Dazed seems to be on of those debated conditions.
Long story short, are you immune to Dazed condition if you.
A. Are immune to Stun.
B. Are immune to mind effects.
C. Are immune to enchantments spells.
My DM does not like my Shield Slam, from Complete warrior, Charge, on hit that deals damage (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level+your Str modifier) Dazed unless immune to critical.
Since Dazed is an entirely different condition from stunned, and the spell daze and becoming dazed are two different things, but I think other reasons are at play here as well, but to stay on track, what is Dazed, and why are you not immune to it?
First, it's your own GM's fault for allowing D&D material in Pathfinder. Though they are relatively compatible, Pathfinder wasn't balanced with D&D material in mind.
Second, no, none of that makes you immune. Only being immune to dazed makes you immune to the dazed condition (unless specified otherwise as seems to be the case with your feat).
Only being immune to dazed makes you immune to the dazed condition (unless specified otherwise as seems to be the case with your feat).
Ravingdork has it precisely correct.
So should I switch it out for everyones sake? regardless though, he thinks dazed itself is broken, as there doesn't seem to be a "counter" to it.
Also, would you consider that feat too much then?
What are you doing that's so bad.
Charging in hitting a single target and dazing them. (i don't know the feat so a type out or link would be appreciated)
You are locking down one target, if it's the meatbag like a fighter or ogre your probably FAILING because i assume it's a fort save. If it's a caster your doing this to, your dm needs to protect them better because you could just as easily be charging a power attacking great sword.
I (emphasis on I) don't see a problem.
but without the write up of the feat and general knowledge of the situations i cant be sure.
By the RAW and RAI, Daze is it's own condition. BUT on a case by case basis, i, as a dm MAY rule it as null against something with stun immunity.
The only thing other than daze immunity that would (possibly) help is a freedom of movement type effect. You'd still be unable to take any actions (including a move action), but any movement that can be done without the use of any sort of action, such as a 5 ft step, might be possible. If your DM interpreted FoM so, attacks of opportunity would also be possible, as they are not actions, too.
(there's about to be a huge debate up in here about the "miscellaneous actions" section in the combat rules, just a heads up. ;) )
And your feat is not broken, it's silly the DM is so bothered by it. A wizard can just go around and use Color Spray for 1 round stuns. Lower DC, but hits an area, isn't restricted to charging (which can be very easy to foil), and doesn't cost a feat. Yes, 1 wizard spell known out of his 500 or whatever should not be considered of the same value as a feat. There, I said it.
What level are you? If you're 12+, just grab the PF-created Dazing Assault feat, start using it with your AoOs, and see if the DM finds that more tolerable. :p
[Fighter Bonus Feat, General]
SHIELD SLAM [GENERAL] You can use your shield to daze your opponent.
Prerequisite
Improved Shield Bash (PH) , Shield Charge (CW) , base attack bonus +6,
Benefit
As a full-round action or as a charge action, you may make an attack with your shield against an opponent. If you hit, you force the target damaged by this attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level+your Str modifier) in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is dazed for 1 round (until just before your next action). Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be dazed.
Special
A fighter may select Shield Slam as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Compare that to Pathfinder's Shield Slam:
In the right position, your shield can be used to send opponents flying.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
[Fighter Bonus Feat, General]
SHIELD SLAM [GENERAL] You can use your shield to daze your opponent.
Prerequisite
Improved Shield Bash (PH) , Shield Charge (CW) , base attack bonus +6,
Benefit
As a full-round action or as a charge action, you may make an attack with your shield against an opponent. If you hit, you force the target damaged by this attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level+your Str modifier) in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is dazed for 1 round (until just before your next action). Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be dazed.
Special
A fighter may select Shield Slam as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Yeah, no offence to you or your dm but that feat is lack-luster at best.
i would have 0 problem with it in my game.it's a full round action for 1 attack. and you'll most likely be hitting the big heavy guys with it who'll save out most of the time.
Your dm seems to be making a mountain out of a mole hill. Can this feat be annoying? Probably. Is it the end-all-beat-all? No.
D&D's shield slam is broken, not for what it does, but because it comes into play too early. Pathfinder is much more balanced. It expects fighters to get Dazing melee attacks at 11th-level at the earliest, AND you suffer a hefty penalty on the attack roll made to daze, AND the DC is lower.
See below for what I mean:
You can daze foes with wild attacks.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –5 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to daze opponents you hit with your melee attacks for 1 round, in addition to the normal damage dealt by the attack. A successful Fortitude save negates the effect. The DC of this save is 10 + your base attack bonus. You must choose to use this feat before making the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn.
RD, it is not broken. It has far more restrictions than Dazing Assault (including use of shield as weapon, they ARE inferior weapons without all the heavy feat and magic item investment I'm sure you're going to counter my statement with an example of).
The DCs are not significantly different barring very high strength scores. DA at level 11 is DC 21, SS at level 11 is DC 15 +str mod. DA at level 20 is DC 30, SS at level 20 is DC 20 +str mod.
The -5 penalty is not significant by that level on your primary attack bonus for a full BAB character. it will crush your iteratives, but you can just not use it when you full attack (shield slam never even gives you the option to full attack with it to begin with) if you don't want. And it works best on AoOs, both because those use highest BAB and because they interrupt the triggering action. In other words, a dazing AoO will likely end up robbing the foe of much or all of his turn. I really cannot describe how much more potent that is than just having a single attack that takes up your entire action to potentially daze one foe.
And again, 5 levels before that feat, sorcs and wizards are tossing color spray around, possibly at more than one foe at a time.
It's...honestly really difficult fighting back my laughter at your continued assertions that 3E combat feats are broken. Just...so funny...
Oh I'm well aware of the differences StreamOfTheSky, and you're right. At 11th-level, Dazing Assault is clearly superior. You know what though? D&D's Shield Slam has been allowing the fighter to walk over many enemies for the last FIVE levels!
Sorry, but compared to things like Vital Strike or Improved Disarm at those levels, it's kinda nasty. Just daze-lock your foes until they're dead.
In this case, it absolutely is broken. Shield Slam is a PF feat, and has entirely different rules. If you are replacing a feat which was intentionally changed with the version from 3.5, you are ignoring the developers' attempt to re-balance it for the new system.
Oh I'm well aware of the differences StreamOfTheSky, and you're right. At 11th-level, Dazing Assault is clearly superior. You know what though? D&D's Shield Slam has been allowing the fighter to walk over many enemies for the last FIVE levels!
Sorry, but compared to things like Vital Strike or Improved Disarm at those levels, it's kinda nasty. Just daze-lock your foes until they're dead.
daze-lock ONE opponent. At that level, cleric or wizard casts Hold Person and Coup De Grace. The enemy caster (or casters) could just send debuffs like slow or the a fore mentioned hold person to stop you. Or another enemy bruiser could come up and hit ya. If you happen to be doing this to a caster, then a great sword, power attacker probably would have killed it in 2 or 3 rounds with 2 attacks a turn for 2d6+16, rather than dazing and smashing for 4 to 6 rounds doing 1d6+10, tops if my math is right.
I guess i just don't see it as a huge threat, maby a minor annoyance, major if i'm having a poor rolling day but not really anything i'd really worry to much about| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In this case, it absolutely is broken. Shield Slam is a PF feat, and has entirely different rules. If you are replacing a feat which was intentionally changed with the version from 3.5, you are ignoring the developers' attempt to re-balance it for the new system.
I'm not sure that they "changed the feat" as much as "made a feat that happens to have the same name"
and the pathfinder version is much better in my eyes, because i can do a full attack, 2 attacks with my main and 2 attacks with my shield making 2 bull rush attempts, as opposed to one attack with my shield with one CHANCE to daze.
Didn't you hear, Rapthorn2ndform?
Fighters can't have nice things.
;P
Didn't you hear, Rapthorn2ndform?
Fighters can't have nice things.
;P
Agreed
and that is EXACTLY why i'd say he could take this feat.because it's NOT a nice thing. :D
Oh I'm well aware of the differences StreamOfTheSky, and you're right. At 11th-level, Dazing Assault is clearly superior. You know what though? D&D's Shield Slam has been allowing the fighter to walk over many enemies for the last FIVE levels!
Sorry, but compared to things like Vital Strike or Improved Disarm at those levels, it's kinda nasty. Just daze-lock your foes until they're dead.
daze-lock ONE opponent. At that level, cleric or wizard casts Hold Person and Coup De Grace. The enemy caster (or casters) could just send debuffs like slow or the a fore mentioned hold person to stop you. Or another enemy bruiser could come up and hit ya. If you happen to be doing this to a caster, then a great sword, power attacker probably would have killed it in 2 or 3 rounds with 2 attacks a turn for 2d6+16, rather than dazing and smashing for 4 to 6 rounds doing 1d6+10, tops if my math is right.
I guess i just don't see it as a huge threat, maby a minor annoyance, major if i'm having a poor rolling day but not really anything i'd really worry to much about
The witch is also putting people to sleep. Yeah I know some things are immune to sleep, but not a lot of things are.
Shield Slam v3.5 is a well designed feat. I would allow it in my game anytime.
The witch is also putting people to sleep. Yeah I know some things are immune to sleep, but not a lot of things are.
Isn't that ability, along with some of the others mentioned, widely considered broken at low levels? I'm constantly hearing people complain about the sleep hex in particular on these forums.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh I'm well aware of the differences StreamOfTheSky, and you're right. At 11th-level, Dazing Assault is clearly superior. You know what though? D&D's Shield Slam has been allowing the fighter to walk over many enemies for the last FIVE levels!
So clearly monk, who can stun foes at level 1 (a whole FIVE levels before Shield Slam!), is overpowered beyond belief.
Why don't you like fighters having nice things?
Sorry, but compared to things like Vital Strike or Improved Disarm at those levels, it's kinda nasty. Just daze-lock your foes until they're dead.
1. You meant Greater Disarm, Imp. was available at level 1. Its an easy mistake to make, though. The very designers of PF made the same one when writing up the Monk's 6th level bonus feats list. :(
2. Both of those feats are widely considered very subpar.
Monks can only do so a couple of times a day. D&D's Shield Slam is at will.
Monks can only do so a couple of times a day. D&D's Shield Slam is at will.
with a FULL-ROUND action. for generally low damage. And most of the guys it will be done against will save out around 50% (or more) of the time.
really there a FAR more dangerous things he can be doing.
And those are broken too.
:P
And those are broken too.
:P
Taking 4 attacks with 2 weapon fighting using pathfinder sheild slam to bull rush them twice, power attacking twice with a great sword and hitting because your a fighter, rapid and many shot with a high str bow.
and the a for mentioned hold person from the cleric and wizard.
Never mind. You're missing the joke.
Never mind. You're missing the joke.
sorry
i HATE typing and reading a conversation.And regardless of how something is intended i end up thinking everybody is completely deadpan serious.
I also can't tell if its a jovial haha, slap on the back sort of joke or a hate-filled, smells-of-elderberries sort of joke.
Many things are immune to hold person - anything which is not a humanoid, and many humanoids with the correct class or buff. Hold Person is limited to the number of 2nd level spell slots the caster has, 3.5 shield slam is only limited to once per round.
Two weapon fighting is well known to be sub-optimal, shield slam in pathfinder is an attack roll against cmd, with twf penalties and/or power attack penalties as opposed to a fortitude save against an outlandishly high DC.
Two handing and power attacking is subject to all the normal obstacles - iterative attack penalty, power attack penalty, damage reduction, ditto for rapid shot and many shot.
Almost nothing is immune to the dazed condition - only undead, constructs, oozes and creatures immune to critical hits.
You will need to work harder to come up with equivalently powerful abilities available at 6th level.
Meh, I think the feat could be abused (see AM Barbarian type build, but pouncing with dual wielded shields instead of lances), but in general, while very strong, not broken.
I mean, unless are really investing some feats into shields, they are going to have inferior damage and to hit bonus then a normal weapon. And even if you do invest heavily, there are many situation where the shield just isn't the right tool for the job (ie maybe you need range/reach, or need to overcome DR).
And still, it only works on a charge. This can mean a whole lot, depending on the GM. In difficult terrain? Can't use it. In tight quarters? Can't use it. Enemies surprise you and already on top of you? Can't use it. In games I play charging is only an option in about 50% of combats. And in most other combats, I probably only have an opportunity to charge just once or twice. But, YMMV. At the very least it is impossibly to daze-lock a single opponent round after round.
So the Witch is Sleeping people from level 1, at will, at range, and for a longer duration. The Fighter can only daze from level 6 on, and only on a charge, and only for 1 round. Sure, a lot more things are immune to Daze than Sleep- but the Witch has more opportunities to use Sleep, and it is the better condition. Not to mention that a lot of the time, the targets open to charging are either meat shields (who cares if you daze them?) or things with good physical defense (ie good Fort saves).
The witch is also putting people to sleep. Yeah I know some things are immune to sleep, but not a lot of things are.Isn't that ability, along with some of the others mentioned, widely considered broken at low levels? I'm constantly hearing people complain about the sleep hex in particular on these forums.
Yeah. That is why I mentioned it. I figure if a witch can put people to sleep a fighter should be able to try to daze people people. The witch does not even have to roll the dice to make her ability work. Even though some people complain about it, most people I don't have an issue with it.
I think that when some GM's run into something new they don't know how to deal with it at first so they say it is broken/OP.
Yup, you can also give up your full attack for it. Still balanced.