Help me make a Holy Gun. That can murder everything


Advice

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My new character was killed last night along with 3/4 of the party.

I am going to go mysterious stranger 1/holy gun 8.

does any body have any suggestions?

so far i have a +2 distance pistol.

Does that mean because the pistol now has 40 ft as its first range increment that the other 4 range increments are basically the same as a musket now?

my starting stats are 16,15 12 11,11,and 14.

i was going to pump the 15 to a 16 and add the +2 for being human to it and make it 18 dex

then buy a head band of charisma +4 for my charisma and then buy a belt of dex +2 and increase my dex. and then give my self a 14 con.

then possibly buy a ion stone of dex+2 also but does the bonus form an 8,000 ion stone stack with the belt of dex?

then +3 mithril chain shirt.

At this point we have been getting our butts handed to us. by ghosts and demons and such. \any idea on how to make the best feats possible to be a high damage dealer.

I want to be a effective damage dealing pistol wielding gunslinger.

this i just my verbal diarrhea so there isnt a bunch of rhyme or reason to the order of this post .


I personally like pistoleer 5 and holy gun 15. I just like the extra damage regardless of spending grit and regardless you will need dex for this build. Either way I would put reliable on your pistol over +2. That chance at failure kills mid combat, also in order to get multiple shots per round you will have to use alch cartridges, which increases misfire by another one. If you want another way to inc your damage use a double barrel pistol. For a -4 you shoot 2 bullets, 2d8>1d8

Dark Archive

I would stay away from holy gun in favour of the regular paladin, or possibly divine hunter for free precise shot. I'll post a build in a sec.


I like the holy gun because I can convert the gunsmithing feat to extra grit. and th mysterious stranger is CHA based which puts multiple abilities under one stat grit, saves, smite. ect.
Mergy love to see your
build.

Dark Archive

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Okay, I like paladin 2 (divine hunter)/gunslinger 7 (mysterious stranger). What this gives you is the paladin's smite evil 1/day and charisma to all saves, along with free precise shot and a limited way to heal yourself. The gunslinger is the main part of this because that's what is improving your gun abilities.

Stats include level bumps but not magic items. You'll need a belt of dexterity +2 to qualify for the feats, but that shouldn't be an issue.

Str 11, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 20

Pal 1 Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload
Pal 2
Gun 3 Rapid Shot
Gun 4
Gun 5 Deadly Aim
Gun 6 Two-Weapon Fighting
Gun 7 Weapon Focus: Pistol
Gun 8
Gun 9 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

The mysterious stranger's option to ignore a number of misfires equal to his charisma is gold for this build, because you will be firing 5-6 shots per round. With two +2 pistols and a belt of dexterity +2, your attack routine with Deadly Aim will be +9/+9/+9/+4/+4 (1d8+6/x4); of course they're all touch attacks so you've quite a good chance to hit with most. If you use a grit point your damage increases to 1d8+11, and if you smite, your chance to hit is +14, +15 if you grabbed a headband of charisma +2.

This attack routine involves slightly cheesy use of weapon cords. Run it by your GM before you try it, as he might veto it mid-combat otherwise.

Your saving throws will be ridiculous; without any items you have Fort +15, Ref +12, Will +12.


Mergy wrote:

Okay, I like paladin 2 (divine hunter)/gunslinger 7 (mysterious stranger). What this gives you is the paladin's smite evil 1/day and charisma to all saves, along with free precise shot and a limited way to heal yourself. The gunslinger is the main part of this because that's what is improving your gun abilities.

Stats include level bumps but not magic items. You'll need a belt of dexterity +2 to qualify for the feats, but that shouldn't be an issue.

Str 11, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 20

Pal 1 Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload
Pal 2
Gun 3 Rapid Shot
Gun 4
Gun 5 Deadly Aim
Gun 6 Two-Weapon Fighting
Gun 7 Weapon Focus: Pistol
Gun 8
Gun 9 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

The mysterious stranger's option to ignore a number of misfires equal to his charisma is gold for this build, because you will be firing 5-6 shots per round. With two +2 pistols and a belt of dexterity +2, your attack routine with Deadly Aim will be +9/+9/+9/+4/+4 (1d8+6/x4); of course they're all touch attacks so you've quite a good chance to hit with most. If you use a grit point your damage increases to 1d8+11, and if you smite, your chance to hit is +14, +15 if you grabbed a headband of charisma +2.

This attack routine involves slightly cheesy use of weapon cords. Run it by your GM before you try it, as he might veto it mid-combat otherwise.

Your saving throws will be ridiculous; without any items you have Fort +15, Ref +12, Will +12.

that is a great build and I approve


The big loss for Holy Gun that makes it an awful choice, is the fact that they lose Smite Evil per day and get it back in the form of per attack. Not a great trade. Divine Hunter has much better bonuses


dunebugg wrote:
The big loss for Holy Gun that makes it an awful choice, is the fact that they lose Smite Evil per day and get it back in the form of per attack. Not a great trade. Divine Hunter has much better bonuses

I am not being argumentative but I am confused wouldn't a per x attacks be way better than once a day? am I missing something?


dunebugg wrote:
The big loss for Holy Gun that makes it an awful choice, is the fact that they lose Smite Evil per day and get it back in the form of per attack. Not a great trade. Divine Hunter has much better bonuses

But they determine if an enemy is evil by shooting them. Best method ever!

Dark Archive

By the way, if you're not happy with those to-hit rolls, they'll improve at a rate of 1 per level, while your enemy's touch AC does not improve very often at all. If you are having trouble hitting, you can easily also drop Rapid Shot for +2 to your remaining four attacks.

Leveling up, I would fully recommend more levels of gunslinger, at least to gunslinger 11, for Signature Deed with Focussed Aim; at that point you no longer need to spend your limited grit adding your charisma to your damage, so long as you keep a single point in reserve.

At level 13 (gunslinger 11), it wouldn't hurt to grab a few more levels of paladin for a second smite evil and a few spells, although you may be just as happy going gunslinger the rest of the way.

Dark Archive

Lobolusk wrote:
dunebugg wrote:
The big loss for Holy Gun that makes it an awful choice, is the fact that they lose Smite Evil per day and get it back in the form of per attack. Not a great trade. Divine Hunter has much better bonuses
I am not being argumentative but I am confused wouldn't a per x attacks be way better than once a day? am I missing something?

Smiting Shot is a standard action. That means only one shot per round.


Mergy wrote:

By the way, if you're not happy with those to-hit rolls, they'll improve at a rate of 1 per level, while your enemy's touch AC does not improve very often at all. If you are having trouble hitting, you can easily also drop Rapid Shot for +2 to your remaining four attacks.

Leveling up, I would fully recommend more levels of gunslinger, at least to gunslinger 11, for Signature Deed with Focussed Aim; at that point you no longer need to spend your limited grit adding your charisma to your damage, so long as you keep a single point in reserve.

At level 13 (gunslinger 11), it wouldn't hurt to grab a few more levels of paladin for a second smite evil and a few spells, although you may be just as happy going gunslinger the rest of the way.

I am really liking it honestly that is why I come to these forums because I don't think outside the box per se......thanks


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@mergy

what I don't want to do TWF is there a substitution build you can think of?

I don't think my Dm will go for the weapon cord build.

EDIT: couldn't I do a quick draw instead of a weapon cord? that would make more sense? fire fire fire, pull out the second un and finish the job? or can I reverse Quick Draw? put the gun in my waist?

Dark Archive

Thank you!

Let's see, other questions you had involved magic items. No, a headband and an ioun stone won't stack as they both provide an enhancement bonus. A basic shopping list for this character would be:

9,300 gp +2 pistol
9,300 gp +2 pistol
1,200 gp 200 alchemical cartridges (they will go really fast)
16,000 gp headband of alluring charisma +4
4,000 gp belt of incredible dexterity +2
1,350 gp +1 chain shirt
1,000 gp cloak of resistance +1
2,000 gp amulet of natural armour +1

45,150 gp total spent. If you're concerned about misfires, make them +1 reliable pistols instead, so you only misfire on a 1 with paper cartridges.

Lobolusk wrote:

@mergy

what I don't want to do TWF is there a substitution build you can think of?

I don't think my Dm will go for the weapon cord build.

EDIT: couldn't I do a quick draw instead of a weapon cord? that would make more sense? fire fire fire, pull out the second un and finish the job? or can I reverse Quick Draw? put the gun in my waist?

If you don't want to TWF you have some spare feats, but your damage will decrease by quite a bit. Quick Draw will not increase the number of attacks you can make.

The weapon cord TWF thing goes like this:

Fire off main hand shots with Rapid Shot +x/+x/+x, drop your pistol as a free action and pull up your second pistol (on a weapon cord) as a swift action, allowing you to load and fire your second pistol for its iteratives. If your GM doesn't like that, then there isn't really a way for a gunslinger to use two guns, so I would suggest going for a single double-barrelled pistol instead.


Mergy, I love your stuff here. I am working on something similar- if you could drop by the post below and offer your thoughts I would greatly appreciate it.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5rig?Paladin-Mysterious-Stranger-build


Mergy wrote:

Thank you!

Let's see, other questions you had involved magic items. No, a headband and an ioun stone won't stack as they both provide an enhancement bonus. A basic shopping list for this character would be:

9,300 gp +2 pistol
9,300 gp +2 pistol
1,200 gp 200 alchemical cartridges (they will go really fast)
16,000 gp headband of alluring charisma +4
4,000 gp belt of incredible dexterity +2
1,350 gp +1 chain shirt
1,000 gp cloak of resistance +1
2,000 gp amulet of natural armour +1

45,150 gp total spent. If you're concerned about misfires, make them +1 reliable pistols instead, so you only misfire on a 1 with paper cartridges.

Lobolusk wrote:

@mergy

what I don't want to do TWF is there a substitution build you can think of?

I don't think my Dm will go for the weapon cord build.

EDIT: couldn't I do a quick draw instead of a weapon cord? that would make more sense? fire fire fire, pull out the second un and finish the job? or can I reverse Quick Draw? put the gun in my waist?

If you don't want to TWF you have some spare feats, but your damage will decrease by quite a bit. Quick Draw will not increase the number of attacks you can make.

The weapon cord TWF thing goes like this:

Fire off main hand shots with Rapid Shot +x/+x/+x, drop your pistol as a free action and pull up your second pistol (on a weapon cord) as a swift action, allowing you to load and fire your second pistol for its iteratives. If your GM doesn't like that, then there isn't really a way for a gunslinger to use two guns, so I would suggest going for a single double-barrelled pistol instead.

like every thing I may drop the cloak of resistance and the AMNATARM and go +2 armor

Dark Archive

You'll have -1 to all saves and the same AC if you do that.


@mergy

walk me through the damage modifiers I thought that the Charisma Damage was a swift action and I could only have 1 swift action a round?

also Thanks again for all the work you have done. what if I wanted to only use one pistol what would my attack be with deadly aim and rapid shot? and can I use many shot?

Dark Archive

Yai, you're right. Looks like single pistol is the only way, oops.

So go double-barrelled instead and fire both barrels every time. With the build and shopping list (replacing two +2 pistols for a +3 double barrel), your attacks should be +7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2 touch (1d8+6/x4).

Going single-barrelled means much more accurate but only +11/+11/+6.


Mergy wrote:

Yai, you're right. Looks like single pistol is the only way, oops.

So go double-barrelled instead and fire both barrels every time. With the build and shopping list (replacing two +2 pistols for a +3 double barrel), your attacks should be +7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2 touch (1d8+6/x4).

Going single-barrelled means much more accurate but only +11/+11/+6.

I am going to go for Single pistol I won't be the damage king but way better then before.

thanks for all your hard work.

Dark Archive

Well actually, if you smite evil and then next turn use a grit point, with a charisma of 24 you'll be going +18/+18/+13 touch (1d8+15/x4), which is pretty hefty. If you're hasted by an ally, +19/+19/+19/+14. Still pretty damage king. You could easily replace your TWF feats with Far Shot and Quick Draw.

Smite evil is only once per day for this build right now, but for the big tough enemy, or the enemy with the DR, or even just the fast guy with the high touch AC, you can really hit hard.


Is it possible to go two double barrel? So a double barrel in each hand. Also since its touch attack the enemy AC is typically going to be lower. Which makes your numbers for attack not too horrible if you think about it.


Mergy wrote:

Well actually, if you smite evil and then next turn use a grit point, with a charisma of 24 you'll be going +18/+18/+13 touch (1d8+15/x4), which is pretty hefty. If you're hasted by an ally, +19/+19/+19/+14. Still pretty damage king. You could easily replace your TWF feats with Far Shot and Quick Draw.

Smite evil is only once per day for this build right now, but for the big tough enemy, or the enemy with the DR, or even just the fast guy with the high touch AC, you can really hit hard.

I like that can breakdown the math for me on the damage? so I can se where you are getting a +15

Dark Archive

+3 from the weapon
+6 from Deadly Aim
+2 from paladin level (smite evil)
+7 from charisma

Also, very likely +1 from Point-Blank Shot for +16.


I am not expert in firearms, but are not more levels in paladin more useful than the levels of gunslinger? The more the levels you take in paladin the more you can smite for example. And the higher levles of mysterious stranger are not that good, for example they lack guntraining.

Dark Archive

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The reason for taking more levels of gunslinger include grabbing the better deeds, as well as qualifying for Signature Deed. After level 11, paladin levels may be slightly better, especially the push to paladin 4 for a second smite evil and a few first level spells.

It may also be worth considering three levels of fighter (weaponmaster) along with gloves of dueling for a net +3 to attacks and damage. To finish the build I submitted, edited to make up for not being able to make use of TWF:

Pal 1 Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload
Pal 2
Gun 3 Rapid Shot
Gun 4
Gun 5 Deadly Aim
Gun 6 Weapon Focus: Pistol
Gun 7 Clustered Shots
Gun 8
Gun 9 Quick-Draw
Gun10 Improved Critical: Pistol
Gun11 Improved Precise Shot
Gun12
Gun13 Signature Deed
Pal14
Pal15 Critical Focus
Fig16 Dodge
Fig17 Mobility, Shot on the Run
Fig18
Fig19 Parting Shot, Weapon Specialization: Pistol
Pal20

Hrmm. The problem is it runs out of good feats to take after Signature Deed. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.


Mergy, I consider myself very knowledgeable about gunslinger and you have enlightened me. I never thought about using your signature deed to get that damage to every shot. another tree that might be solid but does alittle less damage would be going down the snap shot tree. To do it effectively though its about a 4 feat commitment though and I sort of like the wep spec/ gloves of dueling.

Grand Lodge

HUmmmmnnnn... Not sure a Holy gun could or would MURDER anything. Read the alignment notes under the Assassin class for better reasoning, but in short murder is the purview of evil, thus not holy.


Mergy wrote:

The reason for taking more levels of gunslinger include grabbing the better deeds, as well as qualifying for Signature Deed. After level 11, paladin levels may be slightly better, especially the push to paladin 4 for a second smite evil and a few first level spells.

It may also be worth considering three levels of fighter (weaponmaster) along with gloves of dueling for a net +3 to attacks and damage. To finish the build I submitted, edited to make up for not being able to make use of TWF:

Pal 1 Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload
Pal 2
Gun 3 Rapid Shot
Gun 4
Gun 5 Deadly Aim
Gun 6 Weapon Focus: Pistol
Gun 7 Clustered Shots
Gun 8
Gun 9 Quick-Draw
Gun10 Improved Critical: Pistol
Gun11 Improved Precise Shot
Gun12
Gun13 Signature Deed
Pal14
Pal15 Critical Focus
Fig16 Dodge
Fig17 Mobility, Shot on the Run
Fig18
Fig19 Parting Shot, Weapon Specialization: Pistol
Pal20

Hrmm. The problem is it runs out of good feats to take after Signature Deed. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.

what about mysterious pistolero? under the Pistolero it does not say it replaces gun training technically.

EDIT: wouldn't snap shot be worth it? or vital strike?

Dark Archive

I'm not a big fan of Snap Shot, so I didn't even consider it; then again, I usually go with longbow over pistol. Yeah, Snap Shot and Improved, followed up by Combat Reflexes would be stronger than the stupid things I put in at the end.


Yeah, if your pistoleer you have to be in the middle, might as well punish ppl for coming at you. Which they will. Regular snap shot is nothing special BUT improved map shot is, threatening 10 feat is nice


Mergy wrote:
I'm not a big fan of Snap Shot, so I didn't even consider it; then again, I usually go with longbow over pistol. Yeah, Snap Shot and Improved, followed up by Combat Reflexes would be stronger than the stupid things I put in at the end.

I think i will go pally then go gunslinger all the way. I don't like to do to many big level switches. the other thing is it fits the back story that I was a paladin but after murdering the entire town of Tull in self defense I became a gunslinger, and now have to slay the serpent demon god to get my paladinhood back.

plus if I am a gunslinger I can shoot a dude in the face and not have to be all lawfull stupid about it.

Dark Archive

Well... you don't want to be an ex-paladin or you lose your massive save bonuses, smite evil, and lay on hands.

Keep to the paladin code.


Mergy wrote:

Well... you don't want to be an ex-paladin or you lose your massive save bonuses, smite evil, and lay on hands.

Keep to the paladin code.

your right crap. okay scratch the face shooting


So Mergy
I will follow your plan but I will add in Pistolero also and throw in snap shot and improved snapshot after deadly aim. the Signature deed is amazing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It is cool if you get the merciful enchantment on your gun. Cover the face of evil with a bukkake of righteous lead.


CrankyRWMage wrote:
HUmmmmnnnn... Not sure a Holy gun could or would MURDER anything. Read the alignment notes under the Assassin class for better reasoning, but in short murder is the purview of evil, thus not holy.

a figure of speech, by murder I mean put down evil like the dog it is.

mostly ghosts and demons. and technically you cant murder a ghost it is already dead.

Dark Archive

Eh... I think adding pistolero is taking advantage of a misprint. Pistolero's pistol training is obviously meant to replace gun training.


meh... each his own.

no different then resting in a house having 4 ghosts attack and all scream at the same time causing you to make 4 will saves in a row. and if you fail you are "paranoid" and cant accept aid or help. and every time you make the save per week. it reduces you dc by your charisma modifier minimum 1. I had a 11 cha. then the ghosts proceed to auto hit every round for 7d6 damage. and kill the whole party. I took my musket and loaded an Adamantium bullet and put it in my mouth. but then decided that if i am to go I will go shooting a ghost in the face. as i pulled the trigger the Ghost got its AAO and hit me for like 32 damage i died my finger jerking to fire the musket. all at level 8. SO i am okay with a little damage boost. I honestly don't see it as a misprint.

Dark Archive

It's a misprint the same way that a standard pistolero gets both Gun Training and Pistol Training at the same level with the same bonuses; they forgot to add the line at the end of Pistol Training that says "This replaces Gun Training".

As you say, however, to each his own. Your will save will certainly be better as a paladin/mysterious stranger; I don't think pistolero is necessary, and when errata comes down I don't think it will be legal.


Mergy wrote:

It's a misprint the same way that a standard pistolero gets both Gun Training and Pistol Training at the same level with the same bonuses; they forgot to add the line at the end of Pistol Training that says "This replaces Gun Training".

As you say, however, to each his own. Your will save will certainly be better as a paladin/mysterious stranger; I don't think pistolero is necessary, and when errata comes down I don't think it will be legal.

you can do both they dont overlap to my understanding you can be a mysterious Pistolero

Dark Archive

It's a misprint, but if your GM lets you, go for it.


Mergy, I noticed you chose Shot on the Run as one of the high-lvl feats. I started a thread a week or so ago about that particular feat, and couldn't come up with a lot of justification for it.

That said, I am just curious how you imagine SotR would work in combat, and why it might be a good choice. I'd love to see a reason for taking it, as it seems thematically cool; I just can't see the mechanical reason.

Dark Archive

Actually, I was just pretty tired when I put it down, and couldn't come up with better. Snap Shot is a major improvement.


I will probably stick with mysterious stranger and go Damphir as my race.
make my self a self hating monster smiter

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, Lay on Hands for quick suicide?

Dark Archive

You'd be better off with antipaladin as a dhampir, what with the whole "hurt by positive energy" thing.


Mergy wrote:
You'd be better off with antipaladin as a dhampir, what with the whole "hurt by positive energy" thing.

yeah most likely but it will be pretty cool like blade except for the awesomeness and vampire stuff.


Maybe there ist some paladin archetype that replace lay of hands. That way it will not be a wasted class feature

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I suggest one of the alternate tieflings for the dark feel. Div-Spawn tiefling will fit this role well.

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