It depends on the build. If you build the build is not one that would do well in a game and is focused on damage only the the eidolon has a decent chance. If it is a build that takes the summoner's survival into consideration which it would in a real game then I think the fighter does better.
I see my theory is holding true. Even large creatures have trouble moving in most dungeons, and with a will save of 9 he might join team evil.
In short eleclipse it all depends...
Improved damage (claws): It was stated by developers that it does not stack with Improved Natural Weapon (claws) feat.
Thanks for the reply!
Where i can find this data?
That last eidolon kinda reminds me of Marcus Muri, Fighter 16, from my Kingmaker game. About same AC, HP, #att, rend... Eidolon got less attack bonus, more strength. Arguably higher damage average, but at 20, +34 is not gonna hit on all attacks.
Marcus hits (yes, he HITS) on 7+ attacks every round (mostly 8 since hasted). Every crit he delivers grants him a free shield bash. His sword and shield are both heavily enchanted, and he has yet to NOT kill something that he gets to full-attack. He has AC of 40+, and does not afraid of anything.
Could an optimized eidolon outdamage him? Maybe, but Marcus is medium sized, and can go wherever he pleases, and still work at 100% capacity.
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Why is your Summoner going to waste his time choosing items like Amulet of Mighty Fists and Belts of Giant Strength etc... It's easy to flip through the books and choose items to build a PC with just for the argument at the time but let's look at it from a practical realistic point of view. Also, being huge gives you several minuses.
When you look at everything the fighter will always pull ahead because of the sheer amount of feats that he gets.
Quad 14 Strength
Huge 11 + 16 Strength 30 Strength
Natural leveling +8 Str 38 Strength
Natural eidolon ability increases +4 42 Strength
Belt of Strength + 6 48 Strength
Eidolons max out at 15 HD, so they only get 3 ability score increases, not 4. That brings the total to 47 strength.
Thomas: I work on the factual things, not the basics. Basic info does not really matter at lv10+. You have friends buffing you, enemies use spells to the same effect, etc. Sure, the eidolon is better when there is not a single buff happening, but in my 20 years as a D/GM, I rarely ever saw that happen. Much less past lv10.
Marcus, past buffs has more than +40 to hit, and a sleugh of feats to increase bonuses and mitigate penalties. And enemies mostly buff themselves closer to 40 at least, and 50ish at CRs over 20 in my game. (I am of the Darwinian school of thought when it comes to enemies; if you survive long enough to be CR15+, you are doing something right, and should be represented as such in your actions. Like carrying a potion of mage armor and similar stuff.)
Sure, the eidolon could be buffed as well, I don't know the rest of the party. The point is: You are rarely alone, and you certainly don't win fights alone, which makes this whole thread kinda moot.
That chart shows that Eidolons get an ability score increase at their 4th, 8th, and 12th HD, or the Summoner's 5th, 10th, and 15th level. Note that the last line, the 20th for a Summoner, does not show an ability score increase.
Improved damage (claws): It was stated by developers that it does not stack with Improved Natural Weapon (claws) feat.
Thanks for the reply!
Where i can find this data?
At best, that's an unsubstantiated developer opinion, as it isn't in the Errata or FAQ.
It only has as much effect on your home game as you want it to have.
Which developer was it? I ask because if it was the rules team then it should be noted that since they make the rules most of what they can can be counted on as to how the game was intended, even if they did not put it into the FAQ.
It is not much difference than if I heard my dad tell my brother to send me a message, but since he did not tell me directly my response being "he did not tell me that".
I think that was Sean but I am not 100% sure, it was a few months ago, at least. This is why I noted that it's dev's statement (sorry, I should write "shouldn't stack").
BTW: Anyone knows who developed Summoner in the first place?
Gnomes.
Nope, gnomes only stole summoning secrets from drow.
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Thomas Long:
I still don't buy it, but please show a legal eidolon build at the level you choose if you would like to prove it. Keep in mind any items you give to the eidolon are items the summoner cannot have, so I would be reluctant to believe that the eidolon's headband slot is being used, that he has two rings, etc. It is already pretty bad that the summoner will be without a belt slot.
How about a range of levels? Level 3, level 8, level 13, and level 18. Naturally against average monsters at 3, 8, 13, and 18.
The summoner and eidolon cannot share any magic item slots. The posted lvl 20 eidolon build has a few issues, like qualifying for the stunning fist feat.
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Well then you aren't reading it correctly, which explains why you think the eidolon can outperform a PC.
A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time. In addition, magic items interfere with the summoner’s connection to his eidolon. As a result, the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conf lict, the items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used by the eidolon become dormant. The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item.
The summoner is a very powerful class, but it only becomes overpowered when you don't understand the rules governing it.
Anyway, level 3 fighter, no archetype:
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +1
DEFENCE
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 18 (+7 armour, +1 Dex, +1 trait)
Hp 30 (3d10+9)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +6
OFFENCE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee masterwork greatsword +8 (2d6+4/19-20) or cestus +6 (1d4+3/19-20)
Ranged composite longbow +4 (1d8+3/x3)
STATISTICS
Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +6, CMD 17
Feats Cleave, Iron Will, Furious Focus, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Skills Acrobatics +2, Climb +7, Swim +7; AC penalty -2
Traits Defender of the Society, Indomitable Faith
Gear cestus, masterwork greatsword, composite longbow and 20 arrows, +1 breastplate, cloak of resistance +1
For the sake of DPR calculation, I'm going to be lazy and just throw in all crits like they confirm. That's going to result in slightly higher DPR than should be.
0.7 x 14 x 1.1 = 10.78 DPR
I think the eidolon may be at its most competitive at this point.
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The summoner and eidolon cannot share any magic item slots. The posted lvl 20 eidolon build has a few issues, like qualifying for the stunning fist feat.how does he not qualify? he has enough 18 dex, 14 wis (I gave him +4) he'll definitely reach +8 BAB and he has IUS
So your summoner isn't going to be wearing any magic items? No charisma headband?
Here you go: this is page 58 of the advanced players guide:
"Link (Ex): A summoner and his eidolon share a mental
link allows for communication across any distance (as
long as they are on the same plane). This communication
is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to
his eidolon at any time. In addition, magic items interfere
with the summoner’s connection to his eidolon. As a result,
the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For
example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon
can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conf lict, the
items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used
by the eidolon become dormant. The eidolon must possess
the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item."
edit: oh my response was directed at this statement:
"and I just ran through the entire summoner page. There is not one reference to magic items or slots. I used the search functions with "slot", "item", "Magic", and "magic item" Not only did it not say that it made not one reference to it anywhere"
Are there an restrictions for what item slots a quad eidolon can use? I could have swore there was something for animal companions. I mean its hard to explain how a huge cat thing can wear gloves, rings, or boots for instance.
Also for the guy who said end fighter has AC of 29... Yeah, focusing on plate and shields is nice, but a no dex bonus fighter can have +13 from armor, + 5 deflection (ring) and +5 natural (amulet) for a AC of 33 with no dex and no shield. Add 12 if you use heavy shield and have +5 dex bonus for an AC of 45.
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Eidolon
** spoiler omitted **
I'm confused as to why the bite does more damage than the claws. Are you counting that as a second evolution point? I'll assume your numbers are correct.
You haven't actually done any calculations, but here:
Bite +5 against target AC 15 = 55% (9.5 average damage)
Claw +6 = 60% (7.5 average damage)
Non-power attacking full attack = 14.93625 DPR
.55 x 9.5 x 1.05 = 5.48625
2x (.6 x 7.5 x 1.05) = 9.45
Power attacking full attack = 17.01 DPR
.5 x 11.5 x 1.05 = 6.0375
2x (.55 x 9.5 x 1.05) = 10.9725
So your eidolon definitely blows the level 3 fighter out of the water at this point, assuming he gets to use all his attacks. Pounce is a good way to pull this off, but anytime your eidolon doesn't get all his attacks, the fighter pulls ahead. I'll be posting level 8 soon.
Also, please try to tone down the rudeness. Thanks.
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Init +6; Senses Perception +1
DEFENCE
AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 22 (+10 armour, +1 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 trait)
Hp 72 (8d10+24)
Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +8
OFFENCE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 greatsword +19/+14 (2d6+13/17-20) or masterwork cestus +14/+9 (1d4+5/19-20)
Ranged masterwork composite longbow +11/+6 (1d8+5/x3)
STATISTICS
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +13, CMD 26
Feats Improved Critical (Greatsword), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Lunge, Power Attack, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Skills Acrobatics +7, Climb +13, Swim +13; AC penalty -3
Traits Defender of the Society, Indomitable Faith
SQ Armour Training II, Weapon Training (Heavy Blades +1)
Gear masterwork cestus, +1 greatsword, masterwork composite (Str +5) longbow and 20 arrows, +1 full plate, belt of giant's strength +2, cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +1
AC target for CR 8 is 21: at this point the fighter misses with his first attack only on a 1.
.95 x 29 x 1.2 = 33.06
.55 x 29 x 1.2 = 19.14
Power Attacking single attack is of course 40.06, because Vital Strike adds 7 more damage on average.
I don't think the eidolon can compete with this, but surprise me.
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I'm confused as to why the bite does more damage than the claws. Are you counting that as a second evolution point? I'll assume your numbers are correct.Eidolon
** spoiler omitted **
I'm sorry but it seems like you aren't even reading and thats annoying.
Furthermore reread bite. Quad's naturally get bite. But bite says it can be taken if you already have one and it puts the strength modifier to 1.5 so you get 1.5 * strength and 3 for the power attack
I am aware of that. You're also partially incorrect: he does get 1.5 x strength, but he does not get -1/+3 for Power Attack. Nowhere in the evolution does it say he does.
Yeah, the monsters get huge and larger at the high CRs, which is why I personally believe that the actual unmodded monsters at high CR should be rare. (I mean, it kinda breaks the world if suddenly just because the PCs reach high level that giant monsters boil out of the ground and become common). I personally believe that the PCs should be facing more leveled or templated med/large enemies, and its how I've generally run higher level stuff.
But even if there is need to get into tight places, you can just reduce person the eidolon (keep a wand or scroll for it). Reduce person doesn't actually debuff as much as the huge size evolution increases it.
From page 131 of the core rulebook:
"This bonus to
damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making
an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed
weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon
that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modif ier on damage
rolls."
so does the Eidolon's attacks count as a primary attack? I don't know the summoner class well enough on this one.
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I am aware of that. You're also partially incorrect: he does get 1.5 x strength, but he does not get -1/+3 for Power Attack. Nowhere in the evolution does it say he does.I'm confused as to why the bite does more damage than the claws. Are you counting that as a second evolution point? I'll assume your numbers are correct.Eidolon
** spoiler omitted **
I'm sorry but it seems like you aren't even reading and thats annoying.
Furthermore reread bite. Quad's naturally get bite. But bite says it can be taken if you already have one and it puts the strength modifier to 1.5 so you get 1.5 * strength and 3 for the power attack
Its not in the evolution. Its in power attack
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Oh fair enough. Thanks! :) I'm almost done fighter 13, by the by. Posting in a sec.
Are there an restrictions for what item slots a quad eidolon can use? I could have swore there was something for animal companions. I mean its hard to explain how a huge cat thing can wear gloves, rings, or boots for instance.
Also for the guy who said end fighter has AC of 29... Yeah, focusing on plate and shields is nice, but a no dex bonus fighter can have +13 from armor, + 5 deflection (ring) and +5 natural (amulet) for a AC of 33 with no dex and no shield. Add 12 if you use heavy shield and have +5 dex bonus for an AC of 45.
If you think an AC of 45 is good for an end game fighter, you're not trying very hard.
I manage 45 as a wizard.
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A smart fighter would kill the summoner, not eidolon, first.
A smart summoner wouldn't give the fighter the opportunity.
If you think an AC of 45 is good for an end game fighter, you're not trying very hard.
I manage 45 as a wizard.
Anything you can do,
I can do better.I can do anything
Better than you.
No, you can't.
Yes, I can. No, you can't.
Yes, I can. No, you can't.
Yes, I can,
Yes, I can!
Anything you can be
I can be greater.
Sooner or later,
I'm greater than you.
No, you're not. Yes, I am.
No, you're not. Yes, I am.
No, you're NOT!. Yes, I am.
Yes, I am!
:)
While he has lots of attacks, the miss rate on the eidolon seems alot higher. Generally speaking i always find tgese fighter vs casters pet discussions often ignore how fragile the pets are.
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Eidolon
** spoiler omitted **
So how are you today?
Pretty good! So this is eidolon 8, right?
Target AC of 21:
He's got two unarmed strikes if he wants them at +15/+10 (1d3+9); this would however lower his other natural attacks significantly. I'll do calculations for a few of his options, and I'll give him an amulet of mighty fists +1.
Claws +9/+9 (1d6+7) average 10.5; 45%/45%
Bite +8 (1d8+7) average 11.5; 40%
Slam +8 (2d6+7) average 14; 40%
.7 x 16.5 x 1.05 = 12.1275
.45 x 16.5 x 1.05 = 7.79625
.45 x 10.5 x 1.05 = 4.96125 x 2 = 9.9225
.4 x 11.5 x 1.05 = 4.83
.4 x 14 x 1.05 = 5.88
Total DPR = 40.55625
So that's pretty impressive. Nickle and dime attacks add up pretty fast.
Claws +14/+14 (1d6+14) average 17.5; 70%/70%
Bite +13 (1d8+20) average 24.5; 65%
Slam +13 (2d6+14) average 21; 65%
.7 x 17.5 x 1.05 = 12.8625 x 2 = 25.725
.65 x 24.5 x 1.05 = 16.72125
.65 x 21 x 1.05 = 14.3325
Total DPR = 56.77875
So the eidolon still wins on a full attack, although the margin has been narrowed significantly; less than 5 DPR between the two. When the eidolon cannot make a full attack, the fighter wins, no question.
Anything you can do,
I can do better.
I can do anything
Better than you.
I'm not built for anything specific or in response to any particular thread.
45 AC is just not that difficult to achieve at level 20, for any class.
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N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +1
DEFENCE
AC 30, touch 16, flat-footed 28 (+12 armour, +2 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 insight, +2 natural armour, +1 trait)
Hp 141 (13d10+65)
Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +11 (+14 vs. fear)
OFFENCE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 adamantine greatsword +29/+24/+19 (2d6+20/17-20) or masterwork cestus +21/+16/+11 (1d4+6/19-20)
Ranged +1 composite longbow +20/+15/+10 (1d8+6/x3)
STATISTICS
Str 23, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +13; CMB +19, CMD 33
Feats Blind-Fight, Critical Focus, Improved Critical (Greatsword), Improved Initiative, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Lunge, Power Attack, Staggering Critical, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Skills Acrobatics +13, Climb +20, Swim +20; AC penalty -2
Traits Defender of the Society, Indomitable Faith
SQ Armour Training III, Weapon Training (Bows +1, Heavy Blades +2)
Gear masterwork cestus, +3 adamantine greatsword, +1 composite (Str +6) longbow and 20 arrows, +3 full plate, amulet of natural armour +2, belt of physical might +4 (str, con), boots of speed, cloak of resistance +3, ioun stone (cracked pale green prism [+1 to attacks]), ioun stone (dusty rose prism), ring of protection +2
Note: I'm not putting any outside buffs on, but I will do calculations with and without boots of speed. Target AC is 28.
.95 x 39 x 1.2 = 44.46
.65 x 39 x 1.2 = 30.42
.4 x 39 x 1.2 = 18.72
Total DPR = 93.6
Single Attack DPR is 58.46, because of Improved Vital Strike
.95 x 39 x 1.2 = 44.6 x 2 = 88.92
.7 x 39 x 1.2 = 32.76
.45 x 39 x 1.2 = 21.06
Total DPR including haste = 142.74
Single Attack DPR remains the same of course.