Better yet, Book of the Sadistic. Would love to see one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*I* would love three or four Books of the Blessed. Let's all hope.
In the meantime, there is: Book of Beasts: Monsters of the Shadow Plane. It contains several new Kytons, Psychopomps, dark fey, and undead. LOTS OF UNDEAD. Plus there is Shadowsfall: Shadow Plane Player's Guide that will be coming out in the not too distant future, which includes details on the Kyton City. Later on, we've got Shadowsfall: Shadow Plane Gazetteer coming out.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
For right or wrong, better or worse, here's the current in-house thinking on more Books of the Damned: Exhausting. It took us three years and was no mean feat to reach the first obvious point of completion by covering devils, demons, and daemons. The idea of opening that door back up and committing to more in the series when the races/topics being covered have - arguably - less appeal, makes us more than a little wary. So, question one, would Book of the Damned 4: Kytons sell? 5: Qlippoth? 6: Rakshasa? 7: Asuras? 8: Divs? 9: Oni? While I know I'd love to see any of those books, and I'm sure most of the folks who read this would too, it's likely that many of our players don't even know what a div is, so probably aren't clambering for 64 pages all about them. There's also a weird sense that this might be gilding the lily - I mean, if we haven't even done a book on aberrations yet, is it time to get into the second and third tiers of the evil planes?
We've talked this around in around, maybe we do whole books on these races, maybe we do compilations by alignment or like agendas or favorite colors, whatever. Maybe there's more to be said on those first three races from the first three books - there's still not more than a column worth of text explaining the big differences between a cornugon and a pit fiend, after all. Etc. Etc. Etc. We're amenable to the idea, disposed to it even, but we just haven't hit on the that one singular thing that screams "Yeah, we HAVE to do this and we HAVE to do it THIS WAY."
So that's been a discussion we've had several times and will sure have more, but what it comes down to for now is that we have no solid plans for upcoming entries into the Book of the Damned sub-series.
That said, we've still got lots to play with as far as fiends and the Book of the Damned itself goes. The upcoming Innser Sea Bestiary will have a good deal of love for evil outsiders (and tons of other besties you know the names of but not much more). Also check out Artifacts and Legends (by yours truly) for more details on the history, powers, and pursuers of the Book of the Damned, as well as our first name drop (should it make it through editing) of the book's goodly analog. Tabris's goal wasn't just to chart the evil planes after all.
Which makes an excellent segue into the next topic about a good themed Book of the Damned, though I'm going to largely ignore that. For now: top men on the job, yada yada...
In the meantime, there is: Book of Beasts: Monsters of the Shadow Plane. It contains several new Kytons, Psychopomps, dark fey, and undead...
Also totally true! In fact seeing a new psychopomp in there (as both kytons and psychopomps are kind of pet races of mine) got more than a few giggles out of me. It also means that we'll be dancing around using that psychopomp's name (I believe its the memitim) for a while to come since Dale and crew did such a bang-up job! (So Check It Out!) We probably will do our own down the line here, for completion sake, or see how that one and the OGL might let it mesh with what we've got and got coming. We'll see!
Which makes an excellent segue into the next topic about a good themed Book of the Damned, though I'm going to largely ignore that. For now: top men on the job, yada yada...
*ears perk*
That would be awesome if you guys ever did that :)
since Dale and crew did such a bang-up job! (So Check It Out!)
... *mind blown* You, sir, just made my day! Thank you for the compliment!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well...there is always hope that in the three-ish years it takes to finish 3 volumes of Book of the Blessed, you will change your mind :)
But seriously, Book of the Damned 3 was one of the best campaign setting books I have read, maybe only surpassed by Distant Worlds. I Definitely think that at least a book on Kytons would be awesome, although I can understand concern that you might have considerably less success the farther you move into the "niche" evils. Hopefully we will see some love for Kytons in at least some future APs or other setting material.
Maybe you could do one book encompassing all the "minor" evil races.
And THANK YOU for the "Books of the Blessed" (or however they will be named) news!
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
And THANK YOU for the "Books of the Blessed" (or however they will be named) news!
Weeeeeell, don't get too excited yet. We've made no announcements about such a product, we've only discussed such a thing. And personally, in the same way that I don't think books all about divs and asuras would be as "OH WOW! Those Guys!" as books about devils and demons, agathions and azatas fall into a similar camp. I think many would be hard pressed to name all four (yes four) primary species of good outsiders.
So this is another topic that's going to take some mulling, but right now I think we're more disposed to it and similar topics than we ever have been before.
And as another note, it will not be called "Book of the Blessed." My biggest peeve with dichotomous series like these is that in nearly every instance I can think of the evil book sounds HARDCORE and the good book sounds soooooo wussy. If we ever do a goodly book, its name will be appropriately metal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
... *mind blown* You, sir, just made my day! Thank you for the compliment!
Well, it's well deserved. Keep up the awesome work!
Book of the Kick-Ass and take names a.k.a. The forces of GOOD!!! ~grins~ That works for me.
it hurts
it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts
Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss! Ness Ness Ness Ness Ness Ness Ness Ness Ness Ness Ness Ness Ness Ness Ness ...
I think many would be hard pressed to name all four (yes four) primary species of good outsiders.
Agathions, archons, azata... Uh. I had to check because I forgot that angels are an actual subtype instead of just generic term equivalent to celestial.
While asuras, divs and onis are of minor interest to me, rakshasa and qlippoth would be nice to see. Well, qlippoths could be placed together with proteans (and maybe axiomites) under Elders Of The Planes. Inevitables could be also in that book as extension of axiomites as it would be hard to make a book about them. Unless they would be put in book with various constructs instead of one of the Outsider books.
I dunno, I think Qlippoth are actually improved by remaining mysterious, although I do think it would be nice to get some new types.
Hence you guys see how this discussion becomes more complicated than "We should do a book on devils, a book on demons, and a book on daemons!"
It's a sticky wicket, but we'll keep working on it.
Well, qlippoths could be placed together with proteans (and maybe axiomites) under Elders Of The Planes.
This is brilliant, btw.
I agree w/ Wes and presumably others of the Paizo staff that devoting an entire book to one outsider race from this point onward might be a bit risky. But thematic compilations (2-4 in 1 book) I think could do very well. Drejk's example above is a particularly good example of that.
That said, if there was going to be just 1 book remaining that handled only 1 outsider race, I think qlippoths would have to be it.
Maybe Paizo should use SurveyMonkey to put it to a fan vote, so you can at least gauge salability?
And for the 4 celestial types, I think you put out 2 books, w/ 2 of each in them. 3+ in one book shortchanges them, while 1 per book might be a tough sell, as not everyone is into planar races (crazy, I know!).
Of all the things Paizo does well--and that's a long list--the planar stuff, whether that be the 3 Books of the Damned, The Great Beyond, or Distant Worlds, is phenomenally well-done, IMO. People will b~%#! about the rules and crunch; in fact, we have whole sub forums set up for that. Not so much on the "fluff", where Paizo has consistently excelled. Put that together w/ some fantastic artwork, and for me at least, it's gamer heaven.
Uh, archon, inevitables and kytons in one book about Immortals/Spirits Of Order?
Agathions, Angels and Azata in Holy Spirits Of The Planes?
Well, like Wes said, I wouldn't mind seeing more on Demons and Devils, and would love to see these returned to at some point. One 64 page each just serves as an appetizer!
Well IIRC the APs are going to start moving into Demigods, so that would be one source to print out new information on specific Demon lords and Devil princes. I kind of have trouble seeing another book in the Book of the damned series focused exclusively on devils and demons.
Maybe someday we can get a hardcover Great Beyond Book...which would also provide a great opportunity to cover some of the less loved extraplanar races.
Well, like Wes said, I wouldn't mind seeing more on Demons and Devils, and would love to see these returned to at some point. One 64 page each just serves as an appetizer!
More devils, demons, and daemons, huh? So what do you still want to see? (Hit the link.)
|
I like qlippoth tooooo much to ever settle for a book that bundles them with anything else.
This please, qlippoth give me all the fun of cthulhu wrapped up in a planar ally package. Also it ties nicely into my groups magus who just discovered her qlippothic heritage (I asked her if I could give her her family name when she created it, I told her it was Whateley, she still doesn't know why I grin whenever it comes up ^-^).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well if I was going to rank them:
1) Kytons
2) Demodands and Thanotic Titans (since they go together)
3) Qlippoth
4) Divs
5) Asuras
6) Rakshasas
7) Oni
Honestly I would probably buy any of those books, I just like the flavor of the first three the most.
My ranking is:
1. Qlippoths
2. More qlippoths
3. Qlippoths.
4. Qli... Rakshasa (that would be useful for Eberron).
5. Kytons.
6. Demodands.
7. Asuras, Divs and Oni.
I like qlippoth tooooo much to ever settle for a book that bundles them with anything else.
I would love to see them bundled with Proteans and Axiomites... We are speaking about 256 page hardcover, right?
I like qlippoth tooooo much to ever settle for a book that bundles them with anything else.I would love to see them bundled with Proteans and Axiomites... We are speaking about 256 page hardcover, right?
I'd love to see more proteans (and axiomites, because they're like peanut butter and jelly, if peanut butter tried to eat jelly or turn it into marshmellow while singing).
I'm horribly biased about more proteans though, just like James and qlippoths (and I'd love to see him explore qlippoths some more). :D
Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like qlippoth tooooo much to ever settle for a book that bundles them with anything else.I would love to see them bundled with Proteans and Axiomites... We are speaking about 256 page hardcover, right?
I could fill a 256 page hardcover book about qlippoth stuff.
But even if I couldn't... I'd not want to mix qlippoth and other creatures, because that's frustrating.
|
And as another note, it will not be called "Book of the Blessed." My biggest peeve with dichotomous series like these is that in nearly every instance I can think of the evil book sounds HARDCORE and the good book sounds soooooo wussy. If we ever do a goodly book, it's name will be appropriately metal.
That's one of the many reasons I'm a big proponent for dark/scary/ugly/alien/savage/weird/etc.-yet-still-GOOD celestials, to help fight the stereotypes related to that perception.(ex: Good outsiders are boring/bland/wussy/etc.)
If books on good outsiders can recapture what was lost with the zoveri and busen there's no way I wouldn't be able to throw my money at it fast enough to fully express how I felt about it.
(books for kytons/asuras/divs/qlippoths are fine too!)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My current ranking for the fiend-types seen in this thread:
1. Kytons
2. Qlippoth
3. Nightshades (Technically Undead, but they serve an evil-outsider-type role and I'd like to see more of them)
4. Asuras
5. Demodands and Thanotic Titans
6. Oni
7. Rakshasha
8. Divs
That said, I like the suggestion of books for non-evil outsiders also. I support the addition of those to the mix, with particular interest in Inevitables and Archons. Kytons remain at the top of my overall list at present, though.
I second Mikaze's request for alien-looking celestials of some sort. They'd fill an interesting cosmological niche that's currently open.
I actually don't mind if the Kytons don't get their own book... any time soon. I'd really just love to get more and different variations of these creatures. They're twistedly fun.
When I searched for "demon lord" on Pathfinder Wiki, the third result I got was "James Jacobs"... So much for His love for qlippoths! Damned turncoat!
I'd rather have a book about Kytons before one about Qlippoth. Then Divs and Asuras.
Pinhead(movie villian) remind me of kytons. I have thought about making one based off of him for my home game, assuming I can get enough players anyway. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd be intrigued with the Qlippoth, but I would like to see along with Paizo's take on Qlippothic Magick Cosmology with its own Infernal Sephiroth.
Although I suspect that Asmodeus may have his own power play on this "matter"...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'll echo my preferences in the other thread that many of the various lesser fiendish races are as of now indistinct to me from each other (with most being variants on "I wanna destroy the world and/or all their is").
Kytons are something of an exception because they have the whole "reaching perfection through suffering" going (the thing here being pain rather than simple death). Disciple and endurance are usually seen as good things, so to me these as themes of evil are a little more interesting to see than general wanton destruction. You can be a little bit more tricky in playing with kyton-ish theme when they overboard and when self denial/suffering becomes an end and of itself rather than a means to achieve greater things, liking building a better society, for example.
That being said, Oni, rakshasa,half-fiends and other similar evil NPC outsiders are interesting to me because, unlike the rest of the various outsider races, they are born of mortal man and live directly among us. They interact with us directly, either as gods or in the shadows, without needing to be summoned or called. This makes inserting them much more easier as they have built in venues for exploitation. Furthermore, fiends like rakshasas are interesting b/c of their patterns of reproduction aren't like mortal kinds, but yet they are (ie, individuals rakshasas being reincarnated over time in different mortal bodies, or oni manifesting in mortal flesh). I think you can do a lot thematically with stuff like this, dread pacts with far off, unknown dread beings (the barren mother or infertile father who would give anything for childen, for example) yet keeping the focus on human, mortal concerns that change the world rather than retreating to the outer planes whenever high levels roll around. If one were to do any more Books of the Damned, I'd suggest one called "Flesh of Man" or something of the like focusing on these native outsiders who don our very skin and bones.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think we all know where I stand.
Wrong thoughts, wrong words, wrong deeds.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kytons are something of an exception because they have the whole "reaching perfection through suffering" going (the thing here being pain rather than simple death). Disciple and endurance are usually seen as good things, so to me these as themes of evil are a little more interesting to see than general wanton destruction. You can be a little bit more tricky in playing with kyton-ish theme when they overboard and when self denial/suffering becomes an end and of itself rather than a means to achieve greater things, liking building a better society, for example.
This is actually a big part of why Kytons are at the top of my list right now. I can't help but imagine them as extremely twisted defenders of existence, because without that, you can't have sensation. And pain proves you exist, therefore... Kind of played with that with one Zon-Kuthonite NPC ally in a campaign. When confronted with a demilich, she had a pretty good freakout over the prospect of tangling with it because of what they could do(hell, she had the actual players taking it so seriously that they took the thing out in one round, pouring everything they had into it).
It's the general twistedness of it all that makes them interesting. In their own warped way, they love mortals. And they want to show that love. They'll keep them safe from destruction, all they have to do is embrace the one truth of the universe.
Maybe they really do see themselves as saving the multiverse, either using their methods to guards against nothingness, or to make its inhabitants stronger in order to endure something else they may know about. Something Z-K might have learned about during his ill-fated walkabout.
Or maybe ZK's kytons are possessed of many of hte same fundamental qualities as Shelyn's angels, but gone horrifically wrong and bent in all the worst ways. Love and devotion turned poisonous, and they adhere to it like law.
So many angles to play with, so many of them potentially tragic, possibly even perversely sympathetic from certain angles, but also @#$%ing terrifying.
"We have such wonders to show you, if only you could see. We can help you. Your eyes are in the way..."
And as another note, it will not be called "Book of the Blessed." My biggest peeve with dichotomous series like these is that in nearly every instance I can think of the evil book sounds HARDCORE and the good book sounds soooooo wussy. If we ever do a goodly book, it's name will be appropriately metal.
What about "Book of the Ascended", "Book of the Enlightened" or "Book of the Radiant/Shining"?
Pinhead (movie villian) remind me of kytons. I have thought about making one based off of him for my home game, assuming I can get enough players anyway. :)
Check out our work on Zon-Kuthon in Pathfinder #11, the kyton race overview in Bestiary 3, and then check out the works of Clive Barker. You'll find no coincidences.
I'd be intrigued with the Qlippoth, but I would like to see along with Paizo's take on Qlippothic Magick Cosmology with its own Infernal Sephiroth.
Although I suspect that Asmodeus may have his own power play on this "matter"...
If you're interested in an infernal sephiroth, let me direct your research toward Book of the Damned one (specifically the pages themed to be directly from the Book of the Damned) and then to Distant Worlds. Turns out those devils are sneaky, patient... and plotting.
What about "Book of the Ascended", "Book of the Enlightened" or "Book of the Radiant/Shining"?
MORE METAL! I also ditched the "Book of that" convention.
Fires of Heaven? Actually, no. That's a Wheel of Time book.
Erm... Champions of Purity?
Bad*ss Champions of the Righteous Fury?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Children of the Sun
Ok the song isn't really metal by modern conventions.
I want Qlippoth, there is something there, something just primal that needs it's own book.
I also want Proteans and Axiomites, the law/chaos thing has more possibilities than the 3Ds for my games.
The Titans could be cool as well, all together still brooding in their cold war.
But I'd like Genies as well. And the Celestial races, not as Sissies but as the badasses of creation, the things that actually keep all that nihilism in check. Since there is no "true neutral" race it would have to be the angelic races that philosophically keep everything in motion. No light without dark etc. That's a theme that hasn't been delved into enough, the absolutes who recognize that somewhere a compromise has to be made to perpetuate existence.
I mean a Solar is scary, but a solar that recognizes that sacrifices must be made is enough to make Epic games Epic. And that's the issue with these types of things, mechanical silliness at the top end.