Faith in the River Kingdoms


Pathfinder Online

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Part of the established Pathfinder lore is the fact that deities exist. A whole lot of them, in fact. And they do intervene in the world. The question is, how do we want that to be done in PFO? Obviously, clerics should get their spells, but beyond that, how should the gods of pathfinder interact with the world?

I would personally like to see small bonuses to a town depending on what deity they choose to revere, and based on donations to the church. For example, a town could choose to worship Abadar (law, trade, merchants, travel) who is also the god of the town watch. This town could have up to a 10% boost in efficency of its town guard. A town could also have a secondary deity, with a cap of 5% to something else.

These bonuses would have a minimum level, as long as you have a temple. The more people donate to the temple (cash sink), the more the benefit rises. Please note, the percentages were not hard numbers, but merely easy ones to use.

So, lets discuss the gods and their place in world!

Goblin Squad Member

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Part of the established Pathfinder lore is the fact that deities exist. A whole lot of them, in fact. And they do intervene in the world. The question is, how do we want that to be done in PFO? Obviously, clerics should get their spells, but beyond that, how should the gods of pathfinder interact with the world?

I would personally like to see small bonuses to a town depending on what deity they choose to revere, and based on donations to the church. For example, a town could choose to worship Abadar (law, trade, merchants, travel) who is also the god of the town watch. This town could have up to a 10% boost in efficency of its town guard. A town could also have a secondary deity, with a cap of 5% to something else.

These bonuses would have a minimum level, as long as you have a temple. The more people donate to the temple (cash sink), the more the benefit rises. Please note, the percentages were not hard numbers, but merely easy ones to use.

So, lets discuss the gods and their place in world!

I would like to see places of worship for Calistria, or the option to build said places of worship. Maybe even a option to find staff for them. ^_^

What?! Don't you dare judge me.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Waruko wrote:


I would like to see places of worship for Calistria, or the option to build said places of worship. Maybe even a option to find staff for them. ^_^

What?! Don't you dare judge me.

As long as such places of "worship" are properly regulated and legal in the town they are established in, I have no objections to such a facility, even if I choose to not avail myself of their "services".

Goblin Squad Member

I'll just leave this here.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Skwiziks wrote:
I'll just leave this here.

While that is a good thread, I'm looking for broader effects. For example, should a player get a small bonus towards things for worshiping a deity, even if not a cleric?

I'd like to see the gods do more than just hand out a blessing from a temple. I'm wondering what that would look like.

Goblin Squad Member

A small bonus for exclusively worshiping a particular deity could work. Maybe a series of scripted adventures based around inspiration from a particular deity?

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Skwiziks wrote:
A small bonus for exclusively worshiping a particular deity could work. Maybe a series of scripted adventures based around inspiration from a particular deity?

Scripted could be interesting...but could we find a way to make in less scripted? I want to see faith be something organic, something that is a vibrant part of the game. I want clerics to be more than a buff bot with a few handy spells like hold person, I want them to be the voice of the gods made manifest. I want character to have reason to not piss of Pharasma. I don't want to have the game become all about the various gods...one thing to consider is, its the gods' world, we just live in it.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Waruko wrote:

I would like to see places of worship for Calistria, or the option to build said places of worship. Maybe even a option to find staff for them. ^_^

What?! Don't you dare judge me.

Who's judging? I think you're spot on right. Most of the gods' churches should be competing to draw in worshipers as the game world is built, and struggling to spread your faith should be a big part of the game.

For Calistria, that means making mortals accept their "blood and flesh" side. Building up a church to Calistria should feel a lot different than doing so for Iomedae or Asmodeus. It should focus on passion, love, jealousy, and sexuality, and as long as they handle it with maturity (as they usually do), hooray!

I'd go so far as adding in "working girls unions" and the like, though I do wonder if that's just a lightning rod for bringing down the wrath of the Moral Guardians.

I would hasten to add though that those churches which feel like secret cult mystery religions should stay secret cult mystery religions, though they should still exist.

And there I do have to ask what Skwiziks would suggest - pointing at his earlier thread - be done with faiths who don't go around building massive places of worship, but instead lurk in the fringes of the world?

Edit: threat (typo) --> thread

Goblin Squad Member

I don't think a buff should be applied at the player level just for walking in the door and saying "hey ya thanks i pray for Iomedae whoopitydoo kkbuffplz". It would make more sense to have a temple provide buffs for a cost, either in straight gold or some "rare" materiels. In fact, the more i think on it, these donations probably should be some sort of manufactured goods, opening another avenue for crafting and so on. And of course, themed for each god. Sandalwood and Sage for Sarenrae, bloodwine and broken blades for Rovagug, Salve of Lightninbugs for Gozreh... etc etc. Then you could have different more potent buffs based on the scarcity of the items procured for the donation. This could even have great PvE context. I'd say at best however the buffs shouldn't last longer than an hour, although in the best circumstances persistence through death would be good.

As to the broader context of Player run towns with temples, I could see a similar system wrought large, so perhaps a town dedicated to Torag would have a few days worth of buffs to some sort of production when a sizable donation of precious ores, or something as such.

Details notwithstanding, I feel like this is an opportunity to drive commerce rather than just a passive background bonus. This might also be coupled with some sort of reputation system, for added bonuses, providing additional factional based conflicts. Whatever the specifics are, the real key is to keep the balance tight so the costs are commiserate with the bonuses, but that the bonuses aren't so great as to force every player or Chartered Company into these religious factions.

Goblin Squad Member

Following a deity should grant a deity specific bonus to skills or abilities.

Bonuses granted to you by deities should be variable based upon something like the size of the weekly global donation to that deity. Or, the number of followers who were active in the last week in the "world"...or even just the number of missions the followers of the diety have completed in the last week, etc...

Oh...or maybe even the number of shrines that exist to the deity...and give players the ability to build shrines.

REVISION: I just realized the idea of building shrines as I just suggested will result in even allied deities destroying each others shrines...so, I think shrines to a deity increase the global divinity bonus based upon alignment. So any shrine to a "good" deity raises the divinity bonus for any good faith, likewise for evil, lawful, and chaotic...

Shrines to neutral deities evenly spread the bonus across all alignments one step away. This provides a much lower bonus to all and represents either that the neutral deities do not care about alignment, or they strive for balance.

Some shrines to each deity will exist in the NPC cities, protecting them and insuring that every alignment always gets at least a minimum amount of love...no matter what happens in the PC world.

ILLUSTRATION: A shrine to Asmodeus (LE) will increase the bonus given to both evil and lawful characters (including chaotic evil and lawful good).

A shrine to Abadar (LN) would increase the bonus given to lawful characters, and to a much lesser degree, evenly to any non-chaotic (which is two steps away).

A Shrine to Sivanah (N) would slightly increase all alignments.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

I really like the idea of making donations need some sort of item, especially post crafter items. I'd like to see towns who keep a decent supply keep some sort of buff always active, a reason for people to want to be there. A reason to keep the gods happy.

Perhaps a passive buff would be something you could maintain, but it would be something you could temporairaly crank up to, say, double it for a day or two, but then it is worn off for a bit.

For example, a 5% static buff for farming output, but if you tossed a bunch of really rare and sacred incense on the fire at the temple of Erastil, it could be turned into a 10% buff for two days, but then you don't get any sort of buff from erastil for 2 days afterwards.

Basically, it makes folks weigh the costs and benefits, keep the buff regular, or double it for a bit.

Goblin Squad Member

I really see nothing wrong with "aligned" deities in conflict. Particularly in the case of evil vs evil, but even in the case of nominally good deities. From my perspective, its not the Gods that are warring, its the fallible mortal administrators of their will on Golarion. I'm even ok with conflicts within each religion, but that's probably just me.

And I'd also like to restate, just choosing a god and getting some bump in stats isn't a good way to go about supporting diversity. If a god provides a significant and tangible combat bonus, you can bet efficacy will beat out flavor eventually. Bonuses should be limited and cost something.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Gruffling wrote:


And I'd also like to restate, just choosing a god and getting some bump in stats isn't a good way to go about supporting diversity. If a god provides a significant and tangible combat bonus, you can bet efficacy will beat out flavor eventually. Bonuses should be limited and cost something.

Oh, I want personal buffs to be small and not terribly noticable in the grand scheme of things. Something that might tip the scales towards a patron of a god, assuming everything else is equal.

The larger buffs, I'd like to be city (or hex) wide, but need the resources of the entire town to keep up. It would take some sacrifice, but should potentially be worth it.

Goblin Squad Member

A agree, charter, towns, and kingdoms with a specific patron deity should also get some bonus, but what is best for the individual should not also be best for the collective groups. For instance, Green gods might give great bonuses to healing for individuals and farming for collectives, but they might be detrimental to production and mining. This means the devs no longer have to balance the bonus for each deity with other deities...they only have to balance the bonuses with drawbacks.

But, I do not think it should be possible for a collective (charter, town, city, kingdom) to hold a deity as their collective patron without that majority of members within that collective actively worshipping the deity.

So, for example, a group of individuals who worship Rovagug in order to get a PvP bonus, cannot set Gozreh as their town patron to get some sort of farming bonus...without at least a majority converting.

Goblin Squad Member

@Gruffling, I agree, and many still would. A LE shrine would only give half the potential bonus to a CE, a LG shrine would only give half the potential bonus to a CG. So, any one who want to maximize their bonus would still want to destroy others shrines and replace them...

In my opinion, the type of people who attract good would make them less likely to fight each other, they would be happy sharing a half bonus...and they type who are attracted to evil would result in them fighting each other to maximize their bonuses...which is exactly the dynamic we want.

And totally agree bonuses should be small...but everything else equal, every bonus helps.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Forencith wrote:

A agree, charter, towns, and kingdoms with a specific patron deity should also get some bonus, but what is best for the individual should not also be best for the collective groups. For instance, Green gods might give great bonuses to healing for individuals and farming for collectives, but they might be detrimental to production and mining. This means the devs no longer have to balance the bonus for each deity with other deities...they only have to balance the bonuses with drawbacks.

But, I do not think it should be possible for a collective (charter, town, city, kingdom) to hold a deity as their collective patron without that majority of members within that collective actively worshipping the deity.

So, for example, a group of individuals who worship Rovagug in order to get a PvP bonus, cannot set Gozreh as their town patron to get some sort of farming bonus...without at least a majority converting.

That is a good way to balance things, certainly! And I was thinking that a town could get a "primary" buff and a "secondary" buff. The secondary its at only 50% power of a primary buff, but costs 75%. So, those worshipers of Gozreh could pull off a smaller buff...but if they want to take the #1 spot, they'll need to find some way to surpass the worshipers of Rovagug.

Goblin Squad Member

I was thinking a shrine would be highly specialized, and not aligned so much as devoted to a specific God. Only one buff at a time, as the gods are fickle. Your example of LE shrine, and Mine would be an Asmodeus devotional. The key difference is you could pray/donate to a Gozreh shrine one day, and then (provided the proper requirements met, reputation, etc) the next dialing into Erastil for a nice bump, or Shelyn, or Rovagug. In this way there's a whole avenue of flexibility, and a nice goal oriented structure that allows for a lot of replay. Granted this type of thing can end up as a nasty time sink, but if done well, that time sink feels worthwhile.

Goblin Squad Member

If I were a LG god, I would be pissed if my followers starting seeking grace from Rovagug to get a buff in battle...like divine retribution pissed.

Although, historical precedence does support people praying to different gods based upon need...but I don't think they ever prayed to gods that were the antithesis and enemy of their personal patrons.

Goblin Squad Member

I think there should be some significant devotion over time to their deity of choice before receiving any actual buffs.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
I think there should be some significant devotion over time to their deity of choice before receiving any actual buffs.

Agreed, but how would that look in the game?

What time frame are we looking at?

When I thought of the "town deity", I was thinking it would take a good couple of weeks after you get the temple built before you could start getting a buff.

Goblin Squad Member

Alexander_Damocles wrote:
... how would that look in the game?

I would like to see it Skill-based. Basically a Piety skill for a specific deity.

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