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I suggested playing a goblin in his upcoming campaign and he suggested a paladin. Now, with penalties to strength and to charisma and major penalties to stealth by armor check penalty, I'm at a bit of a loss when it comes to how to build something effective.
Help?
Also? The campaign's not likely to last past level 10, so the sooner this character becomes effective, the better. Core + APG only.
goblin + paladin = very bad idea
Tell your DM you want to play something else.
If not possible: have a look at the paladin archer.
Or try a Goblin Sorcerer who is Wildblooded (Sage) so you cast based off Int. That is my current character, he is fun.
1) Don't play a goblin
But I want to play a goblin.
2) Don't play a character class that gets gimped so badly by the race you want.
I'm asking if there's a workaround for the drawbacks of this race+class mismatch.
IMHO, Goblins make better rangers (finess build), rogues, ninjas & alchemists.
I'm aware of that. But I want to investigate how a goblin paladin would work out before bucking my DM's suggestion.
The charisma hit hurts, but the dex might make for a pretty strong build of an archer paladin, if you're set on making the Goblin Paladin thing work.
Divine Hunter: a good idea for this race/class?
I would worry a lot about the background, as you can only have been adopted. Goblins kick dogs, slay horses and burn books.
But if you don't min/max, a ranged paladin could do the trick, wear leather armor, and a bow. You can live with a 14 Charisma and 12 Strength. The main question you have to ask yourself is "do I mind not being as good at what I do than I could be?".
It will be hard to play your usual sword and board paladin.
Also a lot of people don't want to to lay your hand on them. Pack a lot of soap.
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I'd have to look it up again, but it seems like it could work out nicely.
Looking at this from a flavor standpoint primarily, there's a lot of fun to be had with this concept. I agree that focusing on ranged attacks might play to your strengths more, and there are some very gobliny options to take there. Also, combining that with a wolf mount? Hotness. That also takes some of the edge off on needing heavier armor.
Besides, the range will give you plenty of time to shout crude insults before they can close with you. From a goblin perspective, this is at least as important as hitting them.
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I would worry a lot about the background, as you can only have been adopted. Goblins kick dogs, slay horses and burn books.
The Goblin was adopted by a Paladin and reformed. I can't count the number of threads I've read about parties upset at their Paladin for refusing to kill a surrendering Goblin. This is that Goblin.
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Hah...I actually wrote an app some time ago, for a sword-and-board goblin paladin. I dug it up, to place here for your enjoyment/interest/mockery.
Name : Sir Scurfy Barkface Blisterfoots the One-st. (But you can call him Scurf.)
Race : Goblin (Yep.)
Class : Paladin (...Yep.)
Tropes : Funny Foreigner, Team Pet with delusions of Chronic Hero Syndrome
The paladin stood tall, impeccably, still shining in his shiny armor despite the murk and mush around him. A slash of his blade through the brush and there was the path again – the dwarf beside him hefted his hammer and trotted ahead. A lean, wiry woman stepped softly behind with her bow in hand. To the edge of a broad pond, rung with a grove of thirsty willows, all digging their roots down into the reeds. “A good place to rest,” the paladin declares. The reeds snigger a bit, but the hungry heroes fail their listen check.
Hurk Licktoad, lurking in the reeds with a dozen other goblins, frowns. “Is we bean smartheads, here?”, he whispers.
One of the others – the boss, from the size of him – only shakes his head sadly. “Course we is; you knows moto. We be goblins – they be food.” He sighs; every goblin pup knows the motto.
Hurk eyes the heroes warily. “Food looks sharp...” he mutters.
Needless to say, this didn’t end well for the goblins. They lay in a mess of acid-blood and marsh, their fearful leader running away with an arrow in his bum – and Hurk, somehow still alive. He had jumped out with the others, but he hadn’t seen any good way to attack without, well, dying. When the ranger shot at him, he ran – tripped over a willow-root and hid behind it. As the melee died down (haha), the dwarf noticed him as well. Advancing on him, Hurk dashed behind the trunk. The dwarf pursued, and Hurk scrambled back around front – with an arrow nearly pinning his ears back. He yelped, then splashed back around the willow’s back – right into the dwarf! Ducking, Hurk accidentally tripped the dwarf up the water and roots, then tried to climb straight up the tree and hide in the boughs. The bark broke, though, and he fell on the dwarf just as another arrow whizzed by.
It was around this time that everyone in the vicinity, goblin included, noticed the paladin laughing. “Why that lucky little bugger! Desna laughs, surely – let the auspicious imp go!”
The woman shrugged, and the dwarf made a face, but they wandered away. Hurk, left alone and largely unharmed, sat amidst his fallen clanrades fairly stunned. Oh, not that they’d died – average goblin life expectancy is under twenty; it’s hardly a traumatic event anymore after the first few years. No, the stupefying aspect of this situation was that he’d lived. Hurk sat on a stump to ponder this, insofar as goblins can ponder.
He’d heard of Desna – some of the squishy healers shout her name before becoming goblin food. Other times, the traders they steal from talk about her. He’d seen her wellshrines at the crossroads...and, er, stolen the change from them. Well, she wasn’t using it. So he knew there was a goddess of travellers, and he knew that she wasn’t a goblin god...this being pretty much the point where his head hurt. Because, well...when did Lamashtu ever actually save goblins? It was a blasphemous thought, but an honest one. Lamashtu was many things – scary, predominantly – but she wasn’t very lucky.
An odd thought crept up on the goblin...that...well...service to Lamashtu kind of stinks. Yeth-hounds are awful, and harpies are mean, and there’s nightmares all the time, and – this one’s kind of the dealbreaker – goblins always seem to be dying.
This, by the way, is pretty much as deep as goblin pondering goes.
With one grunt, he decided then and there to convert. There was an image in his head of that paladin and his shiny shield, all...alive. And laughing. Not like Lamashtu’s laugh at all. Hurk grunted, and nodded to himself, and decided that he would be a shiny paladin, too. The only thing he needed, obviously, was a shield. Casting about, he spotted the broken willow-bark – perfect!
...
Not very long later, he had a somewhat mossy willow-bark shield and a few bits of metal armor tied together, mostly looted from the dead goblins. Looking into a small clear patch of lake, he grinned toothily. Honestly, there isn’t any other way for goblins to grin.
It was right about this time when the boss came back, probably intending to loot the corpses himself. “Heyyou! How you live?”
He jabs a fat finger at Hurk, who puffs up his chest all proud behind his new shield. “Desna save me! She nice god – Lamashtu stink!” He laughs the slightly shrill laugh of the recently heretical.
The boss-goblin’s hand whips out to whack him, but it hits the barky shield. Hurk grins again. Toothily. The bigger goblin growls. “You run away, dint you – hair-tick!”
Hurk shakes his head. “No way – was Desna! Sides, you ran, bossypants!”
“Course! I leader. Gots to run way, find more goblins to boss.” He snorts, pokes his thumb at his chest, then sticks his tongue out. There’s a moment – common amongst goblinkind – wherein one combatant may pause to think up a good insult. It’s easy to tell, by the scrunch of his face, and only courteous that his opponent wait for the insult to arrive. ... “You scurfy barkface!”
Now, Hurk had been having a small dilemma. Being a heretic meant he wasn’t a Licktoad anymore. Not being a Licktoad anymore meant he didn’t have a name. So just at this moment, his face brightened considerably. “Ooh, that good name, like it! Me take name!”
The boss-goblin paused. Something in that transaction didn’t go as planned, only he couldn’t quite see where. Giving up, he focused on that last point. “Hey! Is good name – gimme name back!”
“Nuh uh! Took it!” Scurfy danced back from another whack, then stuck his tongue out. “Pbbth!”
The bossy goblin stamped up and down. “Gimme name back, gimme name! Rargh!” Drawing his dogslicer, he pointed it at Scurfy. “You not Licktoad now, you not goblin – you be food!”
Scurfy hefted his willowbark shield. “Fine. You wants Barkface? I give you barkface!”
And that’s the story of how Scurfy Barkface learned to smite evil.
The Goblin was adopted by a Paladin and reformed. I can't count the number of threads I've read about parties upset at their Paladin for refusing to kill a surrendering Goblin. This is that Goblin.
Speaking of paladins sparing goblins, I ran across this in my current campaign. The paladin player stabilized and healed up a goblin after taking it(and the people giving it orders) down. He figured that the goblin was being forced to fight by the evil warlock guy, since the goblins in the area had never been a real problem.
I responded by making the goblin try to emulate the paladin. He's now a "goblin shinyman"(a CG cavalier of the shield, because "shinymen protect the little guys"), and is quite probably my players' favorite NPC.
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Hah...I actually wrote an app some time ago, for a sword-and-board goblin paladin. I dug it up, to place here for your enjoyment/interest/mockery.
** spoiler omitted **...
WOW, I really loved that!! Definitely makes the idea of a Goblin Paladin sound like a very fun character to play, if played right!!! Especially since you could easily have a very skewed point of view, making some of the restrictions a bit more lenient, if the GM was cool with it.
I wouldn't go archer; Thats for min maxers. I would go traditional sword/ board and suck the penalties. I may go with weapon finesse at some point, but the idea here would be to play the character, not the game.
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I love the concept, but to make it work will be a little difficult as you're a little feat starved to take advantage of goblin awesomeness.
If you don't mind the level loss, try pumping in 2 levels of fighter.
1st level - Roll with it (Goblin Specific Feat) - You avoid damage to get sent flying instead. Entertaining and useful ;)
Fighter(Exotic Weapon - Elven Curveblade or other high die weapon with finesse.
Fighter 2 Weapon finesse.
Pal 1 (3rd level) If you chose a 2 handed weapon go for power attack, otherwise pirana strike.
By 5th leve seek an agile version of your finesse weapon. Let the fun in begin!
Traits - Goblin fool hardiness, - +1 to hit if you have no adjacent allies, & Strength of the Barghest!
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I wouldn't go archer; Thats for min maxers. I would go traditional sword/ board and suck the penalties. I may go with weapon finesse at some point, but the idea here would be to play the character, not the game.
I don't think you can call ANY goblin paladin a min maxer build.
I've always thought of goblins as more likely to be cowardly archers from the darkness whenever possible. So I think an archer build would be completely appropriate.
I had a similar situation with my DM. I'm not sure where he found it but there was an alternate set of stats for the goblin. -2wis + 2cha was involved (for a net +0 cha). The fluff was that the gobby was more insane, and therefore more popular, which does not fit your characters at all. However I could see easy was to re-fluff it. After that stick to range or finesse and you got a pretty solid paladin.
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Look to 3PP, Boggles are nice (A goblin with a boost to Int) or look at a High Goblin (additional free boost to Wis).
Go with no armor, there's a feat that doubles your dex to AC, just go for a 22 Dex. There's several viable ways to play sans-armor. Play to the races strengths, hide and such, and just know the line you're walking. Paladin's have to be good, but they don't have to be dumb so just play smart and use some combat feinting and such.
I don't think the CHA hit is a big deal (I've never enjoyed the CHA related abilities of a pally much anyway) and the whole concept is flavour country, so just go with it. I would only avoid it if your table power-games and you're afraid of falling behind the curve.
there was an alternate set of stats for the goblin. -2wis + 2cha was involved (for a net +0 cha).
Think harder. I want to know where this is...
I wouldn't go archer; Thats for min maxers. I would go traditional sword/ board and suck the penalties. I may go with weapon finesse at some point, but the idea here would be to play the character, not the game.
Paladin archers are not minmaxing. Yeah it's powerful, but not every powerful build equals min-max or cheese.
Sorry, but taking a race that has +4 dex to make your archer is min/maxing. The point of playing a goblin is that goblins are suck. Embrace the suck.
otherwise go for another class that can totally take advantage of the race, such as gunslinger or ranger.
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If you look at my page, I'm that paladin. I've been playing around with the idea of a Goblin melee Paladin ever since last August when Goblins of Golarion came out.
If you can, take a trait or dip into a class that has Acrobatics as a class skill, upon further reflection I recommend Monk, you will understand after I finish my recommendation.
Then take this feat:
Roll with it (Combat)
Spoiler:I recommended a dip into Monk for Acrobatics because you will also get Improved Unarmed Strike & it will set you up to take Monkey Style at 5th level (Although you will still need to meet the other pre-reqs for that), which allows you to stand from prone w-out provoking AoO's.You know how to take a hit, even if your reaction sends you bouncing and flying out of battle while shrieking at the top of your lungs.
Prerequisite: Goblin, Acrobatics 1 rank.
Benefit: If you are struck by a melee weapon you can try to convert some or all of that damage into movement that sends you off in an uncontrolled bouncing roll. To do so, you must make an Acrobatics check (DC = 5 + the damage dealt from the attack) as an immediate action. If you succeed in this check, you take no damage from the actual attack but instead convert that damage into movement with each point equating to 1 foot of movement. For example, if you would have taken 6 points of damage, you would convert that into 6 feet of movement. You immediately move in a straight line in a direction of your choice this number of feet (rounded up to the nearest five-foot-square), halting if you reach a distance equal to your actual speed. If this movement would make you strike an object or creature of your size or larger, the movement immediately ends, you take 1d4 points of damage, and fall prone in that square. This involuntary movement provokes attacks of opportunity normally if you move through threatened squares, but does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature that struck you in the first place.
You are staggered for one round after you attempt to use this feat, whether or not you succeed.
On further consideration, you may not want to take Weapon Finesse as you will probably wind up going for Vital Strike as you will be doing a lot of running around with this build. On the other hand the looks on everyone's faces when it works will be priceless.
I say go for it. Embrace it. I took this on as a bit of a project but there are two directions I would recomend. 14, 12, 14, 9, 8, 14 Not much to write home about but I would not say its hopeless. How bout this, 12, 18, 12, 10, 8, 14 this is going to be pretty good as an archer or a finess fighter. Make it a paladin of Sarenre and have fun with the dervish dance feat (or an agile weapon). This I think would be a really fun to do. Lots of folks are against small marshal classes but I think this would be really fun.
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Sorry, but taking a race that has +4 dex to make your archer is min/maxing. The point of playing a goblin is that goblins are suck. Embrace the suck.
No, the point of playing this character are the themes of nature vs. nurture, redemption, and the importance a sense of humor. Also, I wish to contribute in combat so that I don't get the characters of other PCs killed. It's my responsibility to bring a competently built goblin Paladin to the table who is also fun to play.
Thanks, everyone! This has really helped!
It seems like the goblin paladin archer has a lot of votes. But it seems like taking the Divine Hunter archetype loses me the ability to bond with a size medium mount. Is it worth the trade in this case? Or is it better to be a straight Archer Paladin instead?
How about the Goblin Paladin Lancer? Is the medium sized wolf mount worth giving up the holy weapon bond? Can I be a switch hitter with archery and lance?
Agile weapons and Dervish Dance are almost certainly out: core + APG, only.
Well the second array I put up could get you into power attack by level 4.
I don't like divine hunter, I'd go straight paladin. You will have to devote all of your feats to archery for a very long time though, so be prepared.
How about the Goblin Paladin Lancer? Is the medium sized wolf mount worth giving up the holy weapon bond? Can I be a switch hitter with archery and lance?
You can buy a riding dog at low levels. You could have a decent Handle Animal and Ride skills with paladin. I think that Roll with it feat is pretty awesome, so that will take away your 1st level feat and trait to get your acrobatics. So 3rd level for Power Attack if you have the strength or Quick Draw for the switch hitting. Now you're 4th level and haven't taken an archery feat!
Maybe you want to decide whether you want to single class paladin or not. If yes, you will be feat poor compared to switching to fighter or ranger. Look at the paladin guides for their archery and lancer recommendations.
cheers
@Jubal: If Core & APG are the only resources allowed, then Roll with it is also right out, it comes out of Goblins of Golarion. Also, unless the GM re-skins the mount, I don't see even a goblin Paladin using a riding dog. On the other hand Goblin Dogs aren't mechanically much of an improvement over a Riding Dog as far as I can see.
meh. Paladin is a fair departure from goblin stereotype, so why not riding dog? Riding dogs (RD) can be bought with starting gold without rules changes, as opposed to waiting for an animal companion. And RD have trip, which is mighty nice for a lancer... not so much for an archer.
If you are going to do it, go all out.
Reach weapon combat reflexes and roll with it.
You power attack everything. Something hits you and you go flying and you aoo them as they run back at you.
I've always loved the idea of a goblin lancer paladin using a goblin dog as a mount. not optimal at all, but fun as hell.
We had a 'reformed' goblin in our Rise of the Runelords campaign, but he was a Brawler (Fighter archetype) with a MoMS dip. He was utterly devastating in combat.
I can shoot you the build if interested - but if you're going to go Paladin then Divine Hunter seems the best bet.
One of my best friends plays a goblin paladin; he absolutely adores the character.
The ability score penalties can be harsh, but there are workarounds. Here are some tips:
1) Ask your GM if you can multiclass swashbuckler (see the Advanced Class Guide playtest). Not only would you have a hilariously awesome character, but you can put that massive +4 Dexterity bonus to work with Swashbuckler's Finesse. If you go finesse, the Strength penalty doesn't hurt you nearly as much; you'll only have to contend with a –2 penalty in one of your stats.
2) Consider going Warrior of the Shinning Light. Yes, the abilities you gain are nowhere near as powerful as paladin spellcasting. That said, Warrior of the Shining Light removes one of the major downsides of having a low Charisma; the impact it has on your paladin spellcasting! Gaining an extra use of Lay on Hands from Warrior of Shinning Light will make up for the 1 use you lost for having a –2 to Charisma and the powers you do gain are pretty cool.
I would end up making a build based off of Swashbuckler 5 / Warrior of the Shinning Light 15. You're in swashbuckler just long enough to grab a bonus feat, a +1 to hit and damage, precise strike (another +5 damage), and Improved Critical with your one-handed piercing weapon. From there, you go paladin and add Charisma to everything and become a Smite Evil monster. It would probably be fairly viable; use a buckler, grab a +1 to your AC through nimble, wear light armor, and have a massive Dexterity bonus thanks to your goblin racials. Light armor wouldn't negatively impact your ability to Stealth (goblins get a base of +12 thanks to size and racial bonuses) and you've have monstrous saving throws.
Sounds like a pretty awesome character, as long as you don't mind using the Playtest.
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I suggested playing a goblin in his upcoming campaign and he suggested a paladin. Now, with penalties to strength and to charisma and major penalties to stealth by armor check penalty,
Oh that's not a problem at all, because you won't be strapping on anything with an armor-check penalty.
This l'il squirt will be all DEX with the rest in CHA.
STR-10 (20pt goblin w/15,14,12,12,12,12 array)
DEX+18
CON:12
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA-13 (all bumps)
(In a halfling "chaladin" we'd dump WIS to upgrade a pair of 12s to 14s, but the goblin is effectively -3 will saves versus halfling due to no racial saves bonus and the CHA differential vis-a-vis Divine Grace at pally 2nd.)
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, Piranha Strike, EWP:repeating crossbow, TWF.
Two levels of rogue make a good multiclass.
Hah...I actually wrote an app some time ago, for a sword-and-board goblin paladin. I dug it up, to place here for your enjoyment/interest/mockery.
** spoiler omitted **...
Had to necro this thread just to say I still like scurfy barkface and I am using scurfy for a homebrew he is now a goblin king with his new and improved bark shield
The obvious answer would be to take the Virtuous Bravo archetype, which lets a goblin paladin depend on dexterity and light armor rather than the traditional heavy armor.
Of course, this archetype was published about five years after this thread was started.
Meh... a 20pt buy can get a Goblin a 15 Strength, a 12 Dex, 14 Con, and 14 Wisdom to start... Tortured Crusader could work with that. Archetype also came out after this thread, though.
Goblin Paladin is fun one to try get right. Especially single classed. Might have to try an archer like everyone said to.
I can make a Goblin Barbarian that can't communicate very well or read at all, flies into a rage when anyone uses big words or writes, but at least contributes by handing out Teamwork feats and generally providing decent battlefield control and flanking with a reach weapon.
This sucks, because I like Goblins, I should have something better for this. I don't like Paladins much, but I will be back...
Could always go oversized goblin
Oversized Goblins
Source Monster Codex pg. 104
A few goblins attain a much larger size than their kin. No one is exactly sure why they grow to be giants among their kind, but it’s probably due to a combination of luck, diet, and constant access to food. These goblins are monsters among their own kind, not just in height, but also in girth and in strength. If not cast out for eating all of the tribe’s food, oversized goblins often become the bosses of their tribes, and the most powerful of them become chiefs.
Oversized goblins are Medium size, and grow to 4 to 5 feet tall. They tend to be particularly obese, weighing between 225 and 275 pounds. Instead of the normal racial ability score modifiers for goblins, oversized goblins gain a +2 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Dexterity, and a –2 penalty to Charisma.
The obvious answer would be to take the Virtuous Bravo archetype, which lets a goblin paladin depend on dexterity and light armor rather than the traditional heavy armor.
Of course, this archetype was published about five years after this thread was started.
And PF 2E even later than that. But at least 2E allows un-gimped goblin champions. :)