"elemental" and "elemental burst" weapon enchantment

[kagenotora]

hello guys, i was reading the "Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once." thread and it made me take a second look at "elemental" and "elemental burst" weapon enchantment such as:

Quote:

Flaming: Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire that deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given.

Moderate evocation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Price +1 bonus.

Flaming Burst: A flaming burst weapon functions as a flaming weapon that also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit. The fire does not harm the wielder. In addition to the extra fire damage from the flaming ability (see above), a flaming burst weapon deals an extra 1d10 points of fire damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is ×3, add an extra 2d10 points of fire damage instead, and if the multiplier is ×4, add an extra 3d10 points of fire damage.

Even if the flaming ability is not active, the weapon still deals its extra fire damage on a successful critical hit.

Strong evocation; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Price +2 bonus.

and it made me wonder since one can have a "+1 flaming shocking" weapon and have both flaming and shocking active at the same time, wouldn't one be able to have a "+1 flaming flaming burst" weapon and have both flaming and flaming burst active at the same time?

thanks for your time

[pobbes]

No, it's redundant. Flaming burst is the flaming special quality just with burst. It would be easier to think that there is a burst special quality that lets your elemental qualities do more damage on a critical hit than to think that flaming and flaming burst are two different qualities.

[Adamantine Dragon]

pobbes wrote:

No, it's redundant. Flaming burst is the flaming special quality just with burst. It would be easier to think that there is a burst special quality that lets your elemental qualities do more damage on a critical hit than to think that flaming and flaming burst are two different qualities.

This is how I would rule too. However, in a separate thread about improving enhancements on magic weapons, I argued that you should be able to upgrade a "flaming" weapon to a "flaming burst" weapon and several people vehemently argued that you can't do that since they are listed as separate enchantments in the rule book.

I would say that logic would compel me to say that if you believe they are separate enchantments for the purpose of upgrading magic items, then they should be separate enchantments and stack if both are on the same weapon.

[kagenotora]

pobbes wrote:

No, it's redundant. Flaming burst is the flaming special quality just with burst. It would be easier to think that there is a burst special quality that lets your elemental qualities do more damage on a critical hit than to think that flaming and flaming burst are two different qualities.

that was my first take too but earlier i started to wonder about it since the flaming burst text says "A flaming burst weapon functions as a flaming weapon that also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit." and not "A flaming burst weapon is a flaming weapon that also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit."

that plus the fact that's the flaming burst text doesn't say that you can't have both on your weapon and the precedent on counter intuitive weapon enchantment stacking (icy flaming weapon)

well i fully admit that this one is highly counter intuitive and it may be sleep deprivation that make me over-think things

edit :

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

pobbes wrote:

No, it's redundant. Flaming burst is the flaming special quality just with burst. It would be easier to think that there is a burst special quality that lets your elemental qualities do more damage on a critical hit than to think that flaming and flaming burst are two different qualities.

This is how I would rule too. However, in a separate thread about improving enhancements on magic weapons, I argued that you should be able to upgrade a "flaming" weapon to a "flaming burst" weapon and several people vehemently argued that you can't do that since they are listed as separate enchantments in the rule book.

I would say that logic would compel me to say that if you believe they are separate enchantments for the purpose of upgrading magic items, then they should be separate enchantments and stack if both are on the same weapon.

that's exactly the psychological problem I'm having as i took used the upgrade one into an other rule in my game either as a GM or player

[pobbes]

Well, you could always just go with the ask your GM situation... but my opinion is decidedly skewed by the 3.x Magic Item Compendium which builds enchantments directly as I earlier described. The burst enchantment was simply an upgrade to an existing elemental enchantment. I believe they called them synergy enhancements or something of the sort.

[Bobson]

They're listed as two separate enchants, so you can have a flaming flaming burst weapon just as easily as you can have a shocking flaming burst weapon.

That being said, upgrading from flaming to flaming burst for a +1 increase makes a lot of sense.

[BigChuck]

I completely agree that flaming burst is an upgrade of flaming, and thus shouldn't stack.

HOWEVER

If they can upgrade it once, why not twice? Why not work it out with GM what it would take to upgrade the weapon another time with flaming?