Sorcerer Dip, Eldritch Heritage, and Sylvan Bloodline


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18 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.

I've been reading a lot about Eldritch Heritage and the Sylvan bloodline and every other way to get an animal companion I could find; I want to make a rogue with an animal companion >.>

Anyway, from what I'm reading the general consensus seems to be that you can't use Eldritch Heritage for Sylvan since it's level 1 power also counts as it's arcana, and you don't get the arcana from the feat. (Note, I haven't found any dev responses; it says it "replaces" the power but "counts" as the arcana, the difference and how this would interact with Eldritch Heritage isn't entirely clear). Furthermore, there is nothing that indicates you can take Wildblooded archetype bloodlines with Eldritch Heritage.

I'm thinking I might try to convince my DM to let me take Eldritch Heritage with the Sylvan bloodline if I take a 1 level dip into sorcerer to get that bloodline anyway (and it's arcana), simply using Eldritch Heritage to allow the bloodline power (animal companion) to continue to gain strength as I level up as a rogue. This might bypass the issue of gaining an arcana from a feat, since I'll already have the arcana.

So, is this a legitimate way to work using Eldritch Heritage to gain an animal companion that grows with my total level (-5) rather than any particular class level? Or, more generally: How does Eldritch Heritage interact on a character who already has the same bloodline chosen from normal sorcerer levels?

Edit: People have answered the final question above, it is answered very clearly in the Eldritch Heritage feat. However, the exact rules on how Wildblooded bloodlines, Eldritch Heritage, and Sylvan Bloodline in particular interact are still unclear. Just thought I'd update the original post to reflect what has and hasn't been answered.


RAW it works. There has been no dev response on this (non-)issue therefor you would only have to convince your DM to follow RAW. If you want the companion to be survivable I'd also recommend taking Boon Companion.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Lune wrote:
RAW it works. There has been no dev response on this (non-)issue therefor you would only have to convince your DM to follow RAW. If you want the companion to be survivable I'd also recommend taking Boon Companion.

Where in the RAW does Eldritch Heritage allow you to take an archetype's bloodline power? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Strictest reading of RAW Eldritch Heritage for all wild blood lines is not possible.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Wildblooded Bloodlines are still Bloodlines. No PFS judge has ruled them otherwise if you suspect that a Bloodline is not Bloodline.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

What bbt said. Why would it not be allowed RAW? Nothing in the wording suggests that it wouldn't be. It would take a change in the wording or a ruling or errata from a dev to make it non-RAW.

Is it a balance issue that is of concern? 2 feats for an animal companion at -5 character level isn't very OP.


In other news, forumgoers start to argue that the rogue talent Weapon Training works with the gloves of dueling because "they're both Weapon training and there hasn't been dev clarification or errata saying that the gloves need to use the fighter's weapon training. "

Side note, the original author of eldritch heritage didn't know about the wildblooded archetypes when he turned it over.


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eldritch heritage wrote:

Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with the class skill of bloodline selected for this feat (see below), character level 3rd.

Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.

emphasis mine.

So RAW you can't take a bloodline with eldritch heritage that you already have.

Liberty's Edge

I don't believe using eldritch heritage to get a pet is RAW or RAI. That said, its not exactly going to break the rogue to have a pet, even a full druid level pet. RAW, however, you can get a full pet if you go up to cavalier 4 and take (some feat I can't remember the name of).

There are at least one or two ways in third party material to get animal companions if you can go that route.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Lune wrote:
RAW it works. There has been no dev response on this (non-)issue therefor you would only have to convince your DM to follow RAW. If you want the companion to be survivable I'd also recommend taking Boon Companion.

Agreed, as it's written you can take it because you gain the 1st level power, and in the Sylvan bloodline it states that the first-level power is an animal companion. It doesn't matter that it "counts as" the arcana also, it IS the 1st-level bloodline power.

That being said, there are those who will argue that you can't use any of the Wildblooded bloodlines with Eldritch Heritage because they were written up as an archetype for some godforsaken reason. I don't think this is valid, because they're no different than subdomains, which anyone with access to a domain can choose. If this is a home game, I think your DM should allow it no questions asked. If it's for PFS, you may run into trouble if you take that character to an event and the DM says "that's an archetype, not a bloodline", even though that's a stupid argument in my own opinion.

Again, as written, it works just fine.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Archetype Bloodlines are still Bloodlines.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Wildblooded Bloodlines are still Bloodlines. No PFS judge has ruled them otherwise if you suspect that a Bloodline is not Bloodline.

I see it this way: The bloodline involved is Fae. Sylvan is an archetype-modified version of that bloodline. Eldritch Heitage can get you the abilities of the Fae bloodline, but not the abilities as modified by the wildblooded archetype.

To me, using Eldritch heritage to gain wildblooded archetype abilities is not different than using it to gain "arcane bond"-but then replacing arcane bond with the "bomb" ability from the arcane bomber wizard archetype. Which is an argument so silly that is almost consitutes a straw man.

Two sentence version of argument: The wildblooded archetype bloodline modifications are not bloodlines in and of themselves. They are changed bloodlines that require the wildblooded archetype to access.

Liberty's Edge

ryric wrote:

I see it this way: The bloodline involved is Fae. Sylvan is an archetype-modified version of that bloodline. Eldritch Heitage can get you the abilities of the Fae bloodline, but not the abilities as modified by the wildblooded archetype.

To me, using Eldritch heritage to gain wildblooded archetype abilities is not different than using it to gain "arcane bond"-but then replacing arcane bond with the "bomb" ability from the arcane bomber wizard archetype. Which is an argument so silly that is almost consitutes a straw man.

Two sentence version of argument: The wildblooded archetype bloodline modifications are not bloodlines in and of themselves. They are changed bloodlines that require the wildblooded archetype to access.

Very well said and spot on.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

By this logic,

Premise : An archetype of a bloodline is not a bloodline.
Result : Archetypes do not count for feats.
General Restatement : Archetypes do not count as the base object.
General Result : Fighters with Archetypes do not count as fighters for purposes of feats that require levels in fighter, as the archetype means they are no longer Fighters.

Absurd conclusion reached.

Re-evaluate logic.

Logic confirmed.

Premise is false.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Archetype Bloodlines are still Bloodlines.

But they're not all the same.

The base Eldritch Heritage feat allows you to swap one power.

However the Sylan Animal Companion is a replacement for TWO, count them TWO bloodline abilities. To get that companion you need TWO Eldritch Heritage feats, the base one and the improved Heritage feat which lets you grab the higher arcana. The Sylvan substittuion runs very differently than the other ones.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

ryric wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Wildblooded Bloodlines are still Bloodlines. No PFS judge has ruled them otherwise if you suspect that a Bloodline is not Bloodline.

I see it this way: The bloodline involved is Fae. Sylvan is an archetype-modified version of that bloodline. Eldritch Heitage can get you the abilities of the Fae bloodline, but not the abilities as modified by the wildblooded archetype.

To me, using Eldritch heritage to gain wildblooded archetype abilities is not different than using it to gain "arcane bond"-but then replacing arcane bond with the "bomb" ability from the arcane bomber wizard archetype. Which is an argument so silly that is almost consitutes a straw man.

Two sentence version of argument: The wildblooded archetype bloodline modifications are not bloodlines in and of themselves. They are changed bloodlines that require the wildblooded archetype to access.

You know what? You're totally right. Your logic has swayed my opinion. The way the Wildblooded archetype is written, you choose a bloodline, and it modifies that bloodline to change some powers/arcana. Wildblooded is a sorcerer archetype, so you have to be a sorcerer to take it. This means Eldritch Heritage can't give you a wildblooded bloodline.

mdt wrote:


By this logic,

Premise : An archetype of a bloodline is not a bloodline.
Result : Archetypes do not count for feats.
General Restatement : Archetypes do not count as the base object.
General Result : Fighters with Archetypes do not count as fighters for purposes of feats that require levels in fighter, as the archetype means they are no longer Fighters.

Absurd conclusion reached.

Re-evaluate logic.

Logic confirmed.

Premise is false.

Actually, your argument doesn't work. The premise "An archetype of a bloodline is not a bloodline" is not what's being suggested. It's "The Wildblooded archetype modifies the sorcerer Bloodline feature to create a 'wildblooded bloodline'."

The Result of this statement is that the feat Eldritch Heritage can't choose a wildblooded bloodline because it's the result of a sorcerer archetype.


LazarX wrote:
However the Sylan Animal Companion is a replacement for TWO, count them TWO bloodline abilities. To get that companion you need TWO Eldritch Heritage feats, the base one and the improved Heritage feat which lets you grab the higher arcana. The Sylvan substittuion runs very differently than the other ones.

It is actually a swap for one Bloodline Power and one Bloodline Arcana, so Improved Eldritch Heritage wouldn't help here there even if you wanted it to (since nothing lets you take arcanas).

You still can't take Sylvan with Eldritch Heritage, though. You can't switch out for archetypes any more than a Wild Stalker Ranger could take Controlled Rage or an Urban Ranger could switch Trapfinding for Bravado's Blade. The Wildblooded bloodlines are explicitly placed in the archetypes section of the book, not the bloodlines section, making them incompatible with Eldritch Heritage.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
LazarX wrote:
However the Sylan Animal Companion is a replacement for TWO, count them TWO bloodline abilities. To get that companion you need TWO Eldritch Heritage feats, the base one and the improved Heritage feat which lets you grab the higher arcana. The Sylvan substittuion runs very differently than the other ones.

It is actually a swap for one Bloodline Power and one Bloodline Arcana, so Improved Eldritch Heritage wouldn't help here there even if you wanted it to (since nothing lets you take arcanas).

You still can't take Sylvan with Eldritch Heritage, though. You can't switch out for archetypes any more than a Wild Stalker Ranger could take Controlled Rage or an Urban Ranger could switch Trapfinding for Bravado's Blade. The Wildblooded bloodlines are explicitly placed in the archetypes section of the book, not the bloodlines section, making them incompatible with Eldritch Heritage.

You may very well be right. and I missed that detail.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

mdt wrote:

By this logic,

Premise : An archetype of a bloodline is not a bloodline.
Result : Archetypes do not count for feats.
General Restatement : Archetypes do not count as the base object.
General Result : Fighters with Archetypes do not count as fighters for purposes of feats that require levels in fighter, as the archetype means they are no longer Fighters.

Absurd conclusion reached.

Re-evaluate logic.

Logic confirmed.

Premise is false.

I would say your premise and initial conclusion are a misstatement of the point I'm trying to make. Here's my version:

Premise: An archetype of a bloodline is not itself a seperate bloodline.
Premise: Feats that grant class abilities can't grant archetype replacements of those abilities.
Conclusion: Eldritch Heritage can't grant wildblooded abilities - unless you are a wildblooded sorcerer taking the feat.
Specific example: A hypothetical feat that granted, say, weapon training 1, can't instead grant any of the myriad fighter archetype abilities that can replace weapon training.

The wildblooded bloodline is the original bloodline in the same way that a Skirmisher is a ranger. A Linnorm Wildblooded sorcerer should still qualify for Dragon Disciple, for example.


2 questions for consideration:

1. Does this mean that a sorcerer with the wildblooded archetype can only take wildblooded abilties with the eldritch heritage feat?

2. If answer to 1 is yes, then if a sorcerer with the wildblooded archetype takes eldritch heritage and chooses the fey bloodline, would the feat grant him the animal companion whilst removing his bloodline arcana (since he now *has* an arcana to be replaced)?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The point is moot.. if the Eldritch Heritage feat tree does not allow the swapping of Bloodline arcana, than the Sylvan bloodline can not be plugged into. because the Sylvan power involves swapping both a bloodline power and an arcana.


Page 70 of Ultimate Magic says:

Quote:
When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline (such as one from the Core Rulebook, the Advanced Player’s Guide, or this book), then select one of the following mutated bloodlines associated with that bloodline.

From this, I would say that the answer to 1) is "no." When you select Wildblooded, you are choosing one bloodline that is altered. That other bloodlines could also be altered by the archetype won't matter, because you did not select them.

On 2), I guess? Maybe? That is a really, really weird edge case. Possibly no, if you consider the power counting as the arcana to make it unacceptable (as you cannot select an arcana, which it counts as). You know, I'm going to stop thinking about it and go hide before we add "3) How does all this interact with Crossblooded?" I'd prefer if my brain didn't explode today.


To the OP if you are willing to dip sorcerer to get an AC. Dip druid, and you will get an AC.

Also have you consider just playing a ranger and call yourself a rogue? I mean mechanically speaking the ranger is in all ways better than the rogue, and many of their class skills overlap.

Rangers come with an AC.


Actually, just read the entry for sylvan. This line is interesting:

"This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch."

That is, the way the wording is written, this ability has the property of being both an arcana and a power. It is both fully an arcana AND fully a first level bloodline power (i.e. it is both A and B rather then being A+B), and thus fully capable of being counted as either in its own right.

This means that my first question becomes all the more pertinent. Again, the wording for wildblooded sorcerer is interesting, in that the alternative bloodline powers do not 'replace' a bloodline power (like, say, some of the powers of a tattooed sorcerer), but rather it seems that there is a list of mutated bloodlines that you can only select as your bloodline if you take the wildblooded archetype. However, it appears that they are still bloodlines in their own right.

"When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline (such as one from the Core Rulebook, the Advanced Player’s Guide, or this book), then select one of the following mutated bloodlines associated with that bloodline."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FiddlersGreen wrote:

Actually, just read the entry for sylvan. This line is interesting:

"This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch."

That is, the way the wording is written, this ability has the property of being both an arcana and a power. It is both fully an arcana AND fully a first level bloodline power (i.e. it is both A and B rather then being A+B), and thus fully capable of being counted as either in its own right.

This means that my first question becomes all the more pertinent. I'm going to have a second look at the exact wording for the eldritch heritage feat.

The power does not count as Either, it counts as both. You give up both the bloodline power and the arcana of the Fey bloodline to get the Sylvan animal companion. So as per the early poster, you simply can not snag it using Eldritch Heritage at all. The Sylvan Animal Companion power is an exception to the general sorcerer bloodline structure, so as a DM I'm quite prepared to rule that it's simply off limits to anyone but a sylvan sorcerer.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
cartmanbeck wrote:
Agreed, as it's written you can take it because you gain the 1st level power, and in the Sylvan bloodline it states that the first-level power is an animal companion. It doesn't matter that it "counts as" the arcana also, it IS the 1st-level bloodline power.

To be fully accurate it's the bloodline power AND a front loading of the bloodline arcana. It's not "just" the bloodline power.


LazarX wrote:
FiddlersGreen wrote:

Actually, just read the entry for sylvan. This line is interesting:

"This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch."

That is, the way the wording is written, this ability has the property of being both an arcana and a power. It is both fully an arcana AND fully a first level bloodline power (i.e. it is both A and B rather then being A+B), and thus fully capable of being counted as either in its own right.

This means that my first question becomes all the more pertinent. I'm going to have a second look at the exact wording for the eldritch heritage feat.

The power does not count as Either, it counts as both. You give up both the bloodline power and the arcana of the Fey bloodline to get the Sylvan animal companion. So as per the early poster, you simply can not snag it using Eldritch Heritage at all. The Sylvan Animal Companion power is an exception to the general sorcerer bloodline structure, so as a DM I'm quite prepared to rule that it's simply off limits to anyone but a sylvan sorcerer.

I think we both agree that it counts as 'both', but we mean it in different senses. I mean it counts as both as that it is both A and B, whilst you mean that it is A+B.

I would say that by RAW it seems that is is both A and B rather than A+B. Or more precisely, it is B, but it counts as A as well (hence being both fully A and fully B). Personally, I think it could have been better worded. Also, as a GM, I would be inclined to hourserule that it is a little too much to just gain via eldritch heritage (I'd probably houserule an extra feat cost, or just disallow it). But I'd be inclined to think of that as GM adjudication rather than strict RAW.


A simpler way to do this might be to take the leadership feat and ask your GM if you can get an awakened animal with class levels as a cohort. One feat instead of three (including boon companion), and mechanically viable as well.


Wow, thanks everyone for all the responses! I have read through a bunch of independent threads about this and it seems I really managed to pull the debate all together with my first post xD

@Gignere, dipping one level in druid would give me a level 1 AC, or level 5 with Boon Companion. The desire was to have an animal companion at character level-1 at the cost of a 1 level dip and 3 feats. Just settling for a ranger is probably the most legitimate solution to my problem but darnit I want to be a real rogue! =P

To me it seems that RAI Eldritch Heritage should be able to take wildblooded bloodlines, since they are basically subdomains for a sorcerer. It's seems just that the designers of the feat and of the archetype weren't taking each other into account. RAW it seems that Eldritch Heritage wouldn't work for wildblooded period, and even if it did Sylvan bloodline is more problematic, although it seems like 2 feats for an animal companion -5 isn't particularly overpowered.

A 4 level dip into Beast Rider and Horse Master might achieve the same thing, but I had high hopes of becoming a arcane trickster and that throws a bit of a wrench in those plans =P

Could we get people to mark my OP as FAQ? It really seems like something that ought to be settled by a dev..

Edit: @Osterik Leadership is a pretty good suggestion, although I'd prefer to have a legit animal companion instead... I will definitely keep that in mind as a alternate option.


I still don't understand what people are arguing about. Wildblooded bloodlines are still bloodlines. I don't even understand the arguement that a bloodline is not, in fact, a bloodline.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Side note: Clerics, Druids, and Inquisitors can all take subdomains, inquisitions, and terrain domains.
This means all of them can get an animal companion or familiar.
Clerics can get both at first level.

Two feats to get a weak animal companion?

Big whoop.


The only given means by which Wildblooded Bloodlines enter the game is via the Wildblooded Sorceror Archetype.
If you don't have that Archetype, they aren't valid per ***RAW***.
Alternate Domains have specific wording that they can be taken by pretty much anybody qualifying to take a Domain, they aren't Archetypes.
Yes, I don't see Bloodlines as functionally different than Domains, but they are WORDED differently, which matters when one asks a question about Rules as WRITTEN.

The only scenario where I can see using Eldritch Heritage to take Wildblooded Bloodlines is when you have levels in Wildblooded Sorceror already, and are taking additional Bloodlines. In that case it's arguable that you are in fact COMPELLED to take the Wildblooded modification (if one exists) of any Bloodline you select for Eldritch Heritage.

The idea to dip 1 level in Sorceror to gain Arcana, and then use Eldritch Heritage to scale the ability doesn't work because you are banned from using Eldritch Heritage for a Bloodline you already have... It's pretty clear that wording exists to bar exactly this sort of thing. That said, I would probably consider allowing it in a home game... I'd also probably consider allowing to take Wildblooded Bloodlines via Eldritch Heritage (without having Wildblooded Sorceror levels) although as mentioned, in the case of Sylvan, you probably need to take 2 of the Feats to gain both Bloodline Abilities that are replaced by the Wildblooded ability.


Quandary, that simply isn't true. They are bloodlines. You can select them with the Eldritch Heritage feat. By RAW, you can select them. That is how the feat is written.

Quote:

Eldritch Heritage

You are descended from a long line of sorcerers, and some portion of their power flows in your veins.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with the class skill of bloodline selected for this feat (see below), character level 3rd.

Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.

Bolding mine.

Are wildblooded bloodlines considered a bloodline? Yes.

Can you select that bloodline with Eldritch Heritage? Yes.

Whats the issue?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Whether or not you need to take the Wildblooded ARCHETYPE in order to use those Bloodlines.
If you don't, exactly what good is the Wildblooded Archetype?
I happen to think that they wouldn't print an Archetype that does nothing.

Just look at Ultimate Magic's Sorceror section. It starts with:
"In addition to new bloodlines, this section also includes the crossblooded and wildblooded archetypes."
There is a section called Bloodlines filled with new Bloodlines, then we have the Archetypes of Wildblooded/Crossblooded. If the new options of WIldblooded were 'just Bloodlines' then why weren't they listed next to the other Bloodlines? The only reason is if they AREN'T just bloodlines per se, but are Class Archetypes that modify the Bloodline Class Feature - exactly as they are presented per RAW.

The Archetype tells you what it does:

Quote:
When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline, then select one of the following mutated bloodlines associated with that bloodline. Use the normal bloodline's class skill, bonus spells, and bonus feats, and the mutated bloodline's bloodline arcana. Use the normal bloodline's bloodline powers, except when the mutated bloodline replaces one of those powers.

If you don't have that Archetype, you aren't applying the above text.

The 'mutated bloodlines' that are selected as a function of the Archetype are themselves presented along the lines of the below example:
Quote:

Anarchic

Your magical power taps into pure anarchy.

Associated Bloodline: Protean.

Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you fail a concentration check to cast a spell, a cantrip effect is created. Randomly determine one of your cantrips known (for example, if you know 6 cantrips, roll 1d6). There is a 50% chance this cantrip affects a target of your choice within 60 feet; otherwise it affects you.

Bloodline Powers: Raw magical energy lashes out when you destroy or negate hostile spells.

Wild Feedback (Su): At 3rd level, when you successfully dispel or counterspell an opponent's spell, the caster (if it is within 100 feet) takes 1d6 points of damage +1 per level of the spell affected. This bloodline power replaces protean resistances.

What does 'associated bloodline' mean outside of the context of the Wildblooded Class Archetype? Nothing. None of the 'mutated bloodlines' give you all of the information you need to use them as stand-on-their-own bloodlines, they don't have bonus spells for example.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, are you saying that a PC with the Amateur Gunslinger feat cannot select the Focused Aim deed?

This would follow the "same, but not the same" logic, used to deny the selection of the Sylvan Bloodline.


sorry, i want to stay on topic. i also don't like gunslingers, so don't know much about that stuff.
i'm only discussing RAW, not balance between vaguely equivalent class feature structures.
i would agree that it's easy to imagine wildblooded bloodline mutations being written as 'just' new bloodlines, or like sub-domains, but they weren't written up that way.

and honestly, the idea of a wildblooded sorceror taking an additional wildblooded mutant bloodline is itself not 100% clear per raw, since the archetype specifically says you only choose ONE mutant bloodline when the character is created... so plausibly mutant bloodlines can NEVER be taken by anybody via Eldritch Heritage (unless you are taking Eldritch Heritage at the same level as your first Wildblooded Sorceror level, which is a very corner case)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

How does Eldritch Heritage make the Wildblooded Sorcerer "useless"?
The intense feat investment to gain all the Bloodline powers in no way makes the Wildblooded Sorcerer a weaker option.

Why is a wildblooded bloodline, not a bloodline?


re: that 'useless' issue, it has nothing to do with Eldritch Heritage per se.
I'm just talking about a full Sorceror with one Bloodline.
If Wildblooded Mutant Bloodlines are 'just bloodlines' that anybody with access to a Bloodline can choose to take just like any other Bloodline (your position AFAIK), then why would you ever need to choose the Wildblooded Archetype in the first place (as a Sorceror)? I'm just saying that the reason for the WB Archetype to exist only makes sense if it's doing something unique. Note that by RAW, you probably can't take both Wildblooded and Crossblooded Archetypes, since they both modify the BL Power Class Feature.

I'm not taking any position here on RAI or 'balance' or whatever.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why is a wildblooded bloodline, not a bloodline?

This line of argumentation is pretty convincing to me. The fact that these are "mutated bloodlines" from an archetype which adapt existing ones doesn't change the fact that they are, nonetheless, bloodlines themselves. By that reasoning the Eldritch Heritage allows you to take a Sorcerer bloodline (no restriction given RAW in Eldritch Heritage about what the source the sorcerer bloodline has to be).

If this is the case, the Sylvan bloodline issue still presents itself: If the animal companion granted is strictly a bloodline power which merely *counts* as an arcana (distinct from IS an arcana/replaces an arcana), then there would be no issue with gaining an animal companion this way, even RAW.

Of course, that's just one interpretation of a very vagueintersection of multiple features. I can still see the merit in the arguments completely opposed to mine given here, it's just not something we can resolve by interpretting what is written, since it is ambiguous and wasn't accounted for when written.

Quandary wrote:
why would you ever need to choose the Wildblooded Archetype in the first place (as a Sorceror)?

For the same reason a cleric would "need" to choose a subdomain? It just adds customizability to a class feature. It doesn't have to be unique to be useful.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

They don't have to be "just bloodlines" to be bloodlines.


Wildblooded is explicitly listed as an Archetype. Sub-Domains are not presented as a Cleric Archetype. (it specifically says: Instead of specific archetypes, each cleric can choose from a host of subdomains...) That you find their net effect to be equivalent 'customization' has no bearing on whether they are an Archetype or not. Wildblooded 'mutant bloodlines' rely on applying rules text from the Archetype. Sub-Domains are self-contained (not to mention there is no Archetype rules text to begin with).

The Sorceror Class Option section starts with:

Quote:
The following section introduces new sorcerer bloodlines, as well as two new sorcerer archetypes—crossblooded and wildblooded—the latter of which comes with its own unique selection of modified bloodlines to reflect its bizarre and mutated origins.

Mutated Bloodlines are a 'unique' feature of the WB Archetype, which is the only reason I can think of for them to not be listed amongst other Bloodlines that area freely selectable via the Bloodline Class Feature or Feats that emulate it.

Quote:
When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline, then select one of the following mutated bloodlines associated with that bloodline.

WB Archetype Sorcerors are still selecting normal Bloodlines to fulfill their Bloodline Class Feature, the Archetype is just further modifying that Bloodline: there is no independent 'selection' of WB mutant bloodlines... you can only 'select' (as a function of the Archetype) the ones 'associated' with the normal bloodlines which you already chose. So to use them, you must first choose the normal Bloodline with the choice given you by the Bloodline Class Feature... The 'mutant bloodlines' are not selected to fulfill the Bloodline Class Feature, even for WB Archetype Sorcerors. Eldrich Heritage is giving you a choice of Bloodlines, but it would require being modified by the WB Archetype in order to be 'transformed' to the mutant versions.

I can fully understand why anybody might disagree with this on a balance basis, or a RAI basis, although I believe that Paizo DOES intend for some of this to less flexible than one might imagine (e.g. Crossblooded/Wildblooded being illegal overlapping Archetypes). I can't understand how anybody can look at the RAW and not see that Wildblooded Archetype is written differently from Sub-Domains (non Archetype).

/shrug

Anyways, I hit the FAQ button.


You are arguing in a circle O.o We addressed why we think as written Eldritch Heritage should be able to access those bloodlines, and you respond with questions of why a sorcerer would ever take that archetype. It was kind of off topic but I respond saying that for a sorcerer they fill the same roll as subdomains. I understand they are written differently and function differently within each class in regard to other archetypes in particular; but that's not what I was commenting on. You asked why would a sorcerer take it and I answered.

The justification for potentially being able to use them is a separate issue, and the interpretation for that position would be blackbloodtroll's argument, that (regardless of whether they are only accessible to a sorcerer via an archetype or not) they are still sorcerer bloodlines, and as such are accessible by the Eldritch Heritage Feat.

In any case, this is simply the position I HOPE is correct; my position is that the rules as written are completely unclear and either position is equally feasible.


ok, so your position is that anybody with Eldritch Heritage can select mutant bloodlines (which rely on Sorceror Archetype rules to define all their qualities) that real Sorcerors (whether WB archetyped or not) cannot/do not select for their Bloodline Class Feature? (given the WB archetype rules explicitly require that you choose a normal bloodline for the bloodline class feature, the 'mutant bloodlines' are never presented as an equivalent choice to fulfill that class feature, and are sub-options of the ARCHETYPE only)


Quandary wrote:
ok, so your position is that anybody with Eldritch Heritage can select mutant bloodlines (which rely on Sorceror Archetype rules to define all their qualities) that vanilla (non-archetyped) Sorcerors cannot select for their Bloodline Class Feature? (given the WB archetype rules explicitly require that you choose a normal bloodline for the bloodline class feature, the 'mutant bloodlines' are never presented as an equivalent choice to fulfill that class feature, but are sub-options of the ARCHETYPE only)

As I said, I do concede that this is a perfectly valid interpretation, in fact I think this is the much more conservative position to take on it and the position I believe would be taken if a dev responds. I just don't think the rules as written provide any means for a definitive ruling one way or another, no matter how much common sense we throw at either side of the debate.

My position is that this is a case of ambiguous RAW and nonexistant RAI O.o


Just wanted to add this since it wasn't mentioned yet, the following FAQ suggests that non-sorcerers *might* be able to access the Sage bloodline (a wildblooded bloodline). This isn't definitive of course but yeah.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9o7y

FAQ wrote:

Sorcerer: Does a sorcerer with the sage bloodline (page 72) use her Int or Cha to determine uses per day of arcane bolt?

The sage sorcerer uses her Int to determine the number of daily uses of her bloodline powers, including arcane bolt. Therefore, whether arcane bolt lists Int or Cha, the sage sorcerer still uses her Int.
The bloodline power lists Cha because that's the standard terminology for sorcerer bloodlines (because all other sorcerers use Cha), and because there may be a way for a non-sorcerer to gain access to that bloodline power, in which case it should be based on Cha (like other sorcerer bloodline powers) instead of Int.

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/14/11


Quandary, you really are going off topic here.

Is it your argument that wildblooded bloodlines are not bloodlines? If not then I do not see the basis of your point being that the Eldritch Heritage feat requires you to "Select one sorcerer bloodline." Either it is a bloodline or it is not.

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Lune wrote:

Quandary, you really are going off topic here.

Is it your argument that wildblooded bloodlines are not bloodlines? If not then I do not see the basis of your point being that the Eldritch Heritage feat requires you to "Select one sorcerer bloodline." Either it is a bloodline or it is not.

I'll argue that wildblooded bloodlines are not bloodlines in and of themselves. A sorcerer who wants a wildblooded bloodline still picks the original bloodline, e.g. Draconic, Fae, etc., and then chooses the wildblooded archetype - which changes their selection to Linnorm, Sylvan, etc.

What I think Quandary is saying about the wildblooded archetype being "useless" is this: if the wildblooded bloodlines can just be chosen as if they were normal, generic bloodlines, then the wildblooded archetype does nothing at all. The only effect the archetype has is to modify your bloodline choice; if you can just pick those modified ones in the first place then a whole bunch of word count was wasted printing a meaningless archetype.

Wildblooded bloodlines are not bloodlines in the same way that a gravy boat won't get you across a lake. Adjectives are important sometimes.

Subdomains don't require an archetype to select.
Focused Aim doesn't require an archetype to select.
Wildblooded bloodlines do require an archetype to select.

I will also point out that all the wildblooded selections aren't even listed as bloodlines - they are listed under the archetype section for wildblooded - as modifications the archetype makes to existing bloodlines.

Now, as to whether it's broken to allow Eldritch Heritage to access this stuff; probably not. But I think it's a house rule.


Ah, so we have the first person coming out and arguing that bloodlines are not bloodlines. I do not follow that logic, sir.

Also, the wildblood archetype doesn't do nothing. It does as much as any archetype. It modifies your class abilities.

ryric wrote:
Wildblooded bloodlines do require an archetype to select.

Really? I do not recall seeing this anywhere. Do you have an actual rules reference to back this up?


They are listed under the archetype section of the sorceror entry.

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Lune wrote:

Ah, so we have the first person coming out and arguing that bloodlines are not bloodlines. I do not follow that logic, sir.

Also, the wildblood archetype doesn't do nothing. It does as much as any archetype. It modifies your class abilities.

ryric wrote:
Wildblooded bloodlines do require an archetype to select.
Really? I do not recall seeing this anywhere. Do you have an actual rules reference to back this up?

Ugh. This really has turned into a flamewar.

ryric is NOT arguing that "bloodlines aren't bloodlines". He's arguing that the Wildblooded archetype modifies the Bloodline feature of a Sorcerer, CREATING a new class feature called "Mutated Bloodline." This new class feature is based on the bloodline that was already chosen. Thus, Sylvan is NOT a bloodline that can be chosen by a character with Edlritch Heritage, becuase that character can't take the Wildblooded archetype UNLESS THEY ARE A SORCERER.

Fey Bloodline -> Wildblooded Sorcerer ARCHETYPE -> Sylvan Bloodline. There is NO OTHER WAY TO MAKE THE SYLVAN BLOODLINE EXIST FOR YOUR CHARACTER. That's the way the developers wrote the book. Deal with it.


They are called "bloodlines".

The Eldritch Heritage references only selecting a bloodline.

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