in Ultimate Campaign. Though the last time I saw it used there was an incredible amount of confirmation bias, no warning, and the player was forced out of his monk class to do it. Was pretty bothered to see it, but not my game so... whatev's I guess.


Trainwreck wrote:

I have a character in a game I'm running who is using the Infernal Healing spell a lot-- 4 or 5 times a session at this point.

They're high enough level that they have access to Raise Dead and Reincarnation spells. If he ever gets killed and the party tries to raise him, he's going to be in for a surprise. A devil is going to show up and tell the party that the character's soul belongs to Hell, so no bringing him back.

It seems a little harsh to just spring this on him with no warning, so I should figure out a way to let the party know about it before it comes up. Maybe an NPC can tell them that using the spell a certain number of times results in damning the character's soul-- but of course, the NPC doesn't know exactly how many times it takes.

Is he not doing any good deeds? If he is, then this is pure BS. You can't just count the evil deeds (never mind the fact that this spell being evil is BS). You have to take the whole of his actions into account.


Detect Magic wrote:
I have no problem with the celestial version of the spell, but I like how others have handled infernal healing. The feelings of power, coupled with evil thoughts that accompany the infernal healing makes for a sinister spell. Devils have spread the use of this spell, which on its face appears to help people, with the intention of corrupting, rather than healing (hence the [evil] descriptor). This is exactly what I'd expect of devils.

Citation needed. The spell says nothing of the sort. This is your houserule/campaign at work, not RAW or even RAI by any stretch of the imagination.


Zhayne wrote:
Is he not doing any good deeds? If he is, then this is pure BS. You can't just count the evil deeds (never mind the fact that this spell being evil is BS). You have to take the whole of his actions into account.

Maybe in his game level one spells greatly out weight saving orphans? In some games I play your hard-pressed to find the party doing any good deeds... Its his game so obviously I don't know what else is going on, though personally, I see dragged to hell no save, no rez as a pretty hefty fine. Especially for first level spells used as healsticks.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

Bean-counting is not something you do for alignment. There is no X amount of evil acts to be countered by X good acts.

If you want spells with alignment descriptors to have an effect on character alignments, tell your players up front.

It's so mathematical as that, but yes, that is how it works. You look at all of the character's actions. You can't just count the evil stuff without taking everything else into account.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Wait, there's a celestial version?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Wait, there's a celestial version?

Lumiere posted an example of one up thread. It used angel's tears.

Side note, but the idea that evil is seductive and good doesn't get nice things just reminds me of Space Balls. "Evil will always win, because good is dumb".


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
MDT wrote:


How dare those stupid pompous idiotic developers want to keep all healing tied down to divine casters! Don't they realize that someone might want to play an int based arcane healer (*cough-witch-cough*) or a charisma based arcane healer (*cough-bard-cough*).
The witch and bard pay for that. Their spell list is noticeably different from that of a sorcerer or wizard.

Yep,

That's sort of my point. In other words, why should the wizard be able to heal (the main reason a Cleric has for being played) BETTER than the cleric? There needs to be a balance, or you basically have 'wonderwizard'. I hate the spell personally, even with the [evil] on it, but at least that tends to balance it. Without that, it blows the powercurve on wizards even further out of whack.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

i have no problems with Celestial/Infernal Healing

it heals a guaranteed 10 HP. but it takes 10 turns to heal all 10. there are 60 minutes in an hour or 600 turns. and 50 charges accomodates 500 turns or 50 minutes. in fact, using such a want to heal a high level party to full cheaply, could take a potential hour. the CLW wand heals half the amount as a standard action.

lets look at a group of 4 level 10 characters with an average of 120 HP apiece among them distributed in some assorted arrangement that gives front liners more and ranged combatants less

assuming 3 of them took around 90ish damage and the 4th about 30. that is 300 out of 480

you are talking about 60% of a single wand and a half hour to heal this 10th level party. 450 gold per fight in this scenario

but it took a half hour to heal

which taps into buff durations

and gives 30 minutes for an enemy to ambush you

i had no problems with lesser vigor either

Minor point - this actually took 9-10 minutes. Each character can only have one active at a time, but we really need only consider the time it takes to heal the most damaged. Your points about that hitting buff durations is fair still (although only really relevant for minutes/level where 30 would start to make me think about 10 minutes/level), as is the enemy prep time. That said, if the enemies prepped when they came in, their buffs might be running out, too.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MrSin wrote:
mdt wrote:
How dare those stupid pompous idiotic developers want to keep all healing tied down to divine casters! Don't they realize that someone might want to play an int based arcane healer (*cough-witch-cough*) or a charisma based arcane healer (*cough-bard-cough*).
What's your point? I've had plenty of parties in PFS without anyone who can heal outside of infernal healing. Its pretty useful then! PFS expects healing between encounters if possible too, so... without it you can get pretty messed up. Mind you its out of combat healing, so its not like your stealing something the cleric or oracle can do and doing it better. Its the same argument as needing a rogue though, not everyone wants to play one, so creating a niche by taking away options from others is one of the worst ways to handle it.

You completely missed the point. The point is, yes, the bard and witch aren't as good at healing as the cleric. But with this spell the wizard is absolutely better than the cleric. Guaranteed 10hp every cast.

What you basically want is the wizard to be able to do every type of spell, without any balance to it.

ANd if you don't like PFS, don't play.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
mdt wrote:
Guaranteed 10hp every cast.

For the price of 11 rounds over 1 standard action.


mdt wrote:
In other words, why should the wizard be able to heal (the main reason a Cleric has for being played) BETTER than the cleric?

Clerics are useful for WAY more than healing. 9 level casting, 3/4 BAB, and the flavor of being a priest. Ditto with oracles who have the same thing, but with revelations/mysteries instead of domains and a slightly different flavor.

They also don't do it better. The spell is useful as a healstick or maybe as a(weak) pre combat buff. Its definitely not useful to heal in combat, and because it doesn't scale the cleric passes it pretty quickly.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
mdt wrote:
Guaranteed 10hp every cast.
For the price of 11 rounds over 1 standard action.

Yep, and out of combat, that beats a cleric hands down.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MrSin wrote:
mdt wrote:
In other words, why should the wizard be able to heal (the main reason a Cleric has for being played) BETTER than the cleric?

Clerics are useful for WAY more than healing. 9 level casting, 3/4 BAB, and the flavor of being a priest. Ditto with oracles who have the same thing, but with revelations/mysteries instead of domains and a slightly different flavor.

They also don't do it better. The spell is useful as a healstick or maybe as a(weak) pre combat buff. Its definitely not useful to heal in combat, and because it doesn't scale the cleric passes it pretty quickly.

So why does the wizard need to heal better than the cleric with his first level spells? Why can't he just do what we've always done and use a wand of cure light? That UMD is great for other things, most wizards get it anyway.


mdt wrote:
What you basically want is the wizard to be able to do every type of spell, without any balance to it.

I didn't say that anywhere. I mean, a bit of variety doesn't hurt, but I sure didn't say I wanted him to do everything and better than everyone else.

mdt wrote:
ANd if you don't like PFS, don't play.

I didn't say I don't like PFS in my post. Where are you getting your ideas from!?


mdt wrote:
So why does the wizard need to heal better than the cleric with his first level spells? Why can't he just do what we've always done and use a wand of cure light? That UMD is great for other things, most wizards get it anyway.

The first level spell doesn't actually heal better. At 5th level the average heal from a cure light wounds goes to 10.5, surpassing it. The cleric also has access to every pretty much every heal spell after that, plus infernal healing itself!

Its not a good idea to actually prepare infernal healing imo. You could prepare something like grease, or color spray. You put it on a wand.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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MrSin wrote:
Side note, but the idea that evil is seductive and good doesn't get nice things just reminds me of Space Balls. "Evil will always win, because good is dumb".

Good does get nice things. A Good cleric can heal circles around an Evil cleric, even if that evil cleric is equipped with infernal healing. There's no Good answer to animate dead, or to lichdom, or being bitten by a werewolf.

The difference is that Good has to work for it: a Good cleric has to believe, deep in their heart, that self-sacrifice and helping others is important, and the right thing to do. The selfishness and sin are temptations to be avoided, not pleasures to be embraced.

The idea that 'Good is dumb' is not an objective truth. It's just how Evil sees Good. Remember, villians don't wake just up and eat a basket of puppies because they are Evil. They are Evil because they are out for themselves. Because they view the weak as something they can exploit. They might know they are 'Evil', but they certainly don't believe they are wrong. To a truly Evil person, Good is dumb, misguided. They look at a person giving to a beggar, and see someone being taken advantage of by someone who doesn't even work. They see a caretaker at an orphanage and see someone taking care of children who aren't even theirs, and for a pittance. Evil sees Good as something it can exploit (which, see above, means Good is weak). For instance, Evil might set up a sham orphanage to collect charity and keep the cash, while keeping the orphans in squalor.

Evil may say 'Good is dumb', but Good says 'Evil is lazy, selfish, and short-sighted'. Both and neither of these things are true.


mdt wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
MDT wrote:


How dare those stupid pompous idiotic developers want to keep all healing tied down to divine casters! Don't they realize that someone might want to play an int based arcane healer (*cough-witch-cough*) or a charisma based arcane healer (*cough-bard-cough*).
The witch and bard pay for that. Their spell list is noticeably different from that of a sorcerer or wizard.

Yep,

That's sort of my point. In other words, why should the wizard be able to heal (the main reason a Cleric has for being played) BETTER than the cleric? There needs to be a balance, or you basically have 'wonderwizard'. I hate the spell personally, even with the [evil] on it, but at least that tends to balance it. Without that, it blows the powercurve on wizards even further out of whack.

You have got to be kidding me.

'Healing better'? Really, 10 HP over a minute when a cleric can set off a Channel as a standard? At 3rd level a Cure Light has the potential to out-heal Infernal Healing, and by then you have Cure Moderate. And status condition removal. And return from dead spells.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MrSin wrote:


mdt wrote:
ANd if you don't like PFS, don't play.
I didn't say I don't like PFS in my post. Where are you getting your ideas from!?

Let me point to it.

MrSin wrote:


What's your point? I've had plenty of parties in PFS without anyone who can heal outside of infernal healing. Its pretty useful then!

If you don't like the way PFS shoves random people and characters together, then don't play it. I don't like it, I don't play it.

Or you could, you know, play a healer in that case?

One of the issues I have with PFS is every time I've tried random people in random game under fixed subset of rules, I've ended up with selfish players who insist on playing only the one trick pony they bring to the table, and are unwilling to help fill out anything else. I do that in the games I play in now, I wait until everyone has picked, and then I choose something to compliment. I don't like playing with people who are 'me me me' all the time, and that's all I've ever run into with such organized play. :(


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MrSin wrote:
mdt wrote:
So why does the wizard need to heal better than the cleric with his first level spells? Why can't he just do what we've always done and use a wand of cure light? That UMD is great for other things, most wizards get it anyway.

The first level spell doesn't actually heal better. At 5th level the average heal from a cure light wounds goes to 10.5, surpassing it. The cleric also has access to every pretty much every heal spell after that, plus infernal healing itself!

Its not a good idea to actually prepare infernal healing imo. You could prepare something like grease, or color spray. You put it on a wand.

Then again I ask, why do you need to cast an [EVIL] spell, rather than casting cure light wounds via UMD?


Reliability and maybe you don't have a good Charisma and UMD isn't on your skill list.

Grand Lodge

Because I can't UMD to save my life.


Vydale Mystraline wrote:
Because I can't UMD to save my life.

Bro, do you even UMD?

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