So my players have just exonerated the Beast and are preparing for the Castle and I'm having a problem keeping their motivation to continue.
HH is easy because they'll be paid a grand each for helping out and no one likes to let the undead wander around. Supporting the Beast is also easy because another grand and they think they'll be able to convince him to join the party. The castle has loot (and another chance to get the Beast to join). But they don't care about the effigy (probably don't even remember it) or Vrood.
I have a larger storyline. Ancient evil being brought back; last sealed away by family patriarch; will be out for revenge if it breaks free... but the players just don't care. They are not adventurers for the sake of saving the world; they are more adventurers for the sake of immediate concrete gain (money, items). Suggestions?
Also, how are other GMs managing party motivation?
Do your players care about saving the world? Are they sleeping with Kendra? Are they secretly hoping to join the cult? Do like just play along with whatever motivation they are prescribed?
Also, how are other GMs managing party motivation?
In my view, it's not my duty as a GM to motivate the players or characters. I assume the players are motivated, otherwise they wouldn't be at the table (it is my job not to ruin that motivation though), and it's each player's job to come up with a motivation for their character. In general as well as in specific circumstances. I tell them they can play whatever they want, as long as it's a) someone who can work in a group and wants to, and b) someone who has a reason to go on adventures, someone who wants to go on adventures.
Short-term financial gain is a very poor reason, but if they can't come up with anything better, point out they might be able to loot the place, gain a reward from Caromarc for saving the Beast if it is indeed connected to him, or have the Judge or someone else offer them money to find out the whole truth. Just subtract the money offered from anything they find or would otherwise earn so they don't get more in total than they should.
And if they never care about anyone and anything but money, let them be on the other hand of that regularly. If they help people, people help them, if they always require payment, no one's going to do them favors either.
Also, how are other GMs managing party motivation?In my view, it's not my duty as a GM to motivate the players or characters. I assume the players are motivated, otherwise they wouldn't be at the table (it is my job not to ruin that motivation though), and it's each player's job to come up with a motivation for their character.
I understand what you are saying and I agree in part, but I also disagree. It is up to the story and thus the GM to put some hooks on the table and these hooks must be interesting. For a fire and forget DMing experience like Pathfinder Society, yes, it is entirely up to the players to invest in these hooks. For a campaign though, the DM must work with the characters to ensure that their motivations fit the story line. If they don't, then either the character can be changed in some way or the story can be altered but leaving it empty is unsatisfying for both DM and player. You are two actors, working together to improvise a story.
That's the general case...
In the specific case, I think there is a weakness in the AP in that the real bad guys (The Whispering Way) are not explicit enough. The PCs should be thinking all the way through module 2 ("Ok, lets get the Beast acquited and then that might help us defeat the Whispering Way"). All the way through module 3 the PCs should be thinking ("Ok, lets investigate these were-wolves and that might lead us closer to defeating the Whispering Way). And so on. It's just not explicit enough that THESE GUYS ARE THE MAIN VILLIANS.
I think you as a DM need to recognise that weakness in the AP, and adapt the story to make this more obvious. For my DMing, I did this through some player-read scripts which are available here. I also inserted at least one Whispering Way fight in modules 1 and 2 so the PCs can beat down on some cultists.
Back to MurphysParadox's points, you say your adventures care less about saving others and more about money/loot. Sure, that's fine. But the world is at stake here. If they don't save it, they'll be dead. Dead as in not coming back. Dead dead. They care about not being dead right? Maybe you could raise the stakes on that, show them that the Whispering Way really mean business. Perhaps have them destroy a whole village, animating 500 zombies and having it invade (unsuccessfully) Lepidstadt. Basically point a big arrow saying "LOOK GUYS THESE DUDES ARE SERIOUS!"
You can also appeal to their mercenary nature. The Order of The Palantine Eye have money and resources. Promise them a nice country estate, some land, a statue of themselves in the middle of Caliphas, whatever. It can be a reward they get *after* they defeat the Whispering Way. You want some gold too? Sure, take 5000 gold right now if you just STOP THE ZOMBIE INVASION. (Your players don't need to know you've just removed 5000 gold from the Castle Caromarc loot to make this tally up).
Basically, you can fit the story to the players, and you should. If it's really a problem, have them adjust their characters.
As for Kendra, well she doesn't have a huge amount of personality so you can play with that as well. She's a gothic middle-class heroine, so she won't be horribly materialistic but should could be sassy and tough underneath rather than a damsel. That might appeal more to their characters. Or they may not be interested in pursuing a love-interest, lots of players aren't. That's fine, move along and find some more hooks to play with. Hey, have you heard about huge number of lost secret treasures buried somewhere in the Shudderwood?
Good suggestions.
I see the GM as providing the story and the players providing a POV in that story. I can't make the players interested in things and they don't have to be interested in what I provide. They know, in a meta-game sense, that they are supposed to go along with what I say if they want to keep getting together to play Pathfinder. However, I have to make sure they don't try too hard to make themselves interested.
The GM should know the characters and the players and turn the story in ways that make the characters go "oh, yes, we should go gallivanting off to do XYZ" as well as make the players go "oh, yes, this should be an interesting thing to learn or experience". Without the former, you get no roleplaying. Without the later you get no roleplaying and bored players just looking for the next fight.
My players don't care about the end of the world. That is too abstract. They seem to have no investment in the story and lots of investment in the character's progression.
It is valid that this AP is very abstract about the WW and how it is evil. The threat is also very distant and mysterious; it takes forever to show player action = effect on the world. Ravengro? They didn't do anything but clean up after the WW. They didn't stop any plans. Same with Book 2; it is all over when they get there. Again, no obvious result of activities, nothing that you can say "you did good! You stopped the world ending!" or even "you got one of the high ranking members, the WW sure is going to be pissed that you messed up their plans! Congrats!"
These players always form mercenary groups in every campaign we have, heh. I should stop fighting it. Palantine Eye should just start paying them to do things, heh.
Thanks; still interested in how others run the game with their players.
I understand what you are saying and I agree in part, but I also disagree. It is up to the story and thus the GM to put some hooks on the table and these hooks must be interesting. For a fire and forget DMing experience like Pathfinder Society, yes, it is entirely up to the players to invest in these hooks. For a campaign though, the DM must work with the characters to ensure that their motivations fit the story line.Also, how are other GMs managing party motivation?In my view, it's not my duty as a GM to motivate the players or characters. I assume the players are motivated, otherwise they wouldn't be at the table (it is my job not to ruin that motivation though), and it's each player's job to come up with a motivation for their character.
Yes, of course.
The hooks are there. There's a reason to visit the castle, and once you're there, something is obviously amiss, and you find signs of the WW having been there.
But if the players insist their characters won't do anything that doesn't yield immediate benefits in the form of money or magical items, these hooks might not be enough, so you have to offer other incentives, as I suggested. Naturally you should have prevented the whole situation from arising by giving players an idea what the AP is about and have them create characters with more fitting motivations, or by having a talk with them about what kind of game you all want to play, and how it can work if the players always have the same primary motivation (advancing their characters) and are unable or refuse to find a different one for their characters.
The hooks are there. There's a reason to visit the castle, and once you're there, something is obviously amiss, and you find signs of the WW having been there.
Indeed, but who are the Whispering Way, and why should you go to the castle, and why should you care? They killed the professor, whom you knew, but people you know die all the time. They are a bunch of evil necromancers, but so what? There are lots of evil groups in the world and in Ustalav. Perhaps we should sort out the corruption problems in Tamriviena that we encountered on the way to Lepidtstadt. And you've been told to go to a castle by a Judge/Golem but perhaps you could go to Caliphas instead? After all, that is where the Splatter Man came from and there is lots of areas of research there, maybe that is a better next move (assuming you even want to investigate the Whispering Way).
Basically my point is that it is not obvious enough that: The Whispering Way have an Evil Plot that must be stopped RIGHT NOW. It's a race against time. You need to catch Auren Vrood! The professor's body is what started this, but it's bigger than this now. We can't give up! Vrood almost certainly was the one behind the Golem's strange behaviour, and he has almost certainly left clues at Castle Caromarc. Let's go track him down now, while the trail is still warm.
The AP needs to make that clear, and I think us as DMs need to help instil this message of both urgency and danger.
Basically my point is that it is not obvious enough that: The Whispering Way have an Evil Plot that must be stopped RIGHT NOW. It's a race against time. You need to catch Auren Vrood! The professor's body is what started this, but it's bigger than this now. We can't give up! Vrood almost certainly was the one behind the Golem's strange behaviour, and he has almost certainly left clues at Castle Caromarc. Let's go track him down now, while the trail is still warm.
That's my problem. So they are fine helping out in Harrowstone because of dear friend Professor and dear innocent Kendra. They learn that there is a group called Whispering Way and that they were in town awhile ago, doing bad things. Ok... fine... but that stuff is already done and the only reason to go to Lepidstadt is the final wish of the Professor (and 1000gp a piece, which is fine).
Defending the Beast is good for more money as well. What's this about Whispering Way? Oh, yeah, hope they are not succeeding; haven't heard from them in awhile. You get some info from the castle, but not until then. There are no hints between Vesorianna (or whatever her name is; warden's wife) and talking to the Beast's Father regarding the Whispering Way in the first two books.
Push for book 3 looks to be revenge on the Professor's killer (now identified as Vrood). Still no real detail on what the Way is doing or how current events fit into it. There is no pressure, no "RIGHT NOW" or feeling of time. The guy doesn't even have a name until the end of book 2.
This is where the GM has to do stuff. The GM needs to add details like a "Thanks for fixing harrowstone, that was Vrood's fault... you should find him in Lepidstadt if you can hurry. - AA" letter. It still doesn't push for "save the world!" but at least it is something other than a pot of gold.
This is the problem I've got. My players, and their characters, don't really care about the Whispering Way. Why should they? What has made this a personal issue for them? Killing Vrood... maybe, but not in his capacity as a cultist but because he's a friend-slaying bastard.
Sorry, I don't get it. It looks like all you need is a reason for them to go to the castle, and that can be handled by the Judge asking them / offering them money to. Once there, they find signs of the WW's presence, so they have a reason (beyond the one that got them there) to explore further, and when they find the Count, he tells them more. Why don't they care about the organization that killed their, as you write, dear friend Professor, and which they don't want to succeed? How can the murder of their dear friend not be a personal issue? How can time not be an issue when the murderer is getting away? They don't need to be perfect altruists for this.
Maybe we're just too far apart in our general approach to roleplaying, but to me it sounds your players are the problem, not the module. Either there was a misunderstanding regarding how well pure mercenaries fit into this AP, or the players are unable or unwilling to come up with motivations for their characters, even though there are hooks. I know players who always only want XPs, money, and magic items, who are unable to make characters that want anything else, and who are also unable to realize that in a roleplaying game you are going to get XPs, money, and magic items no matter what. These aren't players I enjoy playing with.
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1. In the room with the notes about the Bondslave Thrall, maybe they can also discover an elaborate diagram or formula that details just exactly what the Carrion Crown does and what its components are (or maybe use the poem from the end of Broken Moon). Maybe that'll help them figure out what's at stake.
2. Or maybe make the fate of the guards at the Schloss particularly gruesome. Maybe they'll start hating the Whispering Way for it.
3. You could kill Kendra off if the PCs like her. Make it obvious that the WW did it.
4. Have the Judge offer them membership in the EO, with all the privileges that accompany it. In return, she sends them on quests against the Way. She can also explain the Way's ultimate evil goal. And maybe she knows what the Carrion Crown is and how dangerous the WW's current plot might be.
5. Have the WW abduct one or more of the PCs and torture them. Boom, instant revenge motivation. Or if you really want to be thorough, have them steal some of the PCs' stuff. :)
6. In my game, I've played up Adivion and Kendra as recurring characters and quest givers. They help provide motivation to the players by tying the plot together. The players are also trying to figure out whether Adivion is a friend or an enemy. And now that my players are finally getting to Feldgrau, the fun will *really* begin...
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Good Ideas:1. In the room with the notes about the Bondslave Thrall, maybe they can also discover an elaborate diagram or formula that details just exactly what the Carrion Crown does and what its components are (or maybe use the poem from the end of Broken Moon). Maybe that'll help them figure out what's at stake.2. Or maybe make the fate of the guards at the Schloss particularly gruesome. Maybe they'll start hating the Whispering Way for it.
3. You could kill Kendra off if the PCs like her. Make it obvious that the WW did it.
4. Have the Judge offer them membership in the EO, with all the privileges that accompany it. In return, she sends them on quests against the Way. She can also explain the Way's ultimate evil goal. And maybe she knows what the Carrion Crown is and how dangerous the WW's current plot might be.
5. Have the WW abduct one or more of the PCs and torture them. Boom, instant revenge motivation. Or if you really want to be thorough, have them steal some of the PCs' stuff. :)
6. In my game, I've played up Adivion and Kendra as recurring characters and quest givers. They help provide motivation to the players by tying the plot together. The players are also trying to figure out whether Adivion is a friend or an enemy. And now that my players are finally getting to Feldgrau, the fun will *really* begin...
Trinite really hit it on the nail here, and I echo what others have said: if the PCs are determined to be apathetic treasure-hunters, then they're in the wrong book/campaign.
Yes well, part of it is my players. They really want to roleplay characters with interests in things and stuff of the game world... but they slip easily and forget in-character motivations. It isn't malicious, it is just difficult for them to keep it together and on point. Our 4-6 weeks between sessions probably doesn't help.
The AP appears to focus on characters that want to be world-savers but then makes no point about saving the world or the evil group who wish to blow it up until book 3. That is the core problem Evil Paul and I were getting at. Treasure and money stands as the only motivation for the first 1.5 books in fact, so you can't really hold it against the players for being keyed to expect contracts and mercenary / treasure seeking work.
Thanks for the suggestions Trinite. My original interest in this thread was for things that other GMs did, such as you indicate in point 6. As written, the AP is a little lacking at the start and I wondered what modifications were made.
Personally, I'm going to probably hit a bit of creepy evil magic increasing (guard corpses in the Castle softly chanting the poem), a contract from Judge Daramid to capture or kill the murderer Vrood plus some hints that things are bigger than just him and desires of a group of 'wealthy and interested persons' for adventurers to go save the world from whatever the larger situation is. It should pique various and divided interests of the players.
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Happy to help, Murphys! I'm glad you're looking for ways to jazz up the AP. I agree that it's a little disjointed in the first couple of books as written. I'm thinking maybe the first couple of authors didn't have complete knowledge of how things were eventually going to develop.
FYI, if you want to do more with Adivion in particular, there are several other threads in this forum with cool ideas of how to enhance him.
As I have said, we're at the "thanks for saving me; come by the house in a week" part of the book. The judge also has asked them to go to the castle.
On Friday, I got an email from one of my players asking for more detail on motivation because he just can't see why they should care about the Beast or his father. I was like "oh, well, how interesting you are asking about this now because I've been talking to other GMs about it on the forum..."
I'd say the major motivation points that need a push in books 1 and 2 are why to go into Harrowstone and why to go to the Castle. Sticking around Ravengro, going to Lepidstadt, and defending the Beast have the same two concurrent and supportive motivations: money and being good guys. Dealing with Harrowstone gets the money angle if the players make it to the Town Hall meeting (it always has the 'being good guys' aspect).
Going to the castle doesn't have either money or being good guys about it. It just a 'if you are not otherwise busy...' request.
I'll be redoing my Beast conversation and the Judge Daramid's request. I'm actually thinking of having a scene with the two of them and the player. She can ask about his father (her position with the Palantine Eye means she knows something about this), where he was, why this happened, and if he was involved with the break in. The Beast goes can speak as to his not knowing, not having seen his father in a long time, and a desire to go and check on him. The Beast is also curious about the rage surrounding the break-in.
The Judge asks the players to stick around for a few days to give testimony in upcoming trials against V&G's illicit customers. After a week or so, she indicates concern that the Beast still isn't back, letters to his father continue to go unanswered, and she's concerned as to what happened. She contracts with the PCs to go investigate and ensure the rumored 'device' has not fallen into illicit hands.
Gets money and concern for the Beast going as motivation. At the castle there will be plenty of Whispering Way references to finally push them at the actual evil badguys of this AP.
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What about the Professor? I believe he was meant to be the main factor as to why the characters care about Ravengro/Harrowstone in the first place.
He was the good mentor character who got randomly offed, and your PCs should be fairly peeved at the Way. Also, emphasis at the end of Trial of the Beast that the Way is responsible for the whole ordeal including the madhouse horror of a dungeon that is Schloss Caromarc.
My group was fairly indifferent towards the Way too until they got their butts handed to them by Schloss (losing half the party in the final battle.) After that, they were out for blood.
The Way has a very important role in the first three books, it's just behind the scenes. Point the PCs towards the little details and emphasize that the Way is a constant factor in things, and they're just inches from catching up to them.
I do understand your concerns though, don't let me sound like I'm condensing. My group was dealing with the exact same problem for the longest time, and I'm just excited to help another DM get it more right than I did.
The players all come from the same clan (descended from a group of adventurers several years back; not related by blood but having grown up together) and the Professor would tell stories about the Family's adventurers of old. This, however, was many many sessions ago and we play infrequently. I don't think any one player could recall the details described when we started without help.
Yeah, I know the Way is doing bad things, but the players wont know for awhile. They know Vrood went north after Harrowstone but then they get waylaid by the Beast trial and have no further information on Vrood (whom they only know by name because I gave them a little thank you note from "AA" after cleaning up Vrood's mess at the prison).
It is hard to get the PCs pointed at the WW when they have already left the town by the time the PCs arrive, but I do consider it.
I plan some creepy evil magic events in Caromarc similar to Trinite's 1st and 2nd points above (corpses quietly reciting the poem over and over should be good fun!) Nothing so strong as an encounter, just the feeling of great evil being performed in the castle by very evil people.
When your gaming sessions are so far apart, hooks like Professor Lorrimor dry up quickly. He's somewhat abstract to begin with, since he is a mentor for the characters, yet the players never get to meet him.
I have used Kendra's ongoing presence as a living reminder that the PCs need to avenge the Professor's murder. While they were defending the Beast in Lepistadt, I had Kendra ransacking the university's library to find necromantic rituals with which she could contact her father (sidebar: rituals are great gothic flavour. I recommend Zombie Press's "Incantations from the Other Side" supplement for this).
If you level her up along with the PCs, Kendra can hold her own in combat, which helps justify her use from the players' perspective. For the GM, she's invaluable for keeping the PCs focused; while they scrounge around for gold or glory, she can be single-minded, spot clues the PCs miss, and generally keep them on the rails.
Also, don't forget that meta-gaming can sometimes be your friend. Before a session, you're justified in saying, "Look, this part of the module doesn't have a very strong hook, but you're gonna love the combat encounters, so please just play along."
I have Kendra; she's mainly the wizard's crafting assistant (there's some feat for that somewhere) so he can be a item crafter without requiring so much off time. Right now she has just been hanging out in Lepidstadt and shopping (great place to dump a character whose player is missing the session... baggage handler duty for Kendra!)
My players are expecting her to be captured or poisoned or turned or otherwise used as a forced "do what I say" event. I dont know if I will... she's certainly not expected to be in combat or get involved in anything so direct as that. AA and her know each other, so that'll be used in the future (already brought it up once).
I've heard others have used her in place of some female NPC in a later book.
I agree about the problem with hooks like the professor. Kendra is a better choice for attachment, even if it is primarily the effective doubling of time to craft new gear (given my players' attachment to gear, getting her back would be a notable motivator, heh).
I've been worried about the same thing; they just started Trial of the Beast (and in fact I've sent them on a small side quest at the behalf of Judge Daramid's niece - Feast of Ravenmoor, in fact, which I relocated to Ustalav and which is a great follow-up to Haunting of Harrowstone given its stirge theme) while I figure out some of the niceties of making it work.
One of the players is very interested in the Beast, and in fact they bribed the guards at the Courthouse in order to get a chance to see it; the head guard figured that for a few gold some visiting dignitaries could certainly get a tour of the courthouse.
But I like the idea of having Kendra show up later trying to track down what happened to her father; I think I'll have her find some evidence pointing at Schloss Caromac to cement the hook. It'll be weak evidence at best, but I think that will be just the thing to make them darn certain that's where to go next. I think that connection, along with IdiotDogBrain's awesome ideas for Schloss Caromac will make the end of this adventure really work.
I pondered how much of Schloss Caromarc I should bring up before the end of the trial. The real danger is if your players figure out that the Beast's father is there and decide to run off an get him to testify at the trial.
Obviously there's no way that'll work out and the party probably won't be high enough level to get far at the castle, but it may also result in several PC deaths before they should be there and in pursuit of a path not yet necessary. It won't mess story line up too badly, since their absence from the trial will result in the Beast losing and running off.
Yeah, IdiotDogBrain's idea is a kind of genius that I'm also stealing. Also allows for a lot more exposition. I'm also not sure I want duke what's-his-name to actually live. I can use the mechanical creatures for detailing information and that way my players don't feel wrong stealing the place blind. We'll see when I get there.
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I don't know what happened with the Beast for you but I had him run out of town despite being found not guilty. The PCs decided to follow him to get him home safely. That is when they discover something amiss at the castle. Beasts takes off and PCs are forced to use the front door.
Stealing all of count Alpons stuff was a terrible idea. I ended up adding in a bunch of loot of my own that made a little more sense.
My players got something like 16 diplomacy successes defending the Beast, as well as all the things from V&Gs and the head of the doctor from Sanctuary and the bodies of the kids from the village. The judges basically dropped the majority of charges and the Beast got to go home.
I like the idea of the Beast going his own specialized way and leaving the players to break in on their own, heh.
I pondered how much of Schloss Caromarc I should bring up before the end of the trial. The real danger is if your players figure out that the Beast's father is there and decide to run off an get him to testify at the trial.
I don't think that's a danger at all. In fact that is the ideal situation. The players only have 2 days to get all the evidence for the trial and the Schloss is 3 days travel each way. You want the players to be saying "Ok, lets solve the trial clues now and then we'll bust down the castle after that".
True... hadn't considered the 3 day travel bit. Guess my players get a little 'on the road' crafting time to work on scrolls.
I'm lucky in that my players enjoyed the mystery of the trial, though they were making noises of the 'so what, he is an ugly abomination, we should offer to help burn him' but that went away about the moment the Judge offered them money.
The AP suggests keeping the information about his father from being released until after the trial. I believe this is because no one but the Beast actually knows this, but I could be wrong about that. I think such information being known by Daramid in her position with the Palantine Eye is reasonable though.
What I did last session -
After the trial, while the players are standing around the Beast, Judge Daramid comes up. She asks the Beast if he has seen his father lately and if the Beast has any idea as to the break-in and theft of the effigy. He doesn't, and says he has not seen or spoken to his father in some time. Daramid indicates concern and asks him to go and check if all is well and to let her know immediately. He agrees and leaves.
Daramid has the players stay in town to testify in cases against various doctors and professors that were implicated in the records from V&G's. After five days, she calls them to a dinner. She thanks them again for their work both with defending the Beast as well as the recent boring testimony. She then relates a concern of her's that there has been no word from the Beast; she expected one the day before (since he is stronger and immune to fatigue, he can run the 3 day trip in about a day each way, plus some time to check in on dad).
She requests the assistance of the party to go north and investigate the castle. She does not believe Caromarc would have had anything to do with what happened, as he has been secluded since his family died and he lost power, but she's worried about some rumors that her and her 'friends' (the palantine eye, though I don't mention that) have of a device that could control the Beast.
She has no proof of the rumor, but it would be disturbing if true. This is why she wants to hire the players and deputize them as representatives of Lepidstadt. She requests they look into 1) Where the Beast has gone to, 2) Ascertain the state and health of Caromarc 3) Ask Caromarc about rumors of a means to control the Beast.
She gives them each a +1 cloak of resistance as an initial offer and promises 1000g a piece upon return, with possibility of bonuses depending on results (a means to get around the 'what to do if players don't want to rob Caromarc blind' issue).
The players seemed happy about this. There is still no WW mentioned, but it fits Daramid's character and the flavor of this entire book to be hired for yet another Beast related thing. It works for my player group especially well as they are an adventuring mercenary company and are primarily motivated by money.
Another quick and dirty fix is to have one of the construction workers stumble into town with a story of the Whispering Way (well, mysterious cultists lead by a guy in bone armor) and torture and his escape and near drowning in the river. It should help with players looking to avenge the Professor's death.