I wouldn't mind seeing more on Demons and Devils, and would love to see these returned to at some point. One 64 page each just serves as an appetizer!
There's no doubt that many of us here at Paizo love our fiends - we've cranked out three entries into the Book of the Damned series after all. But is that all there is to say about devils, demons, and daemons?
We're talking (over here) about possible future entries into the Book of the Damned series getting away from the three big "D" races, but we know devils, demons, and daemons are popular and get a ton of use in modules, Adventure Paths, org. play, home games, etc.
So, if we were to do more on devils, demons, and daemons now that the Book of the Damned series has hit all three of them, what else is there to say about them? What did the first three Books of the Damned leave you wanting more of? What - specifically about devils, demons, and daemons - do you still want to see?
Qlippoths! Qlippoths! More qlippoths! With cherry on the top! And then Rakshasa.
If doing more on devils, demons and daemons, then more fiendish magic, more options for conjuring fiends and more low CR fiends. Off with the misguided belief that on low levels characters should rarely meet outsiders.
What - specifically about devils, demons, and daemons - do you still want to see?
*The sound of Wes's head hitting his desk*
If it's not about the 3 big "D" fiendish races, Take it Over Here! :P
Possession rules.
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How 'bout detailing one specific location each in Hell, the Abyss and Abaddon.
You remember the "sample city-state" Laws and Schwalb presented in Tyrants of the Nine Hells -- it was for a Prime Material world but that kind of write-up for each of the three Evils, on location, would be cool.
you could call it. It could be built like Lost Cities of Golarion and just have locations in the Netherworlds.
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Stuff with 6 HD or less that can be summoned via lesser planar binding. Scouts, bruisers, things that low- to mid-level PCs can comfortably face and can reasonably be summoned by someone below 11th level. More detail on the big three races. Qlippoths and kytons don't really do anything for me.
Honestly, I'd rather see more about good outsiders (and elementals) first, though.
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Stuff with 6 HD or less that can be summoned via lesser planar binding. Scouts, bruisers, things that low- to mid-level PCs can comfortably face and can reasonably be summoned by someone below 11th level.
What tonyz said.
6 HD or less thuggish deformed footsoldier demons trapped in a state of perpetual rage. 6 HD or less devil legionnaires, marching rank and file, like a well-oiled machine of infernal destruction.
Stuff focusing on the Law and Chaos aspects of devils and demons, and not just the Evil. Demons with powers like confusion, baleful polymorph and freedom of action, as they warp reality (and minds) with their presence. Devils with powers to interdict, restrain or control others like command, hold monster or dimensional anchor.
Rules for possession, mentioned upthread, also sound useful.
How 'bout detailing one specific location each in Hell, the Abyss and Abaddon.
You remember the "sample city-state" Laws and Schwalb presented in Tyrants of the Nine Hells -- it was for a Prime Material world but that kind of write-up for each of the three Evils, on location, would be cool.
you could call it. It could be built like Lost Cities of Golarion and just have locations in the Netherworlds.
That's a really cool idea there. :)
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What about a book dealing with how their agents interact with Golarion? I.E. a book focused on specific cults, their major figures, how they spread, interact with each other, and what their long term goals are?
Something like "Cults of the Damned" or the like.
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What about a book dealing with how their agents interact with Golarion? I.E. a book focused on specific cults, their major figures, how they spread, interact with each other, and what their long term goals are?
Something like "Cults of the Damned" or the like.
Ooo, good idea! And it would merit section about black magic, conjuring fiends and low CR fiends they can conjure! :P
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I very much like the suggestions around expanding the information beyond simple bestiary entries (not that they're particularly simple, but...). Sure, new Demon Lords etc are always welcome, but definitely more detail on their domains, specific locations, and variant uses for their abilities and agendas. More stuff like the 3e Hordes of the Abyss - rules for possession and exorcism, demon crafted items designed to entrap mortals, devilish contracts, how the brave, greedy and foolhardy summon and treat with nether planar beings. More on unique beings - servants of the greater lords and ladies that could be used to challenge lower level parties (note, not 'low' level, just lower than the upper echelons needed to battle DC20+), examples of plots and campaigns undertaken on prime material realms, rules for demon hunters and devil slayers. What about lower planar constructs and machines? And just how does the economy of a town or fortress in the Abyss or Nine Hells work? I mean, I find it hard to imagine these beings living in any kind of normal society. How would such a place function?
Also, and this is kinda hard to quantify, I want these places to be strange. Back in the days of 1e I would leap on any mention of other planes, of the inhabitants thereof that occasionally showed up in places like Vault of the Drow. They radiated otherness, something weird, alien, inhuman and malignant, and really stirred my imagination. And then along came Planescape which, for me, just didn't succeed in conveying that convincingly. It was just another adventure location that 1st or 2nd level characters could - with a bit of preparation - head off to. Heck, they even lived there. To me, that just demolished what was different and forbidding about the lower planes. Going there should have been tantamount to suicide; only the high level, or incredibly lucky, could hope to venture there and come away unscathed. In fact, in all likelihood, no-one could hope to come away unscathed in some way. Much of it should have been too much for mortal minds to even contemplate (of course, eventually, that arena was usurped by the Far Realm). I'd like to see those inhuman vistas beckoning again from the edge of madness and evil.
I mean, really, all kinds of stuff. That's just off the top of my head. Personally, I'd be quite happy to immerse myself in a hardback on the subject, because I'm darned sure it would get more use than many others on my shelves, but that's just me.
"Cults of the Damned"
This gets my vote.
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If this is asking about Demons, Devils, and Daemons specifically:
More unique fiends and NPCs of specific fiend types could be really fun. An NPC Guide/Faces of Sigil-style book all about the scene down in the Lower Planes, presenting a rogues gallery for PCs to tangle and get entangled with. Where the Books of the Damned go into detail about fiend lord-types that serve as beings of worship and forces for PCs to take on indirectly, these guys could be more accessable threats that they could eventually face directly.
I don't think I'd want to restrict such a cast book to just demons, devils, and daemons though, considering the possibilities kytons, qlippoths, and the rest bring to the table.
"Cults and Cities of the Damned" has some real appeal too....
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The Book of the Damned series has been excellent so far and I'd love to see more material in this vein.
I would like to see more information on locations that the various lower-planar outsiders dwell in. I think that W. E. Ray's suggestion of doing a gazetteer of lower-planer cities is an excellent one.
Another thing that I would like to see is more information on Infernal Dukes and Harbingers. There's little information on both compared to Nascent Demon Lords, and the lists of the Infernal Dukes and Harbingers in the backs of the respective books hint at interesting individuals who currently have nearly no info on them. I'd like to see both flavor describing a selection of each as well as stats for at least one of each (similar to how Treerazer and the Nascent Demon Lord version of Ruthazek got stats), as well as rules on progressing into either category similar to the Nascent Demon Lord info. More info on the Malebranche would be similarly appreciated.
Thirdly, I'd like to see examples of outsiders more affiliated with other parts of the cosmos and planes beyond Golarion proper. Hell, Abaddon, and the Abyss are all supposed to be incredibly massive, each able to contains galaxies upon galaxies worth of things. They're connected to essentially the whole of the material plane, which is shown to have many exotic environments in Distant Worlds. Hell is outright called out as having a member of the Malebranche for each planet in Golarion's system and many worlds beyond that. I'd like to see the presence of more alien fiends, information about some of the less-Earth-like parts of the planes they dwell in, and also information on more technologically-advanced fiends. The material plane has starships, worlds of robots, cybernetics, and all sorts of technology beyond what is seen on Golarion. I'd like to see other-planar beings taking advantage of this in some way: skyscrapers and junkyards in Dis, bioweapon factories in Abaddon, demons with heavy ballistic weaponry, etc. At present, I really only get a sense of the planes in their relation to Golarion and not a sense of their vastness and the strange things out in their farther reaches.
Those three, particularly the top two, are probably my current biggest requests. The following is stuff that I'm less interested in, but that I'd still somewhat like to see.
I think there were rules for possession in one of the Council of Thieves volumes. If I'm misremembering, that'd be a good thing to include. I'm fairly sure it's in one of them, though.
A minor thing that I'd be interested in would be more information on type-specific half-fiends. As things stand, a half-succubus is the same as a half-olethrodaemon; it'd get a bit prohibitive writing up sections for all the possible fiend types, but including some alternate half-fiend features could be useful.
The major cults mentioned could be interesting. I'm particularly interested in Alichino's.
Specific servants of various unique fiends could also be interesting; something in the vein of heralds of unique servitor races.
More types of all of the fiends would be appreciated. While there's now a good base range of all of the big three types, planar campaigns could still use more of each. The low-HD ones mentioned upthread could work well.
Information on added powers that the Book of the Damned gains as you assemble different pieces could be an interesting sidebar.
I have a particular fondness for information on the Devils, but further info on any of the three would be appreciated.
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A minor thing that I'd be interested in seeing would be more information on type-specific half-fiends
WotC provided some loose guidelines as a web enhancement to the 3.5 MM.
As for me, put me squarely in the "Moar Qlippoth!!!1!!one!" camp. Love those bizarre, freakish monstrosities that time forgot.
I would support W E Ray list, albeit with reversed priority: Cults firs, Fiends second, Cities last.
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Cults last for me but I'm still really interested in it. I'd buy it in a heartbeat (and the other two faster).
And Cities and Fiends might actually be reversed for me but since I'm the one who came up with the idea for Cities I put it first.
Qlippoths, on the other hand, well -- other folks like it it seems. But here's hoping the R&D at Paizo decides that the other three are more needed.
Contributor
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I think there's real potential for groundbreaking & unusual takes on infernal worship. Overt, antinomian, cults that masquerade as something else, savage, and decadent...
I also think that the cities and geographies of the lower planes - we still haven't moved that far from Dante - could have some real variety and potential.
Possession rules.Done!
Welp looks like I need to save up and buy Council of Thieves then, if I'm gonna get one I might as well get them all. =)
If you do do infernal locations other planes, make them weirdly other planar. There should be a difference between "I teleport to a far country" and "I plane shift to another plane.".
Something like the weird geometry of the original Module Q1, for instance, would be great.
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More CR4-7 foot soldiers. I hate having to throw Bearded Devils at my parties en mass simply because Imps & Lemures are wimps and Kytons aren't devils anymore :(
Lemme help you out...
CR 4-7 Devils in Pathfinder:
4 Ukobach Pathfinder #25
5 Barbazu Bestiary
6 Magaav BotD
6 Lesser Gidim Pathfinder #29
7 Levaloch BotD
7 Salikotal Pathfinder #26
Still going with Cults of the Damned as my first choice
A book discussing specific fiend types (ala the revisited series) would be my second preference. As long as it didn't push back a revisited book on Fey or Aberrations, which need the love more.
A Cities of the Damned would be my last preference. I would rather (in an ideal world) see that information packaged in a hardcover Great Beyond campaign setting guide, or a more campaign setting book focused on one specific plane.
I am always cool with more demons and devils, but if we are going to introduce new fiends, I would rather flesh out the Qlippoth, Divs, Kytons, etc first, who have only, what 5 or so types?
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I'm gonna somewhat critical here and say that in general I don't think the fiendish races need some further thought on how the various fiendish races (especially the daemons/qlippoths/demons) are distinguished in practice rather than on a hypothetical level. By this, I mean, if we're going to have many compartmentalized fiendish races (something I'm not necessarily opposed to), then I think we needs some more hints on distinguishing them thematically on a practical level that gms and players can use in game.
For example, the "theme" of daemons is that they're associated with death- they want to destroy all that man knows because they hate everything. Yet, tearing up mortals (in some derivative, what happens a lot in games) is already claimed by demons and (who embody physical violence already) and qlippoths (who also hate mortals, though for theoretically different reasons).
Basically, I think there's a tendency in D&D games and their spin offs to treat (and overuse) fiends as simple generally icky bugged eyed monsters or filler summoned cannon fodder without a lot of thought at what differentiates the various fiendish races other than them having bags of different immunities. I like the idea of cults of the damned, in that it clarifies how they relate to the mortal world on functional levels. I can appreciate how devils relate to the mortal world with their contracts and contract devils (the devils book does a good job of this), but I think demons/daemons/the rest could use some further thought. Demons seem to be thematically about raw temptation, but aside from the glabrezu and succubus, I'm not really sure how they carry this role out. Qlippoths seem just like summoned grim-reapers-in-abox they're so hateful of mortals (though many demons could qualify for this role as well).
Basically, as far as fiends go, the only things I'm interested really as a customer at this point is fiendish goals and plots other than "blow up the world for reason X", which can sometimes seem just academic. I'm not sure if it makes a difference in play if qlippoths, for example, want to destroy the world b/c they hate the sin that spawns demons, whereas the daemons want to destroy the world b/c they're generally nihilistic.
Perhaps, for example, while qlippoths represent physical destruction and demons represent individual, passionate, warm-blooded corruption and death, daemons could represent something of a more long-term, systemic and metaphorical corruption/death, like the quagmires of rotting societies. The bit about the Plague Horseman of the Apocalypse encouraging, for example, wide-spread madness and paranoia as a form of plague I thought was very well thought out. Or that the daemons could take the long role of encouraging destruction in the long run by creating things to help it along. Daemons seem to imply their roles as sort of the "philosophical fiends", this role could very well be played up.
Okay, so thinking about support I need to better run adventures feature the Big Ds:
1. Actual information on the lower planes. Yeah, I know, a lot of that stuff was in The Great Beyond, but because of timing you guys were awfully hands off on mechanics - and while all of the backstory and flavor is awesome, I run the game using the mechanics :) Plus, it would be cool to have lingering, nasty effects from visiting the lower planes. It's not like Abaddon should be somewhere you can just plane shift into and out of on a whim ...
2. Cults of the Damned is a truly awesome foundation for a book. I think of it as the Pathfinder equivalent to the Book of Vile Darkness, which (for me as a GM) was an awesome book.
3. "Ecology" type information like what was in chapter one of Hordes of the Abyss. You know, the cool stuff like demonic death throes, promotions, etc. Looking at the authors of that book, I think Paizo is perfectly poised to create more stuff that's just as great :)
4. The AD&D DMG (still one of the best books ever) had that awesome Appendix D for generating creatures from the lower planes. Something like this, but tweaked for the big 3 would be really cool. For example, you wouldn't really expect random devils (kinda goes contrary to the whole concept), but having minor variations on demons (similar to the tiefling variations table) would be cool.
5. More stuff like the possession rules from CoT and the devil talismans. This kind of stuff is priceless. For example, Dicefreaks had some great rules for the side effects of summoning powerful devils; lingering effects in the area, and I've stolen it and modified it to apply to demons and Far Realms creatures as well (my mixed campaign uses the Far Realms as a separate, horrific plane still).
Plus, more demons, daemons, and devils. Never enough :)
Dunno if it has already been said, but anyway... Fiendish NPC galleries: from Gharbad (yes, him), the cowardly Schir Demon, to Dumah, the blazing Paragaus herald of Xaphan, to "The Obscure Who Lies Beyond", the long imprisoned Astradaemon whose long unsatisfied hunger for souls has turned it into a voracious black hole of annihilation. And so on. Each with its own agenda and (at times millennia-long) history (possibly including eventual implications it had in Golarion).
Full stat blocks may be unnecessary; just an entry telling wether a given fiend is a typical member of its kind or has notable variations, additional abilities or weaknesses of sort.
I think there's real potential for groundbreaking & unusual takes on infernal worship. Overt, antinomian, cults that masquerade as something else, savage, and decadent...
I also think that the cities and geographies of the lower planes - we still haven't moved that far from Dante - could have some real variety and potential.
I agree with Jeff on both counts.
I'm not suggesting we model ourselves after another game, but Warhammer Fantasy RPG does a lot of effective storytelling with evil cults, and making them work right in urban areas and civilizations.
(I'm not discounting Cheliax, but that is a state sponsored and very LAWFUL religion)
That helps moves us out of the dungeons a little bit. Not that dungeons are bad, but opportunities for diversity are good.
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I also agree with Jeff on cities and geography of the lower planes. We hint and play at the economy of souls, and organization and such.. but seldom do we get a clear picture. And we haven't moved much paste Dante.
More CR4-7 foot soldiers. I hate having to throw Bearded Devils at my parties en mass simply because Imps & Lemures are wimps and Kytons aren't devils anymore :(Lemme help you out...
Yah, like Gorbacz says, but I think we've actually covered every CR for devils now. Check out the old March of the Damned here. You'll find the gylou (handmaiden devil) and puragaus (immolation devil) slot right into those CR 14 and 19 gaps... almost like someone planned it that way. ;)
Given Cacodaemon is in Bestiary 2, Cyberdemon?
Ha!
I mean. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Very cool all, and lots of food for thought. Keep it coming.
So, to drill down a bit, say we did another book on... (I'll be selfish here) devils. With all in Book of the Damned 1 about the layers of Hell and Hell's big bosses, there's really NOT a ton on gelugons and barbazus and imps and pit fiends. Should there be? Or are fiendish leaders intrinsically more interesting than their infinite mooks? Would you be interested in getting a "Devils Revisited" book that covers the highest profile devils, but would knowing that we could only do 10 devils in that format (when there's more than 20 out there) be a deal breaker? Or if we created a new format for such a "Devil Henchmen" book, what would you want to see in it?
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Well, personally I'm much bigger into Devils than Demons and don't like Daemons or Obyriths at all. So as one individual customer I'd rather have another "all devils" book than a "bit of each of the three" book -- but I think a "bit of each" would maybe sell better (not that I know anything about sales or R&D for Paizo).
That being said -- the "problem" with 2/3 of each of the Books of the Damned being "highest profile (fiends)" is that PCs don't actually ever fight, and pretty much never even encounter them. That's why an NPC Gallery or Fiends Revisited or Cults of... book is so interesting.
Asmodeus and Pazuzu and Baalzebub and Lamashtu are great -- but we (the PCs) don't fight and kill them; we fight and kill their associated cultists and fiends.
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As an editor or designer, I'd look at the Faction Guide, Rival Guide and NPC Gallery as starting points for format.
That's exactly what I'm thinking of, at least, for the kind of "Devil Henchmen" or Gallery of Fiends book were talking about here.
Very cool all, and lots of food for thought. Keep it coming.
So, to drill down a bit, say we did another book on... (I'll be selfish here) devils. With all in Book of the Damned 1 about the layers of Hell and Hell's big bosses, there's really NOT a ton on gelugons and barbazus and imps and pit fiends. Should there be? Or are fiendish leaders intrinsically more interesting than their infinite mooks? Would you be interested in getting a "Devils Revisited" book that covers the highest profile devils, but would knowing that we could only do 10 devils in that format (when there's more than 20 out there) be a deal breaker? Or if we created a new format for such a "Devil Henchmen" book, what would you want to see in it?
I don't think this is what you are looking for (since you seem to be asking about types of specific NPC types) but since the topic is up...
I would love to see a book covering more Satani....err..Diabolical henchmen (types), cults and cult organization, the infernal go-betweens (low to mid CR petitioners or servants/assassins/executioners), magic, pacts and evil tomes/items. In other words - the aspects the Diabolical as it directly affects the game world from level 1-16. Not specific NPCs per se, but types, examples templates, etc.
I guess for me my big influences were the great movies of the 70's - from the Omen (BBEG) to the Exorcist (Possession,albeit demonic) to the more exploitative witch hunter stuff: The Witch Finder General, Blood on Satan's Claw, et al. A book covering the effects of the Diabolical on society, communities and politics would be cool. Maybe a separate "Fiend Hunters guide" would also be nice.
And more fiendish templates! Fiends of all sorts corrupt the prime material plane in more ways than co-mingling blood. Their very presence would cause create all sorts of malignancy on the local environment - from animal/human mutations and defects to the dead being unquiet, to other ominous effects on nature.
I would love to be able to repeat these tropes with some extra Crypt Keeper tools:
The Evil Scion (the Omen)
The Possessed Villager (the Exorcist)
The Secret Cabal/Coven/Cult (the original Wicker Man, et al)
The Cult/Fiend Fighter (too many to name)
This may shift the infernal over to straight horror but I always felt the two went hand and claw anyway.
I'd be more for a Devils Revisited type. I want more detail on the classic, iconic, monsters.
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Agh, opportunity paralysis. A D_____ Revisited approach has a lot of appeal too. Honestly, each six page section would likely be more than what's ever been written for each of the old classic fiend types. The only downer there is that if going by the old format, as said, you get only 10.
So while all the old iconic devils would get in(with demons, might actually be harder), this means a lot of cool newcomers probably won't make it in, like handmaiden devils.
If a new format was used, what about dividing all the different demons/devils into general types according to their roles or relations, letting a few species share the same chapter and getting fleshed out together, possibly with some interrelations being developed. Something like The Lowly concerning dretches, schirs, and other guys that are at the bottom of the totem pole. Incubi and succubi could easily go together, and so on, perhaps with the big guys, mariliths and balors, getting their own individual chapters?
Wild thought, but since the back/front cover interior wouldn't have to be taken up by a new archfiend list with new domains, it could be filled with a ton of individual named fiends along with a short title summing up their reputation or to evoke some proper imagery, and a small blurb summing up their goals and what they get up to in general. Maybe with class levels slapped on a some of them? Kind of like a big collection of details that just get thrown out there in the book proper sometimes that are meant to inspire the reader to take those seeds and go wild.
Quick aside: One of my all time favorite works on fiends was a bit from Ravenloft: Van Richten's Guide to Fiends. It introduced the idea of fiendish transposition, which was both a form of possession and transportation(it was the only way for fiends to enter that setting). Basically it explained(along with a few detailed fiend-specific examples) how certain acts could leave certain individuals vulnerable to a connection to the Lower Planes and the attention of a fiend. If one latched onto them, their behavior and appearance would gradually grow more and more influenced by this being that was using their flesh and soul as a doorway into their world. It starts off small like little behavioral quirks, slight, hard-to-notice mutations, then feeling compulsions to pounce on small animals and eat them alive, scales on the back, and it then downhill from there until the fiend fully replaces the mortal, leaving its old host falling into its former place in its plane of origin. I don't think I've seen the concept visited since.
Just a clarification, there are no Obyriths in Pathfinder as that is a WOTC intellectual property. However Pathfinder has Qlippoth which would be very comparable to Obyrith.
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Just a clarification, there are no Obyriths in Pathfinder as that is a WOTC intellectual property. However Pathfinder has Qlippoth which would be very comparable to Obyrith.
Now, here comes a funny story.
Once upon a time, there was a book called "Book of Fiends" from Green Ronin. It featured a proto-demon race called qlippoth, written by some guy called Erick Mona.
Few years later, a company that once used to be the industry leader in pen and paper RPGs (Sorcerers by the Shore or something like that) hired Erick to write a book about denizens of Abyss, called "Fiendish Codex I". The Sorcerers told Erick "we want a proto-demon race there, but please don't call them qlippoth - we want you to use a made-up name 'cause we can copyright that and further our plan of dominating the universe". Erick sighed, nodded and so D&D obyriths were born.
More years passed, and Erick found himself working on some new campaign setting called Roadsearcher or whatanot. Unable to reference the obyriths for copyright reasons, he gleefully vindicated qlippoth, thus completing the circle.
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Actually a gazetteer of the lower planes would be spectacular. Even if I never use it in game.
I miss Planewalker, it had some neat little locations tucked away on the subpages.
And.
Qlippoth is a much better name than Obyrith.
Yay for circular continuity!
I thought it was James Jacobs that made the Obyriths for WotC.
I do wish JJ still had the rights to the Sibriex, 'cause damn.
Oh James did make the Obyriths while he was on Contract with WOTC doing the fiendish Codex series. Worst of all for James is he not only lost rights to use the Obyriths but also his creation Obox-ob the demon lord of vermin which was his main baddy from his homebrew setting. So unfortunately as a result there are no Obyriths in Pathfinder as they are owned by WOTC.