Spell Perfection and its modified level limits


Rules Questions


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

When Spell Perfection says "[when you cast your perfected spell] you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level" it is speaking internally (referring only to itself), right?

So after accounting for its modified level with the free metamagic feat I can still use other metamagic feats or similar effects (such as metamagic rods) as normal, without worrying about going over the modified level limit, yes?

Example:

My perfected fireball gets quicken for free. 3+4=7 which isn't above the limit of 9. I then apply Maximize, Intensify, and Empower to the spell (while also using a dazing metamagic rod) which, most of it not being free, bumps it to a 9th-level slot. I cast it and destroy my enemies. Not bad for a 9th-level slot, expensive magical rod, and a five feat investment.


Good question I'll be awaiting an answer.


No, it says total modified spell level which means after all modifications, and all metamagics are applied to the spell at the same time so you can use a quickened empowered fireball (Level 9 spell slot) with a rod to provide 1 more metamagic feat.


Yes, You generally apply modifiers in the oreder the player chooses. So Fireball (3) + quickened(4) - Spell mastery quickned (4) + Maximixe (2) + Empower (2) + Intensify (1) + dazng rod (0) = 9.


No. I'm with Michael. Total means total, and should include any other metamagic feats you're using. I *can* see the rod being added at the end, since it does not suffer the same restriction.


Majuba wrote:
No. I'm with Michael. Total means total, and should include any other metamagic feats you're using. I *can* see the rod being added at the end, since it does not suffer the same restriction.

+1

You don't get to choose the order of adding abilities, either the others are chosen first when preparing the spell, or you tack all of them on the same time when casting the spell.

So when you have an Empowered Maximized Intensified Quickened Fireball the total modified level of the spell is 13, as opposed to the actual level of the spell (lvl 3).

While it doesn't make Spell Perfection quite as good as your example, I think a lvl-15 caster (with the dazing rod) should be satisfied with being able to cast an empowered maximized intensified dazing fireball as well as a quickened intensified heigtened(+1) dazing fireball per turn, spending a lvl 5 and lvl 6 spell slot.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If we follow that you use the total modified spell level, then the metamagic feats being applied from Metamagic Rods, Spell Perfection, or from Magical Lineage does not count towards the total modified level since none of those modify the spell's effective level (they are all free).

Therefore, the aforementioned Empowered Maximized Intensified Quickened Fireball's total modified level is only 5, well below the limit of 9.

Who wrote this feat? Perhaps they could provide some input as to intent.

Sovereign Court

I'd agree that the feat is speaking internally; i.e., you may ignore the level adjustments and additional casting time from one metamagic feat you posess to your Perfected Spell, regardless of what else you do to the spell.

Note that the feat cannot be taken multiple times to use for multiple metamagics at once on one spell. A different metamagic feat that you know can be applied each time the spell is cast, however.
*edited out some junk about metamagic rods.

Spell Perfection wrote:

Spell Perfection

You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.

Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.

Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.


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Vendle wrote:
...and you cannot make metamagic effects from metamagic rods "free" unless you have that metamagic feat already (making the rod somewhat redundant in this case).

I'm afraid I don't follow. Metamagic rods never under any circumstances increase casting time or level slots used.


I beleave it's the total spell level as if the spell perfection wasn't there. (Magical lineage-1) Fireball(3)intisified(+1)empowered(+2)(Quickened+4)ending total of level 9 spell. Then subtract 4(quicken is your free) for spell perfection use a 5th level slot. When you cast it grap your (rod) maximized. There you have it a intisifed, empowered, quickend, maximized, fire ball.


Ravingdork wrote:
I'm afraid I don't follow. Metamagic rods never under any circumstances increase casting time or level slots used.

The exception is sorcerers.

Core Rulebook p. 484 wrote:
A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).


Von Marshal wrote:
I beleave it's the total spell level as if the spell perfection wasn't there. (Magical lineage-1) Fireball(3)intisified(+1)empowered(+2)(Quickened+4)ending total of level 9 spell. Then subtract 4(quicken is your free) for spell perfection use a 5th level slot. When you cast it grap your (rod) maximized. There you have it a intisifed, empowered, quickend, maximized, fire ball.

Impressive.


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Veiled Nail wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I'm afraid I don't follow. Metamagic rods never under any circumstances increase casting time or level slots used.

The exception is sorcerers.

Core Rulebook p. 484 wrote:
A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).

Now that you mention it, I do remember reading that. I had totally forgotten about it.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Von Marshal wrote:
I beleave it's the total spell level as if the spell perfection wasn't there. (Magical lineage-1) Fireball(3)intisified(+1)empowered(+2)(Quickened+4)ending total of level 9 spell. Then subtract 4(quicken is your free) for spell perfection use a 5th level slot. When you cast it grap your (rod) maximized. There you have it a intisifed, empowered, quickend, maximized, fire ball.

To date, I have not counted metamagic rods towards the level limit. I've also allowed a Magical Lineage to squeeze an extra level under the limit since it actually does modify the effective level slot of the spell.

Sovereign Court

Funny Ravingdork, I went to edit out the part I felt was confusing just as you were reading it. It looks like we're all on the same page now, though.


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Quote:
Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level.

It has to be the total level before applying Spell Perfection, or the bolded part would have no meaning. Consider:


  • Make the assumption that "total modified level" does not include the level increase from the free metamagic.
  • You can add metamagic feats to the spell up to the highest spell slot you have available. It takes that slot, and then you apply an extra free feat on top.
  • The highest spell slot you have available, ever, is 9th level.
  • Therefore, the most metamagic you could put on a spell would bring it to 9th level, then add the free one. (Rods ignored).
  • Therefore, wording that limits the level to 9th is redundant.

Obviously, you can argue that redundancy is not uncommon in the rules, but it's usually because there's a reading which would break it. There's nothing about the chain of logic above which would require it to be reiterated, so it makes much more sense to assume that the other reading (where the free feat counts towards the "total modified level"), which would require it to be there, is the correct one.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There's logic there.


Veiled Nail wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I'm afraid I don't follow. Metamagic rods never under any circumstances increase casting time or level slots used.

The exception is sorcerers.

Core Rulebook p. 484 wrote:
A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).

I never noticed that passage.


I have a question about Spell Perfection.
I cast Snowball as a sorcerer. I have the feat Spell Perfection.
I do the following.
Snowball (lv1). Add the metafeat Maximize Spell (+3) this raises it to a lv 4 spell that only takes a level 1 slot and normal casting time. I then add Intensified spell +1 lv, and Empower Spell +1 then Rime Spell +1 total spell level 7 cast as a level 4 spell and standard metamagic casting time. With me so far? My question the about the last part of Spell Perfection, "In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as
Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell."

Maximize, Intensified, empower and rime are all feats, and Intensified give a set numerical bonus (in this case 5). Does this mean that I can now cast this spell as listed it would do 15d6 (BTW snowball is a level 1 conj spell no SR and save to negate a status but not damage from people of the north), +50% and assume all dice were maxed, with the rime effect, which is ... 15d6= 90+50%= 135 point of damage no save for damage no spell resistance as a level 4 spell?
Thanks
I ramble sorry.


Ok looking a bit more into this I see max and empower do not stack. So my math reads it as 5d5 snowball with the max limit raised to max 15 (double the bonus from intensified.) so 15d6 max = 90 + (15d6/2) with the rime effect and the save for the spell. No spell resistance and no save for half. Ya it only effect one target, but on average it's 90 + 3.5x15 or 142.5 hp damage with a for save and a one round entangle. now at the level to cast this unless a one is rolled they will save, so it's just 142.5 hp and entangled for one round with no saves or spell resistance and although can not be cast in a antimagic field, it can be fired into one as it is a instant conj spell.


Spell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply
a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.

Okay... gonna take my best shot at this one... <ques Perry Mason music>

"without affecting its level or casting time"
Seems like most people are agreeing on this one. One feat is just that one feat. Therefore since it does NOT affect the level, you could cast a Quickened Fireball as a 3rd level spell. If you also had Intensify Spell and Magical Lineage, then you could cast a 20d6 Fireball as a swift action and still use only that 3rd level spell slot.

"as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level."
My above example seems to satisfy everyone's above criteria as the TOTAL level, no matter how you look at it, never goes above 8th. Now for the part everyone seems to be ignoring:

"does not use a spell slot"
There are the key words to this entire agreement. "Does not use". So, by a strict interpretation of what Paizo printed, you could cast an Intensified (+0 made free by Magical Lineage), Quickened (made free by Spell Perfection, Empowered (+2 Levels), Maximized (+3 Levels) and Reach (+1 Level) and use up a ninth level spell slot. That would seem to be a "total modified level" to me.

Is it worth it? That is FIVE feats in metamagic feats alone plus one for Spell Perfection makes that six feats. Is it gross? It should be after taking that many feats AND getting to a min. of 17th level for this priviledge. Oh... want to be able to use it on creatures that are immune to fire? Gonna have to take Elemental Spell. Even if you don't take Reach Spell, its still going to take a TON of work to get all that stacked up just so you can do it 4 times (seriously doubtful most characters get a bonus 9th level spell slot) in one day.

Got high level characters that start doing this a lot? Do what I do... give it to the bad guys. What part of Mwahahaha don't your players understand? :D (inspired by a t-shirt at GenCon). Come on guys... if your players find something good and juicy like this, thank them and use it against them.

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