So someone i know started using an edolon and created a real monster, i start discussing with him that it's hard to belive that an eidolon can do more melee damage than a fighter... then he posted the eidolon build...
I was wondering if there's a way to build a fighter that out-damage this eidolon (see below), since i'm not familiar with summoner and with fighter i'm asking for help here :P
His build is:
Lvl 10
size: Large
hd: 8d10 + 24 = 68
Biped
AC 27 (3 dex + 2 shield - 1 size + 1 armor cravers + 10 natural armor)
Fort +9 reflex +5 (eludere) will +6 (devozione)
FOR 36
DEX 16
CON 17
INT 7
WIS 10
CHA 11
FEAT
Power Attack (-3/+ 6)
weapon finesse (Claws)
improved natural attack (Claws)
multiattack (bonus)
rending fury
Evolution (14)
6 Claws (2)
improved Claws (1)
rend (2)
Energy Attacks (Su) (2)
Improved Natural Armor +2 (1)
Large (4)
4 arms (2)
Equipped with: haste boots, heavy mitrhal shield, armor braces +1, +2 for belt
Attack:
6 Claws(haste)
+22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22
Thanks in advance for any help.
Eidolon is illegal, right, but still a well built eidolon wont be out-DPRt by a fighter.
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Strength is 4 points above what it should be, like Marten already mentioned.
Dexterity should be biped base 12, +4 for 10th level, -2 for Large evolution. That's 14 not 16 which also lowers AC and Reflex saving throw by 1.
Weapon Finesse should be weapon focus.
Claws: I am afraid that Marten is wrong about number of claws - each claws evolution grants 2 claw attacks, and first claw evolution (i.e. first 2 claw attacks) is free for biped eidolon so 2 evolution points spent on a total of 6 claw attacks would be right (but see below). He is right on the part noting that claws put on legs shouldn't be allowed to be used to deliver attacks while wearing boots nor does the arm that holds shield could be, so he is short on number of limbs to deliver full number of claw attacks.
Also, because the 10th level eidolon has a limit of five natural attacks possessed it could not be able to purchase claws evolution three times as it puts it above the limit (unless explicitly allowed by GM to buy single claw attack for a total of five claw attacks, still the remaining one claw would be on one of the legs and made unusable with boots of speed).
Improved damage (claws): It was stated by developers that it does not stack with Improved Natural Weapon (claws) feat.
Limbs: A total of four arms is correct as he starts with two free and bought a pair of arms for 2 evolution points.
AC should get only +2 from Dexterity, but natural armor bonus should be 2 for base form, +8 for 10th level, +2 for improved natural armor evolution, +2 for large evolution for a total of +14. No shield bonus to AC as all arms are too occupied clawing opponents. Which gives a total of 26 (+1 armor, +2 Dex, +14 natural, -1 size). Haste would boost it back to listed 27, as it would increase Reflex save to listed value.
Attacks: 5 claws +20 (1d8+11) while haste is active. Without haste it's 4 claw attacks +19 (1d8+11). With power attack it turns into 5 claws +17 (1d8+17) with haste or 4 claws +16 (1d8+17) without.
stuff
Great analysis!
I think that one would get the fifth attack anyway by various means (bite for example).Well, that's impressive, a fighter will be putting out more damage with a single hit, but the total damage should be lower by far (haste helps the fighter though).
I think I would be not too far off the target saying that a decent fighter with a +2 greatsword will be around +22/17 to hit, for 2d6+27 dmg (power attack included and gloves of dueling included, with +4 belt of str).
With haste its +23/+23/+18 for 2d6+27.
Also I was under the impression that eidolon's couldn't use shields either, however that could easily be me misreading or misunderstanding the rules.
Something else -- the eidolon is a chain and a chain is only as strong as its weakest link: We need to see the summoner as well to account for the possibility of weak defenses there too.
Personally I would go with either an archer fighter or a sword and board two weapon fighting.
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Read the summoner. And then re-reading it. And then keep reading it. And then do it again like 20 times. The rules are complicated, but if followed, eidolons are powerful but reasonable.
The main advantage of the eidolon is that it's an eidolon; as in it's a class feature. It's still only part of the whole summoner bag of tricks. Even if it was destroyed for the day, the summon can still summon more monsters, have good spells, and fight as a d8 medium BAB class (like a monk!) if he chose to.
Also I was under the impression that eidolon's couldn't use shields either, however that could easily be me misreading or misunderstanding the rules.
Only armor is explicitly forbidden. Shield can be used as long as the eidolon has free arm to wield it and proficiency to avoid penalties (rendered moot by mithral shields with armor check penalty of 0). Personally, I'd prefer to share shield spell with my eidolon but not every summoner can spare spell or action to do this - and being surprised or even just denied the chance to prepare is weakness of this approach.
Also I was under the impression that eidolon's couldn't use shields either, however that could easily be me misreading or misunderstanding the rules.Only armor is explicitly forbidden. Shield can be used as long as the eidolon has free arm to wield it and proficiency to avoid penalties (rendered moot by mithral shields with armor check penalty of 0). Personally, I'd prefer to share shield spell with my eidolon but not every summoner can spare spell or action to do this - and being surprised or even just denied the chance to prepare is weakness of this approach.
I can certainly understand where the position is coming from -- we've just always treated shields as a specific form of armor, since they have all the characteristics of armor minus the weight categories.
This isn't an argument for me being right, only an explanation of where I'm coming from.
Don't forget that enlarge person makes you Large, so you have a -1 size penalty to hit and AC. Enlarge person is only a net + to hit and +1 damage, really not worth it.
I get a +26 to hit. +7 for 24 Str, +10BAB, +2 WF/GWF, +2 Sword, +4 Weapon Training/Gloves of Dueling, +1 Haste.
Well, plus the extra damage on the Enlarged weapon... 2d6 > 3d6 is an additional 3.5 per successful attack.
The two-handed fighter archetype adds about 4 points of damage to my build, not sure it's worth it.
pure I've found the fighter can easily have a higher AC than the eidolon.
Armor helps.
The main perk of the Eidolon is that it is expendable. It can throw caution to the wind with regard to its saves and AC, and focus on an all-out assault.
Fighters (at least the non-suicidal ones) can't be that careless.
Although one thing that's worth noting when it comes to Fighter vs. Eidolon on the subject of equipment is that while both can get most of same gear, the Summoner is probably going to want some gear for themselves as well as needing to equip their Eidolon.
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I still say, fighter versus summoner, the fighter wins, no matter how built his eidolon is, because the little guy behind the monster is just a wannabe wizard waiting to be cut down.
I would say you're missing some of the point of the discussion. This isn't about PvP, it's whether an eidolon can outperform a fighter in terms of filling a role in a party.
An eidolon cannot do this, but it has nothing to do with whether the fighter or summoner would win at fisticuffs.
I have another question: say you're building an Eidolon for a skrimisher type build; who can hit for more damage on a single swing? Let's assume vanilla fighter and 2h archetype for comparison.
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A smart fighter would kill the summoner, not eidolon, first.
A smart summoner wouldn't give the fighter the opportunity.
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I am a fighter fan, so of course i agree with you. But i would like to know why you believe the eidolon can no fill the fighter role?I still say, fighter versus summoner, the fighter wins, no matter how built his eidolon is, because the little guy behind the monster is just a wannabe wizard waiting to be cut down.I would say you're missing some of the point of the discussion. This isn't about PvP, it's whether an eidolon can outperform a fighter in terms of filling a role in a party.
An eidolon cannot do this, but it has nothing to do with whether the fighter or summoner would win at fisticuffs.
The question is not whether an eidolon can fill the fighter role, which is physically-based DPR; the question is whether the eidolon can outperform the fighter in this role. It does not.
Yes, the eidolon can do melee DPS, and it can soak hits. No, it won't be better at it than an optimized fighter.
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I'd say an optimized eidolon can do even more. Yes the fighter will get that nice 30% crit chance end game but he'll get it with 5 attacks. The eidolon gets more attacks, all at full BAB unless specified otherwise, then at a -2. He gets a much higher strength and magical items still work on him pushing his damage and to hit even higherThe question is not whether an eidolon can fill the fighter role, which is physically-based DPR; the question is whether the eidolon can outperform the fighter in this role. It does not.
Yes, the eidolon can do melee DPS, and it can soak hits. No, it won't be better at it than an optimized fighter.
Except full BAB for an eidolon is equivalent to 3/4 BAB. Also, the summoner has to share magic items with the eidolon. Also, no he doesn't get a much higher strength; it should actually be about the same, except the eidolon doesn't get weapon training or a whole host of bonuses.
The eidolon starts pretty equal to the fighter, then gets worse. As it should be.
I still say, fighter versus summoner, the fighter wins, no matter how built his eidolon is, because the little guy behind the monster is just a wannabe wizard waiting to be cut down.I would say you're missing some of the point of the discussion. This isn't about PvP, it's whether an eidolon can outperform a fighter in terms of filling a role in a party.
An eidolon cannot do this, but it has nothing to do with whether the fighter or summoner would win at fisticuffs.
Well.. if it was a cleric I'd agree with you since fisticuffs isn't their role, but fistecuffs are pretty much the entire reason you keep a fighter around.
A fighter largely comes down to AC HP DPR.
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I still say, fighter versus summoner, the fighter wins, no matter how built his eidolon is, because the little guy behind the monster is just a wannabe wizard waiting to be cut down.I would say you're missing some of the point of the discussion. This isn't about PvP, it's whether an eidolon can outperform a fighter in terms of filling a role in a party.
An eidolon cannot do this, but it has nothing to do with whether the fighter or summoner would win at fisticuffs.
Well.. if it was a cleric I'd agree with you since fisticuffs isn't their role, but fistecuffs are pretty much the entire reason you keep a fighter around.
A fighter largely comes down to AC HP DPR.
But the original question wasn't "Who would win in a fight?", it was "Can a fighter out-damage an eidolon?"
Yes he can. Archer fighter by the largest margin; two-weapon fighter it would probably be not so good.
It depends on the build. If you build the build is not one that would do well in a game and is focused on damage only the the eidolon has a decent chance. If it is a build that takes the summoner's survival into consideration which it would in a real game then I think the fighter does better.
I think your numbers are off.
+48 str score is a +19 modifier to strength.
Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity push that up to +27
Power attack is +2 damage for every - 1 to hit with primary natural attacks.
You are -4 to hit so that gives you a +8. Now we are up to 35 points of damage.
The amulet of might fist makes it a +40 for damage.
edit:Nevermind we have the same results or close enough anyway.