Divine bond, spells, smite....i thought i had already established the fact that limited use abilities allow the other classes to outshine the fighter. That was never the argument and i dont see why it keeps getting brought up.
Sounds to me like we have a bunch of fans of the 5 minute workday, and who do not like to play challenging games. If i knew how to delete this thread i would, because its clear people missed the point of my original post and continue to bring up abilities like smite.....yes...other classes have abilities fighters dont....those abilities rock....this was never under dispute.
The point of my original post was that the other classes have all these awesome abilities and the limit placed on them needs to be enforced by gm's. You take away the limit, you take away the balance, then you get on here and run your mouth about how much the fighter sucks....lol
But please, continue to ignore my point, and could we get at least one more person to post something about how his paladin can do more damage than a fighter when he uses smite or divine bond? I dont think it sunk in the first 50 times i read it. Thanks
I've actually seen the exact opposite of that, that an intelligently built Paladin can equal and even exceed a Fighter's damage WITHOUT using Smite... but the point that was made is that there is more to a character - even a Fighter - than DPR.
Take the Paladin: Detect Evil, an at will ability, has no limited number of uses. Neither does Divine Grace, Divine Health, Aura of Courage, Aura of Resolve, Aura of Justic, Aura of Fatih or Aura of Righteousness... all help keep him alive and make him more effective AND does the same for the rest of the party, making not only the Paladin more survivable but everyone else as well. You have to be alive to deal damage, alive and not under someone else's control that is... even if its debateable that a Fighter outdamages a Paladin without limited use effects, its NOT debateable that a party with a Paladin collectively outdamages a party with a Fighter - again, even without limited use effects.
There's other things too - a Paladin's high Charisma, normally a dump stat for Fighters, allows for things like the Eldritch Heritage feat line which can offer some pretty devastating 'always on' benefits as well.
Here's another way to look at it... let's say you have a well-built 10th level Fighter in one chamber and a well-built 10th level Paladin in another chamber with equal standard equipment, and every other round an Elder Elemental enters to engage them. That's a Neutral CR11 foe every two rounds - now, which character do you think would survive longer and continue to deal its damage? My guess is the Paladin. Now, replace that Elemental with a Hezrou Demon or an Adult Black Dragon and that gap begins to widen dramatically... if the argument is the Fighter's greater staying power, I just don't see it.
Paladins being able to heal themselves give them quite the edge in endurance scenarios.
Here's another way to look at it... let's say you have a well-built 10th level Fighter in one chamber and a well-built 10th level Paladin in another chamber with equal standard equipment, and every other round an Elder Elemental enters to engage them. That's a Neutral CR11 foe every two rounds - now, which character do you think would survive longer and continue to deal its damage? My guess is the Paladin. Now, replace that Elemental with a Hezrou Demon or an Adult Black Dragon and that gap begins to widen dramatically... if the argument is the Fighter's greater staying power, I just don't see it.Now lets put them in a room with those monsters with a squishy on your side.
Congrats you survived. CLEAN UP AISLE WIZARD.
compared to fighters. You can only survive a few rounds in melee with these things? thats ok you only take 1, maybe 2 to kill them anyways. Squishy survives because monster explodes from fighter bear hug
EDIT: What I mean to say is that the longer the fight drags on the more chance you have of your caster getting killed in unfavorable conditions. Its better for party survivability to kill your enemies quickly. Yeah you may survive but will your friends?
Front liners should never consider themselves first. Your entire point is to make sure the BBEG doesn't get his hands on the casters. I propose the best way to do this is to kill them quickly
This is an incredibly confusing response... the Paladin - in addition to serving as a front line fighter - grants tremendous bonuses to his party members which the Fighter doesn't. He's also less dependent on squishies due to his ability to self heal and remove conditions as a swift action. He's basically immune to control, something that is often the Fighter's Achilles Heel and on and on I could go.
Solo, the Paladin survives much longer and hence deals much more damage over time - the argument you made in regards to the fighter - in a party the Paladin can better protect and better enhance his compatriots than the Fighter can as well.
I'll put it yet another way - you and I, your Fighter and My Paladin - go on an adventure together... who do you think is asking to rest first?
Paladins being able to heal themselves give them quite the edge in endurance scenarios.
As swift actions no less. Don't look at it as 'limited use abilities' so much as having far more hit points at their disposal.
A paladin who selfishly uses his heals only for himself is not really behaving in a lawful good manner. He should be supportive of his group members. That selfish act is going to require atonement, and until then, his heals no longer work.
GM to the rescue.
Half Elf Two Handed Fighter
racial Trait
Str 18 Dual Minded (+2 Will)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 101. Weapon Prof (Falcata)
1. Weapon Focus (Falcata)
2. Power Attack
3. Iron will
4. Weapon Spec (Falcata)
5. Weapon foc (Composite Longbow)
6. IUS
7. Tiger Style
8. Greater Weapon Focus (Falcata)
9. Weapon Spec (Composite Longbow)
10. Improved Critical (Falchion)
11. Point Blank Shot
12. Greater Weapon Spec (Falcata)
13. Greater Weapon Spec (Composite Longbow)
14. Tiger Claws
15. Tiger Ferocity
16. Precise Shot
17. Deadly Aim
18. Penetrating Strike
19. Greater Penetrating Strike
20. Rapid ShotEnd Strength 23
Please note this is never intended for gameplay but is simply a compilation of feats. All feats used meet necessary requirements.
Further please note that nowhere in Tiger Style, Style Feats, or Tiger Pounce does it say you must be unarmed in order to apply Power attack negatives to your AC instead of attack bonus. Further note that I used semi normal stats. I did not just max out strength for the purposed of DPR.
Falchion +32/27/22/17/12 (20 + 6 + 4 (Weapon Training) + 2 Greater Weapon Focus)
1d8 + 44 (12 (Str) + 24 (Power Attack) + 4 (Weapon Training) + 4 (Weapon Spec)or 48.5 average.
Target AC 40 (average for CR 20 monster is 37 but I pop it a bit for equipment and special abilities)
Miss Chance .65+.4+.15+.05+.05=1.3
1.3*48.5*1.6 = 100.88
(not so sure on crit Mod, think it might be lower but the fighter actually wields it at 17-20/x4)
I'm confused on a few things:
I'm not familiar with Tiger Ferocity - do you mean Tiger Pounce?
I see Falcata a lot and Falchion sometimes, but I think you mean Falchion. If using a Falchion with Improved Critical, your threat range will be 15-20.
Where are you getting your fifth iterative attack?
The Power Attack bonus at 20th level (+20 BAB) is +18, not +24.
Are you using a standard Fighter or a Two-Handed Weapon Fighter? Cuz that brings up some additional questions...
A paladin who selfishly uses his heals only for himself is not really behaving in a lawful good manner. He should be supportive of his group members. That selfish act is going to require atonement, and until then, his heals no longer work.
GM to the rescue.
LOL
LOLA paladin who selfishly uses his heals only for himself is not really behaving in a lawful good manner. He should be supportive of his group members. That selfish act is going to require atonement, and until then, his heals no longer work.
GM to the rescue.
I assumed a canon Paladin, the kind with drawbacks for bad behavior. Letting team mates expire in favor of your own life is EVIL.
Probably you. 3 years of gaming and 6 campaigns and I have yet to ask for a rest. But that's besides the point.This is an incredibly confusing response... the Paladin - in addition to serving as a front line fighter - grants tremendous bonuses to his party members which the Fighter doesn't. He's also less dependent on squishies due to his ability to self heal and remove conditions as a swift action. He's basically immune to control, something that is often the Fighter's Achilles Heel and on and on I could go.
Solo, the Paladin survives much longer and hence deals much more damage over time - the argument you made in regards to the fighter - in a party the Paladin can better protect and...
Sorry, but you're wrong. As we continue on, you're taking more damage than I due to a variety of powers and abilities that I have that you do not AND the fact that your hit points, once lost, are gone... whereas I have a steady supply of fairly significant heals at my disposal. The OP's point was that Fighters could last longer between rests, and my point was that Paladins are the more self-sufficient fo the two.
And - of course - in your Dragon example, I'm again far out damaging you due to Smite, and its not exactly a cold hard lock that a Dragon would ignore Paladin for a Caster... certainly he'd see a caster as a bigger threat than a weak-minded Fighter, but a spell-casting, self-healing, Smite-capable Paladin not so much.
I assumed a canon Paladin, the kind with drawbacks for bad behavior. Letting team mates expire in favor of your own life is EVIL.LOLA paladin who selfishly uses his heals only for himself is not really behaving in a lawful good manner. He should be supportive of his group members. That selfish act is going to require atonement, and until then, his heals no longer work.
GM to the rescue.
You're assuming a LOT more than that. In combat, when a Paladin is fighting evil, he is not going to simply refuse to heal himself in case a party member might need it later. As other posters on here have made clear, being available to fight and kill the foe is the best way to protect your comrades... and that's just to start.
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I'm confused on a few things:
I'm not familiar with Tiger Ferocity - do you mean Tiger Pounce?
I see Falcata a lot and Falchion sometimes, but I think you mean Falchion. If using a Falchion with Improved Critical, your threat range will be 15-20.
Where are you getting your fifth iterative attack?
The Power Attack bonus at 20th level (+20 BAB) is +18, not +24.
Are you using a standard Fighter or a Two-Handed Weapon Fighter? Cuz that...
Falcata is actually Stronger in terms of DPR, so Falcata
Yes sorry was building something with dragon Ferocity earlier. Achieved 7 attacks at highest BAB at level 12 :P
Don't know Where the fifth came from. Sorry tired, working on my research all last night. feel free to remove -.05 from the to hit modifier.
Its a two handed Fighter. Thats +24 power attack. Whats the other question? (I have a few still myself but unfortunately my friends don't play PF anymore so I get all my info from here now :P. It's what makes this so darn fun)
The Two Handed Fighter archetype of course doesn't benefit from the armor training discussed earlier. And he gets +9 damage from his strength on his first attack, the one most likely to hit. Its a little thing, but little things count.
Just for fun (I don't have the DPR calculator with me here just now), but here would be my entry. Let's keep in mind that we're removing the Paladin's class-defining ability of Smite Evil which in my case would add +4 to my attack, +4 to my AC and +20 damage per attack. This is the first Pathfinder Paladin I ever played at 20th... in his case he is most definitely not optimized for DPR either.
Human Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
Attributes
STR 16 (+2 racial, +1 at 4th and 8th, +2 at 11th, 15th and 17th)
INT 10
WIS 8
DEX 12
CON 14
CHA 16
Feats
1st - Power Attack
1st - Furious Focus
3rd - Extra Lay on Hands (+2 uses or additional Smite)
5th - Extra Lay on Hands (+2 uses or additional Smite)
7th - Skill Focus: Survival
9th - Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline)
13th - Cornugon Smash
15th - Dreadful Carnage
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline)
19th - Intimidating Prowess
Traits
Opportunistic Gambler
Bully
Assume he wields a Greatsword.
Figure at 20th level he's looking at:
Attack: +20/+15/+10/+5 [BAB] -0/-6/-6/-6 [PA] +8 [STR]
Damage: 2d6 [Greatsword] +12 [STR] +18 [PA]
That's a baseline.
Now add Divine Bond granting his weapon the qualities of +2 attack, +2 damage, Flaming (+1d6 damage) and Speed (+1 attack at full BAB).
Next, add Power of Giants (Orcish bloodline), which makes the Greatsword large-sized (3d6 instead of 2d6) and grants an additional +6 to Strength, bringing it up to 32.
That brings us to an attack of +33/+27/+22/+17/+12 for 3d6+1d6+36 damage.
Now, I haven't cast any spells, like Divine Favor which would give me another +3 attack and damage, nor applied Touch of Rage (Orcish Bloodline) which, at 20th level, would give me an additional +10 attack and +10 damage for 1d4 rounds per use... but hopefully you see where I'm going. Also not included are the auto-Shaken condition I'd be able to lay on my opponent, reducing his AC and saves. Again - all WITHOUT Smite or damage optimization.
And with that, I bid you good night, as it is indeed late. Its been a pleasant debate.
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Here's another way to look at it... let's say you have a well-built 10th level Fighter in one chamber and a well-built 10th level Paladin in another chamber with equal standard equipment, and every other round an Elder Elemental enters to engage them. That's a Neutral CR11 foe every two rounds - now, which character do you think would survive longer and continue to deal its damage? My guess is the Paladin. Now, replace that Elemental with a Hezrou Demon or an Adult Black Dragon and that gap begins to widen dramatically... if the argument is the Fighter's greater staying power, I just don't see it.
now here is another twist on your hypothetical scenario...
for every creature killed a random innocent person dies somewhere in the world. the fighter kills and , maybe, not cares. the paladin kills one and loses his nifty abilities. paladins have a blaring weakness that a fighter does not. so take that into concideration when you create situations for the paladin to excel.
Personally, I like fighters and my players seem to agree. They may not be the most powerful, but they are fun, for us at least.
Here's another way to look at it... let's say you have a well-built 10th level Fighter in one chamber and a well-built 10th level Paladin in another chamber with equal standard equipment, and every other round an Elder Elemental enters to engage them. That's a Neutral CR11 foe every two rounds - now, which character do you think would survive longer and continue to deal its damage? My guess is the Paladin. Now, replace that Elemental with a Hezrou Demon or an Adult Black Dragon and that gap begins to widen dramatically... if the argument is the Fighter's greater staying power, I just don't see it.now here is another twist on your hypothetical scenario...
for every creature killed a random innocent person dies somewhere in the world. the fighter kills and , maybe, not cares. the paladin kills one and loses his nifty abilities. paladins have a blaring weakness that a fighter does not. so take that into concideration when you create situations for the paladin to excel.
Ummm... what?
The scenario I created - a non-evil foe who couldn't cast enchantment or control-type spells - vastly favored the fighter over the paladin. Moreover, the scenario you describe is pretty assinine... but since we're entering the realm of the absurd, yes, if every time a Paladin defeated a foe it meant that somewhere in the world an innocent person would randomly die, he would indeed be at a disadvantage. The fact that you even have to go to such extremes pretty much proves my argument.
Thanks for that.
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nothing of your argument was proved. you put the fighter, yes the fighter, in an disadvantageous position to "prove" the superior surviveability of the paladin over the fighter, and you claim my example is absurd?
thanks for proving to me that you are focused on "WINNING the arguement" and not keeping ALL things in play at all times.
keep up the good work charlie sheen?
paladin can't be neutral good, or chaotic good or lawful neutral or neutral or whatever else other than lawful good.
A fighter can.
If you are roleplaying, the other classes won't always fit your concept. On the other hand, the fighter will ALWAYS fit your martial concept (A lot of feat intensive builds are only possible with a fighter, too.)
(And i have to wonder what kind of games people are playing, where people complain about sharing resources with other characters and where you can only heal and buff yourself.)
paladin can't be neutral good, or chaotic good or lawful neutral or neutral or whatever else other than lawful good.
A fighter can.
If you are roleplaying, the other classes won't always fit your concept. On the other hand, the fighter will ALWAYS fit your martial concept (A lot of feat intensive builds are only possible with a fighter, too.)
(And i have to wonder what kind of games people are playing, where people complain about sharing resources with other characters and where you can only heal and buff yourself.)
What thread is that happening on? On this one I've only seen where it was discussed how Paladins are better able to help their party with buffs, and how they had an advantage of being able to heal as a swift action which fighters didn't. No where was the hoarding of resources discussed - though it was mentioned that healing yourself instead of dieing just might be more beneficial to the group as a whole, and perhaps other members could better use their own resources, knowing that you were in less need of them.
I agree that the Fighter as a class offers a much wider array of options than a Paladin. If you want to be a two-weapon warrior, go Fighter. If you want to be a tripping specialist, go Fighter. But if you want to be a divine bastion against evil, a leader who can buff party members, heal yourself and others, create customizable magic weapons, cast spells, remove conditions, deal tremendous damage, enjoy various immunities and ridiculously high saves all with full BAB, armor and weapon profeciencies, then a Paladin may well be the choice for you.
I choose to playP aladins when I'm in the mood to play a righteous character... when I'm not, I have other characters that I play. Percieved role-play restrictions (how can something be a restriction when its what you want to do?) don't enter into a debate over surviability, ability to deal damage or longevity in combat.
Also, not that it matters, as I said, but in our particular campaign world deities of all types have Paladins, divine warriors who are bound less by the 'lawful good' alignment and more by the precepts of their faith. Under those circumstances a Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil is certainly possible, and only with the slightest bit of tweaking.
But if you want to be a divine bastion against evil, a leader who can buff party members, heal yourself and others, create customizable magic weapons, cast spells, enjoy various immunities and ridiculously high saves then a Paladin may well be the choice for you.
The cleric is better at doing all those things, though.
The cleric is better at doing all those things, though.But if you want to be a divine bastion against evil, a leader who can buff party members, heal yourself and others, create customizable magic weapons, cast spells, remove conditions, deal tremendous damage, enjoy various immunities and ridiculously high saves all with full BAB, armor and weapon profeciencies, then a Paladin may well be the choice for you.
Actually, some of those things he can't do at all.
Cleric:
divine bastion against evil - check
a leader who can buff party members - check
heal yourself and others - triple check
create customizable magic weapons - check
cast spells - infinity check
remove conditions - checkaroo
deal tremendous damage - check
enjoy various immunities and ridiculously high saves all with full BAB - Plenty of spells to make up for this one.
armor and weapon profeciencies - all the ones you will ever need
I'm not seeing how the paladin is better than the cleric at these things. In fact, this has always been an issue of mine: How the paladin is less good at being a divine warrior than the cleric.
Sorry, i couldnt respond to some messages i saw because they were locked, so here is my 2 cents on why some people think fighters suck.
Wizard Player: Well once again it looks like our big bad Fighter did not contribute very much. Whats wrong? That greatsword and full-plate to heavy for you?
Wizard, Bard and Paladin players all laugh.
Fighter Player: Oh sorry, when i made this character i thought that we might actually be sent on a time sensitive mission. Like when the evil necromancer was using an ancient artifact to summon legions of undead to terrorize the local towns and farms who were not able to defend themselves. I thought we might want to confront him as soon as possible, but i see i was wrong considering it took us 4 days to clear a 3 floor dungeon to get to him. Oh well, i guess we should go report our "success" to whoever is still alive.
Wizard, Bard, Paladin and GM get a sour look on there face and go post on the forums about how poorly the fighter did in there most recent game. GM makes plans to fudge the numbers next session to kill the Fighter for insulting the scenario he made.
The fighter is good because he does not rely on a LIMITED amount of spells or spell-like abilities to remain effective. If you cast all your high level spells every single encounter, or waste all of your smite evils on a grasshopper who looked at you wrong, or use up all your ki or rage or whatever class your playing, then you should have to live with those decisions. Instead your weak GM and his weak scenario allow you to just set up camp
and sleep away those silly things called LIMITS. You should be basing your use of spells and abilities based on how the current encounter is goin, not based on trying to out-do the fighter just because you can, mabey then you could get through a dungeon without sleeping after every 3 encounters.Classes with spells or spell-like abilities are balanced with the classes that do not have them because there is a LIMIT ( notice the capital letters yet, they are important)...
I understand that your GM may be running a game that is tailored for other classes, and that is unfortunate. Sometimes people's playstyles don't mesh. I would ask the GM to add more variety to the way he runs his games or find a new ground.
I don't know if you are friends with these people are not , but I do know that being friends, does not mean you have to game with them. It no different than having different taste in movies.edit:deleted first sentence.
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Cleric:
divine bastion against evil - check
a leader who can buff party members - check
heal yourself and others - triple check
create customizable magic weapons - check
cast spells - infinity check
remove conditions - checkaroo
deal tremendous damage - check
enjoy various immunities and ridiculously high saves all with full BAB - Plenty of spells to make up for this one.
armor and weapon profeciencies - all the ones you will ever needI'm not seeing how the paladin is better than the cleric at these things. In fact, this has always been an issue of mine: How the paladin is less good at being a divine warrior than the cleric.
Perhaps because once he's done casting all those spells, combat will have long been over.
In a single round of combat, at 20th level, as a Paladin I can:
Make a full attack action at full BAB, dealing hundreds of points of damage to a foe if not killing him or banishing him outright.
Apply my Charisma bonus to my saving throws.
Heal myself.
Remove multiple conditions upon myself.
Be immune to fear.
Grant a +4 bonus to saving throws against fear to my comrades.
Be immune to diseases.
Be immune to Charm spells and spell-like abilities.
Grant a +4 bonus to saving throws against Charm spells and spellilke abilities to my comrades.
Grant the Smite ability to my comrades - that's +6 attack, +6 AC and +20 damage each.
Treat my weapons and those of my comrades as good-aligned for purposes of over-coming DR.
Gain DR 10/Evil.
Gain immunity to Compulsion spells and spell-like abilities.
Grant a +4 bonus to saving throws against Compulsion spells and spell-like abilities to my comrades.
You say that a Cleric can do all those things through spells - how many rounds do you suppose it would take?
The fighter is good because he does not rely on a LIMITED amount of spells or spell-like abilities to remain effective.
LOL no. Fighters DO rely on a LIMITED amount of spells to remain effective. It's called "healing" and "removing conditions", and Fighters need caster help with every single hp and condition and poison.
You say that a Cleric can do all those things through spells - how many rounds do you suppose it would take?
The key is to buff ahead of time. If you're able to dictate when the engagement happens (more often than not the party is able to) the Cleric can say "I cast X, Y, and Z" before the GM calls for initiative.
In a single round of combat, at 20th level, as a Paladin I can:
*His class abilities*
A 20th level cleric can cast miracle with a powdered diamond and ask his deity for his enemies to just die on the spot. Or maybe ask his deity to give him all of those mentioned bonuses for the duration of the fight.
Alternatively, he can cast gate and pull in a creature with up to his caster level in HD (more if he feels ballsy) and ask it nicely to dispose of whatever it is that's bothering him.
The key is to buff ahead of time. If you're able to dictate when the engagement happens (more often than not the party is able to) the Cleric can say "I cast X, Y, and Z" before the GM calls for initiative.
You say that a Cleric can do all those things through spells - how many rounds do you suppose it would take?
Some spells last for rounds, some for hours, and some for minutes. To have all those spells(the ones you would need in order to do what the paladin automatically gets) up and running takes a decent amount of time, and then to determine when you will fight the bad guys, is hard to dictate on a regular basis.
The world does not freeze because you say you want to cast spells. Three spells still take at least 3 rounds to cast most of the time. The bad guy is not going to twiddle his thumbs and allow you to get three buffs off. If he is not harassing you that means he is buffing also.
In a single round of combat, at 20th level, as a Paladin I can:
*His class abilities*
A 20th level cleric can cast miracle with a powdered diamond and ask his deity for his enemies to just die on the spot. Or maybe ask his deity to give him all of those mentioned bonuses for the duration of the fight.
Alternatively, he can cast gate and pull in a creature with up to his caster level in HD (more if he feels ballsy) and ask it nicely to dispose of whatever it is that's bothering him.
That is called GM Fiat, and is playstyle is not a valid argument. If the cleric is high enough level to have miracle then so is the bad guy so why can't he cast miracle or wish and kill the party long before they get to his fortress/HQ/etc?
By trying to pull the Rule 0 card, all it does is open it up for anyone else to say "well my GM allows/does not allow...." meaning you get an adult version of "Yes I did, Noe you didn't".
But Lord Wraithstrike do you mean to say that you won't grant our wishes to destroy the goody two-shoes paladins coming to destroy our hidden lair?
The example used a 20th level paladin. and those spells are available to a 20th level cleric.
This is not GM fiat. Gate does allow the cleric to pull in powerful creatures and miracle, with 25,000gp investment, does allow for your deity to intervene.
Outside of the specific listed uses of miracle it is GM Fiat.
But Lord Wraithstrike do you mean to say that you won't grant our wishes to destroy the goody two-shoes paladins coming to destroy our hidden lair?
No. That is a waste of good resources. I will turn them into graveknights with levels of antipaladin and send them back to where they came from.
If a few commoners die along the way so be it. That is the price for not joining Team Wraithstrike.
The example used a 20th level paladin. and those spells are available to a 20th level cleric.
This is not GM fiat. Gate does allow the cleric to pull in powerful creatures and miracle, with 25,000gp investment, does allow for your deity to intervene.
If it is not specifically written in the book it is GM Fiat/rule 0.
Gate specifically says you can do X so you can.Miracle gives some things it can do, just like the wish spell does. Anything else is GM territory.
Getting your buffs all at once is hardly something more powerful than insta-reviving all of your allies, as is one of the examples given in the spell description when using the 25,000 GP offering. And Gate specifically states you can call a creature of up to your CL in HD and keep it under control, or call a creature of up to twice your CL in HD (But it does whatever it wants, leaving you immediately included) and then attempt to negotiate for it's service.
alternatively, you could use greater planar ally and receive a very similar effect, but it is limited to 18HD. So, you can't call a Solar Angel and ask it to help.
I was saying Gate say what you can do so you can do it.
Letting miracle do anything that is not in the book is rule 0.
A miracle can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower.
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 25,000 gp in powdered diamond because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following:
Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to a specific locale through planar barriers with no chance of error.
Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity's (or alignment's) nature is refused.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.
Even with the 25000 gp you don't get to do "anything". The spell says you can make request. It never says those request get an automatic yes. Even if the GM allows you to cast all those spells at once which is doubtful*, spending 25000 gp everytime to make it happen gets expensive.
*A 1 time magic item that duplicated all of those spells would cost more than 25000 so I am doubting the GM is going to give you a free pass if you try to do it all the time. Those examples(which are not guaranteed) involving stopping natural disasters are likely 1 time request.
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The problem with fighters isn't with them, it's with the GM.
Fighters can deal sustained damage, soak damage, and avoid damage better than most other class. Most casters are all about a few short bursts. GMs need to be able to cater situations where fighters can shine (that means not stopping and resting after a fight or two). Send in plenty of small mobs to keep the pressure on a party where fighters get to slaughter them.
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The problem with fighters isn't with them, it's with the GM.
Fighters can deal sustained damage, soak damage, and avoid damage better than most other class. Most casters are all about a few short bursts. GMs need to be able to cater situations where fighters can shine (that means not stopping and resting after a fight or two). Send in plenty of small mobs to keep the pressure on a party where fighters get to slaughter them.
Hypothetically, lets say that I just happen to be a DM (I know, we're really stretching the believability here but stick with me on this) and I write an adventure for my players filled with a wide variety of different challenges which can each be approached from a number of angles and which comes together to form a complete, if mailable (by player choice) story arc. Am I an awesome DM because the adventure included a few combat encounters for the fighter to fight things in and thus "shine"? Or am I a crappy DM because the fighter can't "soak damage" his way around a large number of these challenges and thus looks on as other players do most of the work while he waits for his chance to meat shield his way into the spot light?
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Whether a fighter sucks or not is purely subjective and it will always remain so.
Paladins and Rangers depend on certain types of creatures and certain situations while the fighter does not. His damage is always going to be there so it becomes dependable. Also, once a fighter starts getting access to the critical feats it becomes even better.
What also makes the fighter so wonderful is the fact that you can build multiple types of fighters from sword and board to archery.
All classes have their weaknesses during certain scenarios and certain situations so it's really a moot point.
If the fighter truly sucked as bad as some people say then how come many may people still play the class. If paladin and ranger were so much better then you would think everyone who wanted to play a melee class would choose them but they don't.
Whether a fighter sucks or not is purely subjective and it will always remain so.
Paladins and Rangers depend on certain types of creatures and certain situations while the fighter does not. His damage is always going to be there so it becomes dependable. Also, once a fighter starts getting access to the critical feats it becomes even better.
What also makes the fighter so wonderful is the fact that you can build multiple types of fighters from sword and board to archery.
I don't now nor have I ever thought Fighters suck. As stated, I love them, and you are absolutely dead on in your point about their versatility appealing to a wide array of play-styles.
However, also as I stated, a Paladin's 'reliance' on certain types of creatures is woefully overstated... putting aside the fact that the vast majority of foes you will face in a campaign shall be evil, I've made it quite clear through example that even against non-evil foes well built Paladins are more survivable than fighters and can deal just as much damage. It would be more accurate to say that fighters are dependant on neutral foes who don't have access to mind-affecting spells in order to shine... against everything else Paladins will tend to dominate.
A fellow player and I used to run in a 2-man campaign where we both played Paladins and one of the most interesting battles we had was against a Druid and two Dire Bears - both neutral. We had to set aside Smite and settle for basically just being fighters... who could cast spells, create customizable magic weapons, have ridiculously high saves and immunities, self-heal and remove conditions. Actually wasn't as horrible as you might think.
A miracle can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower.
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 25,000 gp in powdered diamond because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following:
Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to a specific locale through planar barriers with no chance of error.
Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity's (or alignment's) nature is refused.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.
Even with the 25000 gp you don't get to do "anything". The spell says you can make request. It never says those request get an automatic yes. Even if the GM allows you to cast all those spells at once which is doubtful*, spending 25000 gp everytime to make it happen gets expensive.
*A 1 time magic item that duplicated all of those spells would cost more than 25000 so I am doubting the GM is going to give you a free pass if you try to do it all the time. Those examples(which are not guaranteed) involving stopping natural disasters are likely 1 time request.
Those are examples. Not a definitive list. And insta reviving all of your allies during a fight is also way beyond the cost of 25,000.
Besides, this is a tangent within a tagent.