First off, let me say that this is NOT a balance inquiry. Casters vs Fighter is a long, frequent, and boring topic, and not the answer I'm looking for.
My new campaign is going well, but I have some concerns about the fighter in the party. He completely outshines everyone else in combat, doing twice to three times as much damage. The rest of the party feels slightly neutered by this. While not in combat, though, he doesn't do anything, as he has no useful skills.
The PCs are 6th level, and are 20-point build. Party consists of 2-weapon Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Shapeshifter Ranger. The Ranger has hit a sort of dead end with his build; natural weapons don't scale well, and he lost his third one (he started as a half-orc with the Toothy trait, but a death and a Reincarnation later...). The Cleric is a new player, and so doesn't know how to trick out his spellcasting; I can't offer him advice, never having played one. The Wizard is just a Wizard.
My questions are, is this normal? Should I be throwing monsters with higher/lower AC at the party? Will the obscenely different damage potentials shrink with growing levels, or increase? I want to take the campaign to high levels; 17-18 at least being my goal. I wonder if at that level, the Fighter will be constantly frustrated, though, as combats become less frequent and campaign-straddling things are accomplished via roleplaying encounters.
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Fighters are designed to do damage. I am not trying to make a snide comment, but you might as well ask why the wizard is casting more spells than the fighter. If the casters are unsure about spell selection, I suggest the guide to guides thread, and point them in that direction, including your ranger. In fact, if you have the ranger's build, I can give advice to improve his capabilities.
Yah, it's rough that the ranger chose natural attacks if he's trying to compete in damage... there are only so many tricks he can pull out of his hat.
As your ranger was raised by orcs you could give him the adopted trait and that way give him back his toothy trait.
Even if he wasn't adopted the rest of the trait fits. He now is no orc but he was raides by one and as one.
If you want the others to shine you could add some small squishy foes where it doesn't matter how much damage the fighter does because 5-10 hp is all the got, but there's many of them.
But all in all as you say: He is built for combat, he can't do anything else. Do you want him to be just the other guy in combat while he is sitting arount out of combat just because the others took classes that can shine in and out of combat?
If the mage caste a save or suck spell and the ranger does a coup de grace on that guy they together killes a baddy in one round. If it is a tough enemy the fighter will have a hard time doing that.
So playing clever let's you contribute meaningful in combat.
I am not very familiar with the natural ranger, but the archtype really seems terrible. I don't think this build will ever be able to compete with the fighter for damage. We are looking at a bunch of free feats that can be used only when you shapeshift. Once per day. Does this feel like the old barbarian rage to anyone else?
The cleric and the wizard needn't bother to compete in damage. If that was their goal, they choose the wrong classes. The cleric should still be able to contribute with more than just heals if he chooses his spells well. I know you say you haven't played one before, but if you are a more experienced player than the cleric, you should still be able to make some judgment calls about useful spells.
The wizard could probably come the closest to damage competition if he focuses properly, but why would he? I have never liked the idea of the blaster wizard. Seriously, just get your wizard to read Treantmonk's guide to the god-wizard, and tell him to prep Summon Monster III.
You have to balance one of the hardest things about DM'ing: combat and non-combat. In combat, the fighter is going to be the king, but out of it, he may as well just stick his finger up his nose. This was the trade off he made when he chose his class. Try to keep him involved with role playing, but accept that non-combat is where you can make your other characters feel like kings.
A few things. First decide if the optimization level of the party is even a cross the board. Is the fighter set up to do one thing well while the ranger has skill focus basket weaving because it relaxes him after a hard days adventuring.
( as a note, nothing wrong with basket weaving, just all players should be on the same page or at least chapter of the book for play style)
Second thing is your spellcasters are nearing the period where spells start to really pack punch. There's at least one SoD at lvl 4 for wizard and a number of great SoS.
Thirdly the group are not really competing against each other, ultimately its not their goal to out do the fighters damage, but support rachother to brat the opponent.
However for the ranger I know feeling like your a toddler playing rugby with adults isn't fun.
The only real suggestion I can make is change how you do encounters, every party member needs a chance to shine. Things like terrain based challenges or where you have to get to the bad guys should give the ranger a chance to do his thing. The only trouble is you've already hit the level spells start to ignore this stuff.
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Go Ranger 2/Witch 1/Alchemist 4. Get prehensile hair as your witch hex. Take Vestigial arm for both of your discoveries. Go Natural Weapons combat style for ranger, selecting Aspect of the Beast as your bonus feat to get two claw attacks. For one of your traits, take Tusked from Orcs of Golarion to get a bite attack. You'll attack with claw/claw/bite/hair, while one of your extra hands wields a shield and the other extra hand uses wands. Then, take a level in Master of Many styles monk. Select Feral combat training as a regular feat, and go down Dragon style with your bonus feats. Wear a Monk's Robe. your claw/claw/bite/hair will all hit for 2d6 damage + 1.5x your str modifier. So it'll be like using four greatswords two-handed at the same time, while using a shield and casting spells from wands each round.
Favorite ranger idea ever lol.
Not sure about your fighter, but have some advice for the ranger. Though I will say the ranger build does have problems doing damage without magic item help.
He has two natural attacks (probably claws from the feat), both at full bab.
If he puts a sword in one hand, he would have two attacks with the sword, one at full bab and one at the normal -5. He can then make a claw attack at -5 as a secondary attack, using 1/2 strength bonus to damage.
If he is allowed to take multiattack, the minus to secondary attack would drop to 2, though no help with strength damage.
Another option would be to go the style feat route. Take IUS, Weapon focus (claws), and feral combat (claws). Now, any style feat would apply to his two claw attacks, which would still be at full bab. Some of the style feats would buff his damage (such as two levels of dragon style to get 1 1/2 str on claw attacks). Feat expensive, but unarmed fighter and master of many styles would help this out.
If you want to help him out, amulet of mighty fists would add to claw damage or a special magic item might give him back his bite (base it off alter self or the druid spell wich makes their natural attack count as two sizes larger; have it work a set number of minutes per day or something).
If you can't beat Rock with Scissors, try Paper. Have them run across a Nymph in the forest. Or anything else that requires a will save will do nicely.
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I'm having a similar problem in my campaign, there's a rather vanilla TW Fighter that does decently-well (beginning to question how a TWF can only roll above 22 all the time at lvl 3). The problem, however, lies in the other players. Where a fighter doesn't really have room for creativity, and thus complication, the other players don't really seem to know what to do with themselves. A rogue preferring a crossbow over a shortbow, uses a single sickle to attack, with feats that don't seem to have a clear direction in purpose. An alchemist who seems more predisposed towards flavor than utility, getting vestigial arms and a tentacle to hold a wand and potions.
Personally, I'm thinking of working with them to do an overhaul of their characters' feats, archetypes, discoveries, rogue talents, etc.
As it stands right now, I shudder to throw any encounter at them that is mildly complex.
You might also allow the ranger to take improved natural attack, as the claws from the feat are only 1d4.
Basicaly, it seems as the problem is that the fighter is showing up the ranger, not that the fighter has built anything over-powered. If the ranger were closer in terms of effectiveness, the cleric and wizard could go back to spellcasting.
If the ranger were more in line with the fighter, would combat seem more balanced?
Go Ranger 2/Witch 1/Alchemist 4. Get prehensile hair as your witch hex. Take Vestigial arm for both of your discoveries. Go Natural Weapons combat style for ranger, selecting Aspect of the Beast as your bonus feat to get two claw attacks. For one of your traits, take Tusked from Orcs of Golarion to get a bite attack. You'll attack with claw/claw/bite/hair, while one of your extra hands wields a shield and the other extra hand uses wands. Then, take a level in Master of Many styles monk. Select Feral combat training as a regular feat, and go down Dragon style with your bonus feats. Wear a Monk's Robe. your claw/claw/bite/hair will all hit for 2d6 damage + 1.5x your str modifier. So it'll be like using four greatswords two-handed at the same time, while using a shield and casting spells from wands each round.
Sweet Jesus, that's ridiculous.
This just shows that the most OP character at the table is the one who had the most thought put into its design before character creation. It's never a class problem.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Let him shine. He has one trick and 6th level is when he is really good at it without others outshining him in that one area.
Look at your other player's characters and find what they are really good at. Then, create encounters that allow them to have their moments in the spotlight. You could have a creature with some high DR but vulnerability to energy damage. You could also have an encounter where the bad guy gets away and needs to be chased and tracked by your ranger.
Don't nerf the fighter, as that will cause problems later down the road. I do recommend your other players look at the various guides available to help them. However to really make this work you are going to have to put in that extra work to create moments everyone can shine.
The only player in that party that should be even thinking about trying to keep pace with the fighter's damage is the ranger.
Have your players specifically voiced this concern to you? Have you discussed them with them and the fighter's player so that he is aware of their concerns?
Go Ranger 2/Witch 1/Alchemist 4. Get prehensile hair as your witch hex. Take Vestigial arm for both of your discoveries. Go Natural Weapons combat style for ranger, selecting Aspect of the Beast as your bonus feat to get two claw attacks. For one of your traits, take Tusked from Orcs of Golarion to get a bite attack. You'll attack with claw/claw/bite/hair, while one of your extra hands wields a shield and the other extra hand uses wands. Then, take a level in Master of Many styles monk. Select Feral combat training as a regular feat, and go down Dragon style with your bonus feats. Wear a Monk's Robe. your claw/claw/bite/hair will all hit for 2d6 damage + 1.5x your str modifier. So it'll be like using four greatswords two-handed at the same time, while using a shield and casting spells from wands each round.Sweet Jesus, that's ridiculous.
This just shows that the most OP character at the table is the one who had the most thought put into its design before character creation. It's never a class problem.
Seriously...
How does a person shoe-horn and jack-hammer a backstory into mess?
Seriously...
How does a person shoe-horn and jack-hammer a backstory into mess?
That's something only those sissy roleplayers do! We, True Optimizers, shall stop at nothing to reach our goal!
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That's something only those sissy roleplayers do! We, True Optimizers, shall stop at nothing to reach our goal!Seriously...
How does a person shoe-horn and jack-hammer a backstory into mess?
*waves his handkerchief, faints*
Go Ranger 2/Witch 1/Alchemist 4. Get prehensile hair as your witch hex. Take Vestigial arm for both of your discoveries. Go Natural Weapons combat style for ranger, selecting Aspect of the Beast as your bonus feat to get two claw attacks. For one of your traits, take Tusked from Orcs of Golarion to get a bite attack. You'll attack with claw/claw/bite/hair, while one of your extra hands wields a shield and the other extra hand uses wands. Then, take a level in Master of Many styles monk. Select Feral combat training as a regular feat, and go down Dragon style with your bonus feats. Wear a Monk's Robe. your claw/claw/bite/hair will all hit for 2d6 damage + 1.5x your str modifier. So it'll be like using four greatswords two-handed at the same time, while using a shield and casting spells from wands each round.Sweet Jesus, that's ridiculous.
This just shows that the most OP character at the table is the one who had the most thought put into its design before character creation. It's never a class problem.
Seriously...
How does a person shoe-horn and jack-hammer a backstory into mess?
Oh that's easy.
The guy was clearly Chaotic Evil at birth, and grew up with druids, and the druids kicked him out of the grove, not letting him in because of his alignment. So he was a smart guy, and scoured the earth for any bit and piece of arcane knowledge that would help him emulate druids, so he could use it in his quest to eradicate all druids from the world and replace their order with one of his own devising.
That's something only those sissy roleplayers do! We, True Optimizers, shall stop at nothing to reach our goal!Seriously...
How does a person shoe-horn and jack-hammer a backstory into mess?
haha! +1 to the three of you!
Go Ranger 2/Witch 1/Alchemist 4. Get prehensile hair as your witch hex. Take Vestigial arm for both of your discoveries. Go Natural Weapons combat style for ranger, selecting Aspect of the Beast as your bonus feat to get two claw attacks. For one of your traits, take Tusked from Orcs of Golarion to get a bite attack. You'll attack with claw/claw/bite/hair, while one of your extra hands wields a shield and the other extra hand uses wands. Then, take a level in Master of Many styles monk. Select Feral combat training as a regular feat, and go down Dragon style with your bonus feats. Wear a Monk's Robe. your claw/claw/bite/hair will all hit for 2d6 damage + 1.5x your str modifier. So it'll be like using four greatswords two-handed at the same time, while using a shield and casting spells from wands each round.Sweet Jesus, that's ridiculous.
This just shows that the most OP character at the table is the one who had the most thought put into its design before character creation. It's never a class problem.
Seriously...
How does a person shoe-horn and jack-hammer a backstory into mess?
A good power gamer never let any roleplay get in the way of his rollplay.
Good optimizers make roleplayers think, everything your char can do is just based on the backstory - not on crunch!
A sect of druids found the small boy, when the ash had settled. He nesteled warm beneath his parents' cooling bodies. Seeing no hope for the elders, they lifted the child to the back of a ompiur and the six-legged beast carried him back to the grove.
He grew into a strong warrior. He adhered to their traditions, and honored them even as he sought to honor what memories he possessed of his own people. He blended their tradition with half-formed words, apparently earnest to honor the lives of all who had saved him. Most of the druids considered themselves blessed. His talents brought healing, and his wisdom, while not quite their own, mixed well and carried with it (they believed) messages from the stars above. The stars that their calendar said, he was born under.
Only one druid saw the truth. Flordar the druid came upon the young man one night, and saw the eyes of their enemy. He saw the eyes of Qarr the Molten One staring out from the boy's face. And Grungh, knowing he'd been discovered, lashed out with the wildness of one blessed by a truly wild god...
No one knew what became of Grungh. His former brethren discovered Flordar's slashed corpse the next morn, with a burning coal shoved between its lips, still smoking. The flesh crackling.
...that's how. You get creative. :/
For the rest, give them time. Everyone learns. ...the fighter's player may need to take a step back, the DMing style may need to relax a touch. Encourage them, have fun, work together. It will not click in the first session, maybe not even the second. PF is a complex game, so you'll need patience.
Also, site note: do monks gain the style feats as bonus feats? I remember reading somewhere that they didn't, though I might be thinking of something else.
Wizard and cleric NPCs, plus will save creatures. Plus creatures with fly will nerf the two-weapon fighter to an extent. DR whatever the party doesn't have will boost cleric and wizard utility as their spells become more effective to deal damage than the fighter weapons. Now, sure the fighter needs to shine sometimes, too. But varied encounters and encounter types can really help. Thrown in environment, too. Underwater, knee-deep river. These type of classes like the TW fighter shine in the easiest to design encounters. Close with big brute and beat on it.
Forgoing all that, sounds like with a rookie cleric and a non-optimized ranger, that optimization may be your problem.
Fact of the matter is that even a journymen optimizer amount a group of non-optomizers can make everyone else feel ineffective. Especially when that optomizer is playing a martial class. It happens to all of us. What's worse is when the one optimizer in the group whines when you design encounters to nerf them so everyone else at the table can have fun, too.
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Go Ranger 2/Witch 1/Alchemist 4. Get prehensile hair as your witch hex. Take Vestigial arm for both of your discoveries. Go Natural Weapons combat style for ranger, selecting Aspect of the Beast as your bonus feat to get two claw attacks. For one of your traits, take Tusked from Orcs of Golarion to get a bite attack. You'll attack with claw/claw/bite/hair, while one of your extra hands wields a shield and the other extra hand uses wands. Then, take a level in Master of Many styles monk. Select Feral combat training as a regular feat, and go down Dragon style with your bonus feats. Wear a Monk's Robe. your claw/claw/bite/hair will all hit for 2d6 damage + 1.5x your str modifier. So it'll be like using four greatswords two-handed at the same time, while using a shield and casting spells from wands each round.
Okay, there is something wrong with this logic.
Feral combat training only applies to a single natural weapon. So Dragon Ferocity would only affect one attack of your natural weapons. And for the sake of argument, it doesn't look like you can take Feral Combat training more than once.Does anyone know how a Feral Combat Training natural weapon is supposed to interact with a Flurry of Blows?
If one were to assume that the intent behind Feral Combat Training is to be able to use a single natural weapon in all of the attacks of a Flurry of Blows, then I suggest making a flurry of bites, if only for the sake of it being ridiculous.
1. Character Builds and optimizations
If a (new) player isn't happy with their build, consider letting them change it. Basically, it should be a learning experience; They should now be starting to understand what is working and what isn't. If they can show you a plan through 18 (as the end of the campaign), and they would have fun playing that, let them.
If the other players just don't want to heavily min-max optimize for combat, (i.e., the see a specific roll/niche instance in the game that they like), while the fighter is focused on generic combat, then there isn't much that can be done directly. Ask them to describe what they see their character as (without mechanics), then check for character build ideas on the boards here.
2. Level 6
As mentioned by Synthesist7, level 6 is a strong point for fighters. However, it should be noted that the wizard should be coming into his own at this point.
3. Fighter as the heavy hitter
The fighter having a high damage output can be mitigated in several ways, but this will take practice with GMing. Using mooks (low level enemies) is one way. Anyone can one hit them, where the fighter's high damage doesn't help more. Instead, the fighter should attend the big bad high HP enemy if he wants his high damage to be significant.
Fighters might have problems against casters, especially if the caster is on home-turf. If a fighter fails a (will) save and gets paralyzed/slowed/stuck, he won't be able to contribute actions. Note that this should not happen often, as it would get old fast, but could be done on occasion to add variety. Additionally, spells that mobilize the caster (Fly, Tree Stride, etc.) can't keep in attack range. Finally, spells that impact the Fighter's perception (Invisibility, Darkness, various illusions, etc.) will hinder direct attacks.
Finally, using monsters that are resilient to the fighters direct attacks. Swarms, incorporeal undead, flying monsters.
4. Encounters.
As for high or low AC encounters, use both. Variety is the spice of life. Sometimes the party needs to get behind the Fighter, other times everyone can land hits on their own.
Also, create encounters which aren't pure hack and slash combat. Noncombatants that must be saved or guided, or other plot objects. Create jobs in the encounter that other characters can do while the fighter does his thing.
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I'll echo some of the other comments here. The fighter in my RotR/KM hybrid campaign went through the same progression you describe (and was un-hittable because he was a shield guy to boot).
At 10th level, he recently learned a lesson in vulnerability after charging an APL+2 Red Dragon with an ALP-1 Rider, and being dropped in two rounds. This has been building for a few levels now to the point where he's no longer invulnerable to attack like he was and he no longer hits with every attack. He's now being out-damaged by the bow-ranger most of the time and sometimes by the switch-hitting barbarian and horse riding bow-cleric as he is so heavily invested in melee and does not fare well against mobile (flying) opponents.
My advice would be to let the poor boy have his day in the sun and do what you can to help the Ranger rescue his character build (maybe his teeth keep growing slowly over the months after his reincarnation or let him quest for some alchemiical reagent that will help that happen or something - basically something cool to get him back to being a happy contributor).
Yes, the fact that they are listed as general feats
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Go Ranger 2/Witch 1/Alchemist 4. Get prehensile hair as your witch hex. Take Vestigial arm for both of your discoveries. Go Natural Weapons combat style for ranger, selecting Aspect of the Beast as your bonus feat to get two claw attacks. For one of your traits, take Tusked from Orcs of Golarion to get a bite attack. You'll attack with claw/claw/bite/hair, while one of your extra hands wields a shield and the other extra hand uses wands. Then, take a level in Master of Many styles monk. Select Feral combat training as a regular feat, and go down Dragon style with your bonus feats. Wear a Monk's Robe. your claw/claw/bite/hair will all hit for 2d6 damage + 1.5x your str modifier. So it'll be like using four greatswords two-handed at the same time, while using a shield and casting spells from wands each round.Okay, there is something wrong with this logic.
Feral combat training only applies to a single natural weapon. So Dragon Ferocity would only affect one attack of your natural weapons. And for the sake of argument, it doesn't look like you can take Feral Combat training more than once.Does anyone know how a Feral Combat Training natural weapon is supposed to interact with a Flurry of Blows?
If one were to assume that the intent behind Feral Combat Training is to be able to use a single natural weapon in all of the attacks of a Flurry of Blows, then I suggest making a flurry of bites, if only for the sake of it being ridiculous.
+1 This.
This mess of an idea unfortunately doesn't work.First you can only take feral combat training once so pick one natural attack, the rest are not affected.
Second, Mixing Natural attacks and iterative attacks makes all your nat attacks secondary and keeping Dragon style from being worth the investment (secondary attacks are at .5x str bonus add dragon style for 1.5 x.5 = .75 of your str bonus on nat attacks) and since you are using a shield (which IS a weapon) every attack you use is as a secondary attack.
Third, Prehensile hair uses your int bonus as it's strength score making you a MAD MAD character.
Finally, ALL bestiary feats are flagged as applying to monsters. SOME players may qualify for them but that is up to your GM. ie don't bet on them being allowed.
So no, none of this actually works, try again.
Now back to the OP, your Natural Weapon Ranger needs to get his bite back or he'll never keep up. Once he has that he'll just need to invest in getting his strength up to 20 or higher and invest in an Amulet of mighty fist (vicious). He'll start doing 3D4 + (15+) + 6D6 (FE Bonus) every round of combat for the low cost of 10 hp's a round on average.
Throw on a decent wolf Animal companion (that he rides into battle for a poor man's pounce) and by 7th level (use a horse if under 7th) he'll be sitting at about 100 pts of damage a round.
Natural Weapon rangers can easily do INSANE damage damage if built well, they just peak at 11th level and need to switch things up then.
Thanks for the advice, all. Gotten quite a few ideas, and plan to switch up my design a bit. Also I'm trying to plan in character development points already, so will talk to the Fighter and try to make him have plans beyond killing all the things.
As for the Ranger, I'm going to have to make a plan with him. One possibility is for him to multiclass into Wolf Totem druid; it fits his story, and may work well.
Rangers can not, will not, and aren't meant to compete with the Fighter for damage.
Well, against favored enemies (full bonus) I think that decently optimized rangers are usually on par damage-wise with fighters unless gloves of dueling are involved (actually, on average I think they are a bit above until level 20, where crits put the fighters ahead). Past level 10, the instant enemy spell will ensure that rangers will be the star in the boss fight. Guide archetype will ensure that from level 1.
Now, the archetype chosen by your player is not very strong: it's further gimped even more by the loss of the bite. First of all, give it back to him: maybe he still has more pointy teeth than the average human, or maybe he filed his teeth to get the bite back. Whatever. Just give it back.
Then, are you considering the ranger's animal companion? if your player takes boon companion, it should be putting out good damage, especially at low level. If for some reason he doesn't want to have an effective animal companion, the guide archetype can be combined with the shapeshifter ranger for good bonuses against the strongest foes.
Rangers can not, will not, and aren't meant to compete with the Fighter for damage. Damage is all that Fighters bring to the table, it's their reason for existing since they're not geared for any other role. Rangers on the other hand, have stealth, they've got magic, and a heck of a lot of out of combat utility.
It looks to me more of a case of misplaced 'peen envy. Especially from someone who chose a build that's much more flavor oriented than one designed to "win" a DPR olympic.
If the Fighter is overbearing the other players, it's generally for two reasons. The DM is running a campaign where it's just combat combat combat, and a couple of thrown together NPC interactions to bridge them, or the Fighter player is simply working more with what he's got than the others. Or the 'peen envy as noted above.
Wow, no one showed me that rule. I suppose I should cut my rangers damage in half so the fighter can feel better about himself then :-)
Also, bad news for all the CAGM barbarian builds out there, the fighter needs you to tone it down!
secondary attacks are at .5x str bonus add dragon style for 1.5 x.5 = .75 of your str bonus on nat attacks
Reread the feat. Adjust your order of operations. You just get to add 1.5*str to your first unarmed (now natural thanks to the other feat) attack of the round.
Base damage +(.5*str) +(1.5*str)
Optionally you could rule the 1.5 bonus replaces the .5 you get normally, but it doesn't say that.
Pretty hefty bonus IMO, far better than your .75 figure.
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secondary attacks are at .5x str bonus add dragon style for 1.5 x.5 = .75 of your str bonus on nat attacksReread the feat. Adjust your order of operations. You just get to add 1.5*str to your first unarmed (now natural thanks to the other feat) attack of the round.
Base damage +(.5*str) +(1.5*str)
Optionally you could rule the 1.5 bonus replaces the .5 you get normally, but it doesn't say that.
Pretty hefty bonus IMO, far better than your .75 figure.
I am failing to see anywhere in this feats description where it says you can add your strength bonus twice on damage. The 1.5xstr bonus is used in place of the regular +str bonus on attacks not in addition to it.
Now lets assume this ranger has a +6 str modifier to make the math easier.Now basic order of operations mathematics goes PEMDAS (Parentheses -> Exponents -> Multiplication -> Division -> Addition -> Subtraction)
With that said you'd apply the dragon style feat first making it a +9 bonus (6 * 1.5), then the secondary Natural attacks modifier making it a 4.5 (9/2 = 4.5) or 75% of the original bonus (which rounds down to 4 in this case for only 66% of the original bonus actually).
This right here is one of the main reasons I always advise against mixing Natural and iterative attacks. It's not really worth it and the math throws everyone off.
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secondary attacks are at .5x str bonus add dragon style for 1.5 x.5 = .75 of your str bonus on nat attacksReread the feat. Adjust your order of operations. You just get to add 1.5*str to your first unarmed (now natural thanks to the other feat) attack of the round.
Base damage +(.5*str) +(1.5*str)
Optionally you could rule the 1.5 bonus replaces the .5 you get normally, but it doesn't say that.
Pretty hefty bonus IMO, far better than your .75 figure.
I am failing to see anywhere in this feats description where it says you can add your strength bonus twice on damage. The 1.5xstr bonus is used in place of the regular +str bonus on attacks not in addition to it.
Now lets assume this ranger has a +6 str modifier to make the math easier.Now basic order of operations mathematics goes PEMDAS (Parentheses -> Exponents -> Multiplication -> Division -> Addition -> Subtraction)
With that said you'd apply the dragon style feat first making it a +9 bonus (6 * 1.5), then the secondary Natural attacks modifier making it a 4.5 (9/2 = 4.5) or 75% of the original bonus (which rounds down to 4 in this case for only 66% of the original bonus actually).
This right here is one of the main reasons I always advise against mixing Natural and iterative attacks. It's not really worth it and the math throws everyone off.
Thats kinda off. (Oh and btw multiplication and division go at the same time, from left to right) It doesn't get halved. Normally you'd use half your strength bonus (.5*STR) for a secondary attack. But dragon style specifically states it puts the first attack to a 1.5 multiplier.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls....
Mathematical operations can't really be done at the same time and maintain any consistency, that's why we have an order of operations rule and since Multiplication comes before division in that rule it goes first.
Also Dragon style doesn't say that, it's exact wording is:
Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Slightly different but this wording does not state or even imply that the normal rules of mixing natural and iterative attacks are overruled, you simply apply them both.
I disagree, since it only states "Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round."
What it doesnt say is "INSTEAD OF your normal strength modifier", or "in place of"
I agree it should be in place of, but if you do that does it not make the attack technically a two handed attack for purposes of power attack?
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I disagree, since it only states "Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round."
What it doesnt say is "INSTEAD OF your normal strength modifier", or "in place of"
I agree it should be in place of, but if you do that does it not make the attack technically a two handed attack for purposes of power attack?
Yes it does, and every time I've seen it used or referenced it has made it qualify for the 2hd benefits of power attack.
Here's the relevant quote from Power attack:
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
The only issue is of course mixing it with iterative attacks making it a secondary attack. Since power attack requires it to be a primary attack and this is no longer primary then you lose that 50% bonus.
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If you are going to make a statement such as this, then show your work. If you believe it works differently then how everyone was taught then include references showing why you think it works that way and examples of what it means in play.
Also if you are not going to read how power attack works then you may wish to avoid these discussions. As written under power attack ANY primary natural attack that does 1.5*str bonus benefits from the 50% bonus on power attack. Period.
Finally, every other feat/ability in the game that lets you apply your str bonus twice to damage specifically states that it is applied twice, this one doesn't. If you wish to read it that way for your games that's fine but that's not how the rules as written have ever handled it.
Division and Multiplication go at the same time left to right.
Addition and subtraction go at the same time left to right.
This is why I hate stupid teachers who teach PEMDAS. People start thinking you run through the line completely for multiplication then completely for division. You don't. You do them left to right as you go along on the same pass. Every college math and engineering teacher will smack you upside the head for doing otherwise.
EDIT:
Yes it does, and every time I've seen it used or referenced it has made it qualify for the 2hd benefits of power attack.no it doesn't
While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.It does not say instead of or in place of anywhere in that feat. It says you add it.
Finally, ALL bestiary feats are flagged as applying to monsters. SOME players may qualify for them but that is up to your GM. ie don't bet on them being allowed.
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters,although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
Nothing there about being up to the GM (other than rule zero always making it up to GM).
Just about every bestiary feat can be qualified for by some class. Do you have any evidence (developer, book, whatnot) that they are not intended for player use?
- Gauss
Dragon Style would allow for 1.5 strength mod on the first attack, but the power attack rules say that in order -1 attacks for +3 damage the natural attack has to be primary attack and do 1.5 strength mod damage.
If a manufactured weapon is used the the natural attack reverts to being a secondary natural attack, and therefore does not qualify for the -1/+3 power attack rule.