Can a fighter beat (in damage output) an optimized eidolon?


Advice

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So someone i know started using an edolon and created a real monster, i start discussing with him that it's hard to belive that an eidolon can do more melee damage than a fighter... then he posted the eidolon build...

I was wondering if there's a way to build a fighter that out-damage this eidolon (see below), since i'm not familiar with summoner and with fighter i'm asking for help here :P

His build is:

Lvl 10
size: Large
hd: 8d10 + 24 = 68
Biped
AC 27 (3 dex + 2 shield - 1 size + 1 armor cravers + 10 natural armor)

Fort +9 reflex +5 (eludere) will +6 (devozione)

FOR 36
DEX 16
CON 17
INT 7
WIS 10
CHA 11

FEAT
Power Attack (-3/+ 6)
weapon finesse (Claws)
improved natural attack (Claws)
multiattack (bonus)
rending fury

Evolution (14)

6 Claws (2)
improved Claws (1)
rend (2)
Energy Attacks (Su) (2)
Improved Natural Armor +2 (1)
Large (4)
4 arms (2)

Equipped with: haste boots, heavy mitrhal shield, armor braces +1, +2 for belt

Attack:
6 Claws(haste)
+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22

Thanks in advance for any help.


Well, one of the reasons this thing seems so overpowered is probably, that it is illegaly build. ôO

For example, by my calculation it only adds up to 30+2 Strength:
16 Base
+4 Str Increase
+2 Ability Increase
+8 Size increase
+2 Belt

Also, he seems to have spent more evolutions points than he actually has. (Unless he is an half elf with extra evolutions.)

He paid only 2 Points for 4 additional claws, that should be 4 points. In addition, it seems as if two of those are on his limbs, which is borderline illegal/cheese on a biped in my opinion. ESPECIALLY if he is wearing Speed Boots. So he is actually missing a complete set of limbs which means he is another 2 Points short.

Plus, at Level 10 his Eidolon is only allowed to have a max of 5 natural attacks. Period.
Additionally he can't use the hand equipped with the Shield to make any attacks at all.

There might be things i have missed, but this is it for a cursory glance.

[edit] Another thing i just noticed, his attack bonus should only add up to +19(+16 with power attack) And why the hell does he have Weapon finesse, is that maybe Weapon Focus?[/edit]


Eidolon is illegal, right, but still a well built eidolon wont be out-DPRt by a fighter.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Archer fighter wins by the virtue of being able to hurt flying things, against which the Eidolon can only flap his arms and growl menacingly.


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#1 Ability Scores:

Strength is 4 points above what it should be, like Marten already mentioned.

Dexterity should be biped base 12, +4 for 10th level, -2 for Large evolution. That's 14 not 16 which also lowers AC and Reflex saving throw by 1.

#2 Feats:

Weapon Finesse should be weapon focus.

#3 Evolutions:

Claws: I am afraid that Marten is wrong about number of claws - each claws evolution grants 2 claw attacks, and first claw evolution (i.e. first 2 claw attacks) is free for biped eidolon so 2 evolution points spent on a total of 6 claw attacks would be right (but see below). He is right on the part noting that claws put on legs shouldn't be allowed to be used to deliver attacks while wearing boots nor does the arm that holds shield could be, so he is short on number of limbs to deliver full number of claw attacks.
Also, because the 10th level eidolon has a limit of five natural attacks possessed it could not be able to purchase claws evolution three times as it puts it above the limit (unless explicitly allowed by GM to buy single claw attack for a total of five claw attacks, still the remaining one claw would be on one of the legs and made unusable with boots of speed).

Improved damage (claws): It was stated by developers that it does not stack with Improved Natural Weapon (claws) feat.

Limbs: A total of four arms is correct as he starts with two free and bought a pair of arms for 2 evolution points.

#3 Derived statistics:

AC should get only +2 from Dexterity, but natural armor bonus should be 2 for base form, +8 for 10th level, +2 for improved natural armor evolution, +2 for large evolution for a total of +14. No shield bonus to AC as all arms are too occupied clawing opponents. Which gives a total of 26 (+1 armor, +2 Dex, +14 natural, -1 size). Haste would boost it back to listed 27, as it would increase Reflex save to listed value.

Attacks: 5 claws +20 (1d8+11) while haste is active. Without haste it's 4 claw attacks +19 (1d8+11). With power attack it turns into 5 claws +17 (1d8+17) with haste or 4 claws +16 (1d8+17) without.


Welp, yes. For some reason i was under the impression, that Claws were a 2 Point Evolution.


Drejk wrote:
stuff

Great analysis!

I think that one would get the fifth attack anyway by various means (bite for example).
Well, that's impressive, a fighter will be putting out more damage with a single hit, but the total damage should be lower by far (haste helps the fighter though).

I think I would be not too far off the target saying that a decent fighter with a +2 greatsword will be around +22/17 to hit, for 2d6+27 dmg (power attack included and gloves of dueling included, with +4 belt of str).
With haste its +23/+23/+18 for 2d6+27.


Also I was under the impression that eidolon's couldn't use shields either, however that could easily be me misreading or misunderstanding the rules.

Something else -- the eidolon is a chain and a chain is only as strong as its weakest link: We need to see the summoner as well to account for the possibility of weak defenses there too.

Personally I would go with either an archer fighter or a sword and board two weapon fighting.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also, since the Fighter will likely have a 17-20 crit range and Critical Focus, his overall DPR will be likely around or over the Eidolon.

Silver Crusade

Gorbacz wrote:
Archer fighter wins by the virtue of being able to hurt flying things, against which the Eidolon can only flap his arms and growl menacingly.

Maybe the eidolon in this case would be useless. Otherwise, it's a small thing for a lvl 10 Eidolon to pick up some wings for flight.

Dark Archive

Read the summoner. And then re-reading it. And then keep reading it. And then do it again like 20 times. The rules are complicated, but if followed, eidolons are powerful but reasonable.

The main advantage of the eidolon is that it's an eidolon; as in it's a class feature. It's still only part of the whole summoner bag of tricks. Even if it was destroyed for the day, the summon can still summon more monsters, have good spells, and fight as a d8 medium BAB class (like a monk!) if he chose to.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Also I was under the impression that eidolon's couldn't use shields either, however that could easily be me misreading or misunderstanding the rules.

Only armor is explicitly forbidden. Shield can be used as long as the eidolon has free arm to wield it and proficiency to avoid penalties (rendered moot by mithral shields with armor check penalty of 0). Personally, I'd prefer to share shield spell with my eidolon but not every summoner can spare spell or action to do this - and being surprised or even just denied the chance to prepare is weakness of this approach.


Drejk wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Also I was under the impression that eidolon's couldn't use shields either, however that could easily be me misreading or misunderstanding the rules.
Only armor is explicitly forbidden. Shield can be used as long as the eidolon has free arm to wield it and proficiency to avoid penalties (rendered moot by mithral shields with armor check penalty of 0). Personally, I'd prefer to share shield spell with my eidolon but not every summoner can spare spell or action to do this - and being surprised or even just denied the chance to prepare is weakness of this approach.

I can certainly understand where the position is coming from -- we've just always treated shields as a specific form of armor, since they have all the characteristics of armor minus the weight categories.

This isn't an argument for me being right, only an explanation of where I'm coming from.


Alright, i whipped up a terribad Fighter Build. Srsly, i wasn't even trying, this is merely for a sort of comparison.

Great Cookiecutter Fighter 10
Human
20BP
Size Large (Permanencied Enlarge Person)
Str 26 (16 Base,+2 Human,+2 Level,+2 Enlarge,+4 Belt)
Dex 13 (15 Base,-2 Enlarge)
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 8

HP(1st HD Full + 9 HD averaged): 59+10(Con)+10(Favored)= 79
AC: 10+13(Armor)+1 Dex -1(Size)+4 Shield(Potion)= 27
BAB: +10/+5

Abilities:
Armor Training 2 (Can move in Heavy)
Weapon Training 2(4 with Gloves)
-Heavy Blades
-Whatever the hell else

Feats:
Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Power Attack
Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Lunge
Furious Focus
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Improved Critical (Greatsword)

Gear:
Permanencied Enlarge Person
Boots of Speed
+2 Fullplate
+2 Greatsword
Belt of Strength +4
Gloves of Dueling
Shield Pots

Now for the fun part. Adding it all together(Beware of mistakes, this was done fairly hasty).
Normal Attack Routine(Hasted, Powered attack):

+26(3d6+27), +23(3d6+27), +18(3d6+27)

Those three attacks already average out to the same or higher damage as the eidolons full attack routine with a MUCH higher chance to connect. Add in the 17-20 Crit Range and you leave the Eidolon in the dust. And that is just the standard attack routine.

With Lunge you are looking at a threat range of 15ft, coupled with Whirlwind Attack for great hilarity you can potentially attack ANYTHING in range for +23(3d6+27)

And i am pretty sure this build is sub-optimal, as someone will probably point out.
[edit] Plus you have the funds to carry Coldiron, Adamantite and/or Mithral Versions of Greatswords around with you. For those pesky Damage Reductions that the Eidolon has no hope of ignoring.[/edit]
[edit2] Hah, forgot the size malus on attack rolls. [/edit2]


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Don't forget that enlarge person makes you Large, so you have a -1 size penalty to hit and AC. Enlarge person is only a net + to hit and +1 damage, really not worth it.

I get a +26 to hit. +7 for 24 Str, +10BAB, +2 WF/GWF, +2 Sword, +4 Weapon Training/Gloves of Dueling, +1 Haste.


Yeah, i mainly took it for the possible reach shenanigans and to have the fighter the same size category as the eidolon.


Well, plus the extra damage on the Enlarged weapon... 2d6 > 3d6 is an additional 3.5 per successful attack.


The two-handed fighter archetype adds about 4 points of damage to my build, not sure it's worth it.


And i am pretty sure you could swap out that whole Whirlwind Feat Tree for something much more effective. I just find the idea hilarious. In fact, you have 5 feats you could dump on the whole Archer Line of Feats and take the second Weapon Training for bows. All of a sudden you are just as deadly ranged as you are melee.


Suggestion on archetype for the fighter. I would recommend two handed fighter for the increase on damage with two handed weapons it gives


Also this is just a straight up no DR challenge. If you fight anything with DR the fighter will pull out way ahead even assuming if both have no way of overcoming the DR, other than shear damage.


I am not a fan of most of the Fighter archetypes to be honest. I don't like to lose Armor Training and potential versatiliy. But sure, for straight up face shredding damage it works.

You could also use the five feats from the whirlwind tree to instead go down the Dazzling Display, Intimidating Prowess, Shatter Defenses line of feats to make one TERRIFYING sonovab$*@%. This also gives you access to Deadly Stroke at Level 11 which means you can whack someone for +27(6d6+54, +1 Con BLEED). The Con bleed might not seem like much but for high HD enemies it can average out to a nice amount of passive bonus damage it loses every two rounds.


I've always liked the two handed fighter because yes they lose that 5/- DR but instead they get the ability to crit at will. Personally I've never once considered it a bad trade off considering the level after that you get a +1 crit multiplier and auto confirmation. Hello scythe?


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Have to agree. It's not a huge amount of damage, but at high levels the two handed fighter pays off. Say 30 strength at level 20. That's +10 strength modifier, and you're getting twice, not 1.5 of it. You also get twice power attack damage, not 1.5, so that's 24 instead of 18. Combined that's 11 damage more than someone else swinging the same great sword with the same stats. (plus your normal weapon training bonuses).

Then consider the auto crit ability, with a scythe. All of that extra damage gets multiplied. It's pretty awesome.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

A smart fighter would kill the summoner, not eidolon, first.


I would answer the original post by saying that a fighter with WBL will probably equal or exceed an Eidolon's DPR output, and a two-handed fighter can deal with DR better than the Eidolon (if the Eidolon is just using natural attacks). In a cash starved game, however, the Eidolon is just inherently better, needing far less gear to be awesome. The Eidolon can be effective with basically no gear at 10th level, since the Summoner will have tons of buff spells (mage armor, barkskin, haste, heroism, ect).

And at level 10, flight is not an issue since the Summoner can cast Overland flight on the Eidolon. Also, the Eidolon will probably have a much better AC then the fighter and can also get easy access to DR.


Eidolons can have sweet damage but in a comparison I would say that they each have zones of effectiveness.

Eidolon
Pros: can get many at full hit bonus natural attacks, can get many more attacks at near full hit bonus if you go multiweapon fighting route.

Also, a biped eidolon will have superior defenses to a fighter. ok fort, will save(devotion also helps) and high ac with little effort.

cons:
Thus against targets without DR or really high ac, eidolons could produce superior dpr.

Fighter
Pros: can get higher attack bonus and higher damage per hit meaning they can hit higher ac targets more easily and bypass DR more easily.

cons: Fighters have to reduce their offensive capability much more to have AC like an eidolon. Thus if a fighter were competing across both offensive and defensive fronts against an eidolon it would be harder to optimize the fighter sucessfully.

dpr competitions like some on here thus ignore both the eidolon's and fighters weakpoints. The defense minimums and target ac minimums we often see in a dpr comparison thread are often low.

The takeaway is that eidolon's have fare well against mid range ac targets. Fighters(since their hit bonus is normally 5-10 higher) start to win against enemies that the eidolon's hit percentages drop to 50-60%.


pure I've found the fighter can easily have a higher AC than the eidolon.

Armor helps.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I think it is impolite to not mention the summoner. The fighter can evade the eidolon, and kill it at it's source, the summoner.
To leave the achilles heel out is unfair.


The main perk of the Eidolon is that it is expendable. It can throw caution to the wind with regard to its saves and AC, and focus on an all-out assault.
Fighters (at least the non-suicidal ones) can't be that careless.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I still say, fighter versus summoner, the fighter wins, no matter how built his eidolon is, because the little guy behind the monster is just a wannabe wizard waiting to be cut down.


Abraham spalding wrote:

pure I've found the fighter can easily have a higher AC than the eidolon.

Armor helps.

well it has been awhile since I looked at faq's and errata so the eidolon's ac could have been nerfed.

But from equipment a fighter can get at most +14 from full plate and a max dex bonus of +5 toward the end. If he picks up a shield he can net 7 more ac but he loses a bit of his dpr advantage against DR.

An eidolon by the end has +18 nat armor w/o evolutions. +28 nat armor with imp nat armor evolution. Can benefit from mage armor and the shield spell(I do not feel like arguing about actual shields. I am not up to date on official paizo opinions. They may have already clarified their position on shields).

AC=29(end fighter w/o shield but max dex) vs AC=37(end biped eidolon w/mage armor, w/20 dex(standard), w/o nat armor evolutions).

A fighter can close the gap a little at the cost of offense(+7 from shield) but an eidolon can still go higher w/ their nat armor evolution.

Most anything else we can add to a fighter, can also be added to an eidolon(deflection bonuses, enhancement bonus to dex, defending weapons, etc) so I am gonna be lazy unless you want to flesh it out.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I still say, fighter versus summoner, the fighter wins, no matter how built his eidolon is, because the little guy behind the monster is just a wannabe wizard waiting to be cut down.

I am gonna say that ring of invisibility and a good stealth score went a long way when I played my summoner. I would let my eidolon hold attention while I buffed the party. Not a permanent solution but it helped me avoid a lot of caster targeting. Also if another full caster were in the party it was easy for them to be a more important target than me.


Although one thing that's worth noting when it comes to Fighter vs. Eidolon on the subject of equipment is that while both can get most of same gear, the Summoner is probably going to want some gear for themselves as well as needing to equip their Eidolon.

Dark Archive

blackbloodtroll wrote:
I still say, fighter versus summoner, the fighter wins, no matter how built his eidolon is, because the little guy behind the monster is just a wannabe wizard waiting to be cut down.

I would say you're missing some of the point of the discussion. This isn't about PvP, it's whether an eidolon can outperform a fighter in terms of filling a role in a party.

An eidolon cannot do this, but it has nothing to do with whether the fighter or summoner would win at fisticuffs.


Or the summoner can go synthesis and the fighter has to literally hack his way through the eidolon to get to the summoner

and yes there is very little that can out dpr an eidolon if it chooses to go quad and stack strength and natural attacks


Mergy wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I still say, fighter versus summoner, the fighter wins, no matter how built his eidolon is, because the little guy behind the monster is just a wannabe wizard waiting to be cut down.

I would say you're missing some of the point of the discussion. This isn't about PvP, it's whether an eidolon can outperform a fighter in terms of filling a role in a party.

An eidolon cannot do this, but it has nothing to do with whether the fighter or summoner would win at fisticuffs.

I am a fighter fan, so of course i agree with you. But i would like to know why you believe the eidolon can no fill the fighter role?


I have another question: say you're building an Eidolon for a skrimisher type build; who can hit for more damage on a single swing? Let's assume vanilla fighter and 2h archetype for comparison.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:
A smart fighter would kill the summoner, not eidolon, first.

A smart summoner wouldn't give the fighter the opportunity.

Dark Archive

Nicos wrote:
Mergy wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I still say, fighter versus summoner, the fighter wins, no matter how built his eidolon is, because the little guy behind the monster is just a wannabe wizard waiting to be cut down.

I would say you're missing some of the point of the discussion. This isn't about PvP, it's whether an eidolon can outperform a fighter in terms of filling a role in a party.

An eidolon cannot do this, but it has nothing to do with whether the fighter or summoner would win at fisticuffs.

I am a fighter fan, so of course i agree with you. But i would like to know why you believe the eidolon can no fill the fighter role?

The question is not whether an eidolon can fill the fighter role, which is physically-based DPR; the question is whether the eidolon can outperform the fighter in this role. It does not.

Yes, the eidolon can do melee DPS, and it can soak hits. No, it won't be better at it than an optimized fighter.


Mergy wrote:

The question is not whether an eidolon can fill the fighter role, which is physically-based DPR; the question is whether the eidolon can outperform the fighter in this role. It does not.

Yes, the eidolon can do melee DPS, and it can soak hits. No, it won't be better at it than an optimized fighter.

I'd say an optimized eidolon can do even more. Yes the fighter will get that nice 30% crit chance end game but he'll get it with 5 attacks. The eidolon gets more attacks, all at full BAB unless specified otherwise, then at a -2. He gets a much higher strength and magical items still work on him pushing his damage and to hit even higher

Dark Archive

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Mergy wrote:

The question is not whether an eidolon can fill the fighter role, which is physically-based DPR; the question is whether the eidolon can outperform the fighter in this role. It does not.

Yes, the eidolon can do melee DPS, and it can soak hits. No, it won't be better at it than an optimized fighter.

I'd say an optimized eidolon can do even more. Yes the fighter will get that nice 30% crit chance end game but he'll get it with 5 attacks. The eidolon gets more attacks, all at full BAB unless specified otherwise, then at a -2. He gets a much higher strength and magical items still work on him pushing his damage and to hit even higher

Except full BAB for an eidolon is equivalent to 3/4 BAB. Also, the summoner has to share magic items with the eidolon. Also, no he doesn't get a much higher strength; it should actually be about the same, except the eidolon doesn't get weapon training or a whole host of bonuses.

The eidolon starts pretty equal to the fighter, then gets worse. As it should be.


Mergy wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I still say, fighter versus summoner, the fighter wins, no matter how built his eidolon is, because the little guy behind the monster is just a wannabe wizard waiting to be cut down.

I would say you're missing some of the point of the discussion. This isn't about PvP, it's whether an eidolon can outperform a fighter in terms of filling a role in a party.

An eidolon cannot do this, but it has nothing to do with whether the fighter or summoner would win at fisticuffs.

Well.. if it was a cleric I'd agree with you since fisticuffs isn't their role, but fistecuffs are pretty much the entire reason you keep a fighter around.

A fighter largely comes down to AC HP DPR.

Dark Archive

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Mergy wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
I still say, fighter versus summoner, the fighter wins, no matter how built his eidolon is, because the little guy behind the monster is just a wannabe wizard waiting to be cut down.

I would say you're missing some of the point of the discussion. This isn't about PvP, it's whether an eidolon can outperform a fighter in terms of filling a role in a party.

An eidolon cannot do this, but it has nothing to do with whether the fighter or summoner would win at fisticuffs.

Well.. if it was a cleric I'd agree with you since fisticuffs isn't their role, but fistecuffs are pretty much the entire reason you keep a fighter around.

A fighter largely comes down to AC HP DPR.

But the original question wasn't "Who would win in a fight?", it was "Can a fighter out-damage an eidolon?"

Yes he can. Archer fighter by the largest margin; two-weapon fighter it would probably be not so good.


It depends on the build. If you build the build is not one that would do well in a game and is focused on damage only the the eidolon has a decent chance. If it is a build that takes the summoner's survival into consideration which it would in a real game then I think the fighter does better.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Would not the High BAB, weapon training, and the ability to better deal with DR, make the fighter win out?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Would not the High BAB, weapon training, and the ability to better deal with DR, make the fighter win out?

Do not forget the feats, a lot of feats.


Eidolon level 20

26 Evolution points
Half elf (1/4 Evolution Points/ Level) 5 points
Extra Evolution * 5 5 points

36 points

Quad 14 Strength
Huge 11 + 16 Strength 30 Strength
Natural leveling +8 Str 38 Strength
Natural eidolon ability increases +4 42 Strength
Belt of Strength + 6 48 Strength

Fighter won't even touch an eidolon's strength because they get a +16 untyped bonus to strength largest in the game. Please note I've only spent 11 of 36 points here. He also gets +8 untyped bonus from basic leveling so it stacks. Then to add insult to injury he gets +4 from leveling like a character would only 1 less. THEN HE CAN USE BELT OF STRENGTH A 36000 GOLD ITEM

From there you have 25 points
5 * Improved Natural Armor 5 20
Bite 1 19
3 * Claws 3 16
Rend 2 14
2 * Ability Increase (Wis) 4 10
Pounce 1 9
3 * Flight 5 4
2 * limbs 4 0

So Now we have a nice 48 Strength, a flight speed of 60 (Perfect), 7 attacks, one with a 1.5 modifer, and rend for another 1.5 modifier. Not to mention full attacks on charge, bonus to will save from the wisdom and a total +33 to its natural armor. We've spent 36000 and not a single one of its feats.

Feats
1 Weapon Focus (claws)
2 Improved Unarmed Strike
3 Dragon Style
4 Stunning Fist
5 Dragon Ferocity
6 Power attack
7 Iron Will
8 feral combat training (claws)

So now all claws get an extra 1.5 except the first which gets a 2.0

So the eidolon looks like this right now (please note all attacks are primary and get full BAB)

15 BAB + 19 Str + (1 Claws) - 4 Power Attack= 30 (31 Claws)

Then we grab one more thing, amulet of mighty fists +5 (125,000)

We've spent 161 k of a 20th level characters 860 k and he ends with

+ 34 Claw 1d8 + 55 (38 Str + 12 Pow attack + 5 amulet)
+ 33 Bite 2d6 + 41 (28 Str + 8 Pow attack + 5 amulet)
5* + 34 Claw 1d8 + 41
Rend 1d10 + 33

For a total before dr and assuming not one crit on 7 attacks

343 DPR (oops sorry this is base so you know guys)
373.5 DPR average

Oh and for fun his Stats are as follows
(remember not one piece of armor or magical item giving a bonus in here)
Speed 40
Flight 60 (Perfect)
Reach 15

CMB 36
CMD 50

HP 219
AC 45

Fort 14
Ref 13
Will 9

Little low on the will saves but he gets +4 versus enchantment and has no magic items there.

Edit: Sorry gave base and forgot to adjust damage die for size and Attack bonus for size, feel free to check anything else.


I do not know about Eidolon construction so I can not say anything about the build. But, i do not think the summoner will enjoy a fight in most dungeons, his Eidolon will be too big.


I think your numbers are off.

+48 str score is a +19 modifier to strength.

Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity push that up to +27

Power attack is +2 damage for every - 1 to hit with primary natural attacks.

You are -4 to hit so that gives you a +8. Now we are up to 35 points of damage.

The amulet of might fist makes it a +40 for damage.

edit:Nevermind we have the same results or close enough anyway.

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