The group I run has had its gnome sorcerer be reincarnated into a human. He doesn't like this and wants to go back to being a gnome and is considering what magic can help him. The group is only level 9-10 and have limited access to wealth and spellcasters, so I'm trying to think of what are his options.
Also what are the ramifications and possible consequences? If he has Polymorph followed up with Permanency cast on him can Dispel Magic effects end it and return him to human form.
Any help or thoughts would be much appreciated. Cheers.
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The group I run has had its gnome sorcerer be reincarnated into a human. He doesn't like this and wants to go back to being a gnome and is considering what magic can help him. The group is only level 9-10 and have limited access to wealth and spellcasters, so I'm trying to think of what are his options.
Also what are the ramifications and possible consequences? If he has Polymorph followed up with Permanency cast on him can Dispel Magic effects end it and return him to human form.
Any help or thoughts would be much appreciated. Cheers.
With limited wealth it kind of sucks but you could just keep stabbing him and re-incarnating him until he gets where he wants to be, then cast restoration on him to remove the negative levels.
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Polymorph is not a valid spell to use in conjunction with Permanency. As an aside, spells extended via Permanency are subject to Dispel Magic.
To be returned to their old form via by the book spell casting your looking at either Wish or Miracle to get it done. I suggest you tell your friend to speak to the GM about some kind of quest that they can go on to regain their gnomishness. Turn it into something that can drive the story a bit and make things interesting for everyone. Maybe a jaunt back into the first world for some dangerous adventuring. Until then it's unlikely that even a Hat of Disguise would be very useful given that a gnome is usually a lot more then a foot shorter compared to your average human.
If your playing in Golarion you could always remind your friend's character that they are no longer subject to the Bleaching, so that's a plus.
I really hope the keep stabbing him thing is a joke... >.>
Per the rules, you can only make a dispellable solution, without requirering a Miracle or Wish spell, or an large amount of gold by using Ashiels solution.
Going RAW the only permanent polymorph you can use to change him into a gnome is polymorph any object.
I suggest you make them a quest to return him to his original form.
Some ideas could be:
- Since reincarnation is a druidy (or witchy) thing, they need to find just the person who knows enough about reincarnation to undo it. That should be a challenge in itself, and earning the trust and help of said person should be another.
- To get in touch with his true self, he needs to seek out his gnomish roots. With the fey connection of the race, the key to returning him to gnomishness could be found in the fey-inhabited wilds. Yet the danger of loosing himself entirely to his fey-side could be there.
- Being a sorcerer, his bloodline could be a related to getting his true form back. The nature of this would depend on bloodline in question.
Or some combination thereof. Depending on how you, and your player, feel about making significant character changes, this might give an opportunity to turn his character upside down, for example changing his bloodline. As a player and GM, I would like such unforseen consequences, but it is hardly everybody who would agree.
Polymorph is not a valid spell to use in conjunction with Permanency. As an aside, spells extended via Permanency are subject to Dispel Magic.
To be returned to their old form via by the book spell casting your looking at either Wish or Miracle to get it done. I suggest you tell your friend to speak to the GM about some kind of quest that they can go on to regain their gnomishness. Turn it into something that can drive the story a bit and make things interesting for everyone. Maybe a jaunt back into the first world for some dangerous adventuring. Until then it's unlikely that even a Hat of Disguise would be very useful given that a gnome is usually a lot more then a foot shorter compared to your average human.
If your playing in Golarion you could always remind your friend's character that they are no longer subject to the Bleaching, so that's a plus.
I really hope the keep stabbing him thing is a joke... >.>
A bit more serious than one might think. If for some reason you just really hated your body and had ready access to re-incarnate, you could keep killing yourself and being reincarnated. It's definitely an extreme gamble that you'll get the exact body you want, which would cost tons in resources to keep pulling off (but some big bad evil guys are probably fine with doing this).
Personally, if I was the GM, I'd allow someone to cast limited wish prior to re-incarnation to get the body they wished (with miracle and the like used to change somebody's current body), since that seems in keeping with the spells and their general power. It's not RAW however.
Racial identity is more than cosmetic. These are "real" races after all, not just skin colours.
That's just insane. Who'd want to adventure with someone so unstable that they commit suicide over and over again just because their too tall or their ears aren't pointy enough? Absolutely terrifying.
Probably someone who would hang out with people who fight things that will melt you into a puddle of goo for no other reason than to make more riches than they already have.
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That's just insane. Who'd want to adventure with someone so unstable that they commit suicide over and over again just because their too tall or their ears aren't pointy enough? Absolutely terrifying.
Ride the Suicide Train with Sir Richard Burton.
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That's just insane. Who'd want to adventure with someone so unstable that they commit suicide over and over again just because their too tall or their ears aren't pointy enough? Absolutely terrifying.
It's called Body Dysmorphia. And IRL, people pay more for body mods with more side effects, less effectiveness and a lower success rate than serial reincarnations would have in Golarion. And most of them don't come across as unstable.
This is probably going to be more deep than the usual D&D game should go- but.
two things.
1) race. No matter what we do to ourselves cosmetically we're still human.
You can't go do the doctor and turn yourself into a lizard man and no matter what some of those folks think, facial implants do not turn them into a cat. This makes it distincly different than reincarnate.
with reincarnation you are literally the new race. Alot of what you used to be (and loved, and wanted to be-presumably) is gone. Think of the average gnome and just his clothes. His entire wardrobe doesn't fit.
His family isn't even likely to believe he's telling the truth.
"suuure you are Bob. pft Bob is dead, you are just trying to steal from us! kill the big folk! Rawwrs!".
2) We hold suicide in the regard that it is because its it. the finale, tha. end. Whether you are religious or not everyone pretty much regards Suicide as the end of the "you" as we know it- at least as far as our ability to detect you is concerned.
Its also permament, irreversable, and all that.
Inside a world where you literally can be standing in front of someone who can say "SHAZAM!" and bring you back- I'm not entirely sure there would be any sort of insanity or even stigma on a reincarnated person choosing this method to get the body they wanted.
Extreme? sure. but to slap them as insane? not so sure.
Given the lengths that some folks go to in order to max those stats I could definately see an extreme barbarian voluntarily failing a save or two in order to try and come back as a gnoll (+4str/+2con) or even a bugbear (+4str/+2dex/+2con). Heck for 4/2/2 I could see someone spending the limited wish or even wish- those are some big ole stats. Just strap on a hat of disguise and never look back.
The point being-
its very easy for us, from our view point in our world- to forget that *their* view point is very very different.
"aww crap I came back as a human! quick- cast phantasmal killer on me so we can try again. Ok thanks."
I can definately see someone doing this to get back to their "core" race after being changed into some do-hickey by reincarnation. Especially if that core race is something relatively common on the charts.
Magic is magic. We can't use our own ideas of the world and place them on our characters and expect it to work in such a world as theirs.
-S
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This sounds like a great plot hook for a side adventure to get changed back into a gnome.
Or have them find a maximized reincarnate scroll to have cast on him next time he dies. Since maximized states that it "All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized" and the variable, numeric effect of reincarnate is the random table....
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As to the serial reincarnation solution: This only mostly works. The spell does not guarantee that you look like you if you come back as your original race. People might not recognize you. You would still require Wish or Miracle to get past that fantasy iris-scanning security system without reprogramming it.
That's just insane. Who'd want to adventure with someone so unstable that they commit suicide over and over again just because their too tall or their ears aren't pointy enough? Absolutely terrifying.Ride the Suicide Train with Sir Richard Burton.
Even Burton had to get off that train.
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This sounds like a great plot hook for a side adventure to get changed back into a gnome.
Or have them find a maximized reincarnate scroll to have cast on him next time he dies. Since maximized states that it "All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized" and the variable, numeric effect of reincarnate is the random table....
That is both devious and stupid, depending on how well you've bribed your DM.
Cheers for all the replies. Reading through the replies has been thought provoking, inspiring on a creative level and a little disturbing. :-)
I'm the GM so I guess all options are on the table. In saying that for the last decade we've played a 1 rez/raise/reincarnate per character rule as we didn't want death to be a trivial thing. So we won't be doing the stabby, reincarnate, rinse and repeat until get desired result option.
I like the idea of having him earn his return to "gnomeness" through a quest/side adventure. Its got me thinking about using Neil Spicer's Realm of the Fellnight Queen in a sort of ritual that connects to the dreamworld. The group would need to beat the module for the gnome to regain his "gnomeness".
Would allow me to lift the interaction with some NPCs that are currently very much in the background at this stage. Could also use it as a carrot to lure the PCs in a direction to get to a sacred site where this ritual would need to be done. And a mystical ritual into the dreamworld fits in with the primal supernatural flavour I've got going in the Mwangi Expanse.
Cheers folks.
If the GM has access to the Savage species book from 3.5 there is a section on it that actually covers the kind of race changing you might want out of a quest type thing he could look into.
He wants to be a Gnome not a human.
Though I still think your losing the skill points and the feat you got from being a human.
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The real question is WHY he doesnt want to be a gnome... it is just about as good a result a sorc could hope for. He doesnt lose his racial stat (assuming he pumped cha) and gained gnome stats... he doesnt lose his 1 extra feat or skill point a level, as that is a byproduct of human ingenuity and the constant want to learn, not based on physical ability. He gains +1 ac, and +1 to hit for being small. Etc etc... humans being reincarnated really dont lose much of anything at all, and can gain quite a bit in return.
If they are dead set on it, a miracle is the best way to go about regaining their form.
My dm allowed me to use limited wish in conjunction with reincarnate to choose race, became a bugbear b/c he was going EK, so the stats and nat ac went a long way, we stopped playing that campaign shortly thereafter so i cant tell you what impact it really had on the game.
Reincarnate is pretty darn cheap, i could definitely see nobles, and great thieves/assassins using it to their advantage... the former for vanity, the latter for anonymity.
He wants to be a gnome again. He was a gnome and was reincarnated to a human.
It could be something as simple as the player likes gnomes (player preference) , or the character dislikes being human (role-playing reasons).
I can definitely see how a character's "New Race" would affect their willingness to return from the dead. By RAW this information would not be available (IIRC all you get is alignment of resurrector), but a kind GM would allow the target to see what they would come back as, and refuse. This would avoid the whole "Just kill me and try again" problem.
I can see it going either way since it says you keep those things but it also says you gain all abilities associtated with the new race.
In fact it never says you lose the feature from your old race at all.
Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is reincarnated. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be reincarnated). A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being reincarnated. A spellcasting creature that doesn't prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell.
Strangly i looks like per RAW (which requires a bit of rule Zero) you only change physical ability scores and gain the new races abiliites.
The reincarnated creature gains abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn't automatically speak the language of the new form
None of his favorite clothes would fit anymore ;)
For that matter he couldn't fit in his house!!!
LOTS of reasons a Gnome wouldn't want to be a human ;)
I would vote AGAINST the skill points and Feats altering from a Reincarate. Mostly due to a logistics nightmare.
If I was a human who spent his feats as prerequisites to build up a feat tree... died at level 7 and came back as a gnome... then the idea of losing my 1st level feat and screwing over my whole chain would NOT appeal to me.
Also not a fan of losing ANY kind of 'Knowledge'. If I trained for combat expertise, then I should have it regardless of the body that I'm in. Same with skills...
For that matter, If I turned INTO a human...I still did all my learning as a gnome, so theres no justifyable reason that I should know MORE as human ;)