Is golem crafting worth it?


Advice


I was talking to a friend and he brought up crafting golems. We chatted a bit and I came away with two basic thoughts. Crafting golems sounds like a lot of fun, and they made craftings golems way too dificult.

Is there any way to up caster level for purposes of crafting golems?

A build that lends it self to this craft from the get go?

Is it something just left to NPC's no matter what you do?

Any tips of input is always welcome. Thanks!

Silver Crusade

I can't tell you much about the mechanics or how one would optimize it. What I can tell you is that if you can craft decent golems it must certainly be worth doing. The reason?

You could imitate that one boss from Final Fantasy IV. "Go, Balnab!" "Grrr...!" And then your golem named Balnab punches someone. Possibly you for calling him that, possibly your enemies. Either way I think this is one of the ways you can Win at Pathfinder.

Sorry I'm not much help on the mechanics side, but you definitely have my well-wishes for the above silly reason.


Speaking as a level 12 cleric who completed Council of Thieves with it at level 11...

pretty useless in my opinion. Everything is too expensive and the creatures you create too fragile now that they can be critialled.

What they should do is make "temporary" constructions that basically work like long term summons and then "break down" after a while or randomly (e.g. when it rolls a 1) - kinda like how Firearms work.


As early as level 5 (7 for non-wizards) you can craft animated objects on the cheap.

A medium construct would have a price of only 5K and that should be plenty affordable at that level.

The craft DC would be 18, which is also trivial.

See here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/animated-objec t


Knight Magenta wrote:

As early as level 5 (7 for non-wizards) you can craft animated objects on the cheap.

A medium construct would have a price of only 5K and that should be plenty affordable at that level.

The craft DC would be 18, which is also trivial.

See here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/animated-objec t

5K for a construct, I'm assuming you mean Iron Cobra?

*blink*

Whoa, what is this? When were these rules added?


If I am reading things correctly (they are a bit scattered) that dosen't quite work out. To simply make a generic 'animated object' with craft construct you need to be 11th level or higher no matter the size and if you use Permanency you'll need to be level 9. Or did I miss something some where?


You can ignore required spells by increasing the Spellcraft DC by 5 per requirement ignored.


Yes, but all constructs have a Caster Level (CL) and what I can find for generic animated object is CL 11, which I can not ignore. I can get around that by using animate object and casting permanency on it, in which case 9th level is the soonest I can do so. Unless there is some way to alter caster level or other wise give a helping hand to crafting constructs. Something I have yet to find but was hoping existed.


Darksyde wrote:
Yes, but all constructs have a Caster Level (CL) and what I can find for generic animated object is CL 11, which I can not ignore. I can get around that by using animate object and casting permanency on it, in which case 9th level is the soonest I can do so. Unless there is some way to alter caster level or other wise give a helping hand to crafting constructs. Something I have yet to find but was hoping existed.

actuly unless the caster lvl is in the reqirements section its not the requirment for crafting

here we have the entery for scarecrow witch dose have a minimum caster lvl required (Bolding is mine)

d20pfsrd said wrote:

Scarecrow

CL 6th; Price 15,500 gp
CONSTRUCTION

Requirements Craft Construct, command, fear, geas/quest, hypnotic pattern, creator must be caster level 6th; Skill Craft (carpentry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (farmer) DC 12; Cost 8,000 gp

and here we have a generic animated object notes the line above isn't there

d20pfsrd said wrote:

Animated Object

CL varies (equal to the animated object’s HD); Price varies (cost of object + [(animated object’s HD + CP) × 1,000])
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Construct, animate objects, permanency; Skill optional (determined by object being created; crafting the object reduces its cost); Cost 1/2 price.

edit: note the requirements for the generic Animated construct are Craft Construct, animate objects, permanency the 2 spells we can ignore by adding 5 to the dc for each we chose to ignore so all we are truly required is the Craft Construct feat


You can ignore CL just like any other object, unless the requirements say "Caster must be X level" or "+X for each Y levels" for things like weapon enchantments.

You can also change the CL of the item when you create it. What I do is increase it so when the item does get Dispelled the DC is higher for the enemy caster.

Example:

CL 7 of an item normally, but lets say I'm level 5. So the DC is:

5 - Base
+7 - The Item's Caster Level
+5 - My level is below the caster level of the item
===
DC 17

Let's say you have a +9 to Spellcraft so you take 10 and you make the item no problem.

Let say you want to increase the item's caster level since you can easily make the item. Well you increase it by 2 from 7 to 9.

5 - Base
+9 - The Item's Caster Level (7+2)
+5 - My level is below the caster level of the item
===
DC 19

You can still take 10, no problem and the item's caster level is higher vs. enemy caster Dispel attempts.

Now lets say you want to speed up the creation:

5 - Base
+9 - The Item's Caster Level
+5 - My level is below the caster level of the item
+5 - speed up item creation
===
DC 24

Now you have to roll and hope you roll a 5 or greater.

Do I have anything wrong?


But there is a listing for Animated Object in the ultimate magic book -

Animated Object
CL 11th; Price as determined by CR
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Construct, animate objects, permanency; Skill Spellcraft or appropriate Craft skill; Cost 1/2 price

Which I take to mean the construction information line if useing Craft Construct instead of animate object. I may be wrong but then I don't know what that is in reference to.


In the building rules I have access to it stipulates that "Regardless, the creator must meet all item creation feats and minimum caster level requirements." My understanding of which is that no matter what I do I /have/ to have both the appropriate caster level and all the listed feats or I simply can not do it. Again, if I am miss-reading or understanding something please let me know. I just think it is a neat character concept but it just seems like so much build up that you don't really get to do much along the way.

Grand Lodge

harmor wrote:

Do I have anything wrong?

Animated Objects wrote:

Craft Construct creates permanent animated objects not susceptible to dispelling and antimagic.

No need to worry about puming the CL.

Grand Lodge

Darksyde wrote:
In the building rules I have access to it stipulates that "Regardless, the creator must meet all item creation feats and minimum caster level requirements." My understanding of which is that no matter what I do I /have/ to have both the appropriate caster level and all the listed feats or I simply can not do it. Again, if I am miss-reading or understanding something please let me know. I just think it is a neat character concept but it just seems like so much build up that you don't really get to do much along the way.

As Wildmonsters said, only certain constructs (like the Scarecrow) have caster level requirement. The listed CL for any magic item is not a requirement.

If that's not good enough for you, check the Alternative crafting rules published in Carrion Crown. It changes the CL of the animated object to equal its HD.


Darksyde, when any magic item (including constructs) state: CL 11th that is not a requirement. That is how they set the DC. DC = 11+5 = 16 in the case of an animated object. Only when they state something like 'Caster must be X level' is it an actual requirement.

(Sidenote: That requirement is debated by some to be like all other requirements. Optional and subject to a +5 DC increase if not present.)

Regarding the value of crafting constructs. I am GMing Council of Thieves. Starting at level 7 the wizard of the party began making a Graven Guardian (deity: Iomedae). He completed it about halfway through level 7. It has nearly been destroyed once but otherwise has worked well to distract the lesser enemies while the party Paladin and Rogue tag team the main enemies.

- Gauss


Gotcha. So ignore CL and lookw for 'caster must be' yada yada. Cool. Thank you.

Anything else out there to help out with construction or making a better construct?


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One other note: the biggest problem with Crafting Golems is keeping them intact. This problem is because Make Whole (the only spell in PF to repair a construct) has a casting time of 10minutes. This is why the wizard in the game I GM chose the Graven Guardian (has fast healing 2).

- Gauss

Edit: other main reason he went with Graven Guardian: he can cast spells on it. He hits it with Armor and other spells to buff it. Most golems are immune to magic. The Graven Guardian is not. It is a double edged sword though since a blast spell is what nearly took it down.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If you make a golem, you can later mod it to wear it as armor.

Grand Lodge

Gauss wrote:
Make Whole (the only spell in PF to repair a construct) has a casting time of 10minutes.

Rapid Repair is a 5th level spell from Ultimate Magic that grants fast healing 5 for 1 round/caster level.


Rapid Repair doesnt repair a construct, it grants the construct fast healing 5. However, thank you for the information.

What I was trying to get across is that back in 3.5 there were a variety of construct repairing spells (Repair light damage) that basically did the same thing as the cure spells. Make Whole was expanded to fill that slot, then nerfed to 10min casting time.

- Gauss

Grand Lodge

Clerics can take Forge Variant Channelling, which repairs constructs.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Artifice domain paired with a Construct Channel Brick and a Scavenger's Stone, will make a construct focused cleric very capable of keeping their constructs alive.


Thank you very much for all the suggestions and clarafications.

It mentions in the ultimate magic book that you can ignore some of the requirements if you have enough of a skill bonus like when making magic items. I don't seem to be able to find this reference though. How high dose your skill have to be and how many pre-recs can you ignore?

Grand Lodge

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Darksyde wrote:

Thank you very much for all the suggestions and clarafications.

It mentions in the ultimate magic book that you can ignore some of the requirements if you have enough of a skill bonus like when making magic items. I don't seem to be able to find this reference though. How high dose your skill have to be and how many pre-recs can you ignore?

The text you're looking for: Magic Item Creation.

You can ignore as many prerequisites as you want, but the DC of the Craft or Spellcraft check increases by 5 for each one. The only prerequistes you can't ignore for creating constructs are magic item crafting feats.

So, if you're crafting an Animated Object, normally the DC of the Spellcraft check is 16 (5 base + 11 from caster level of the object). In addition, there are two prerequisites: Animate Objects and Permanency. These are both spells. If you're missing both spells, you can craft the Animated Object if you make a Spellcraft check at DC 26. If you're missing only one of the spells, the DC is 21.

You could technically craft an Adamantine Golem without meeting any of the prerequisites if you could somehow make a DC 70 Craft (Sculpture) check.


That I understand. What I didn't quite get was the statement in ultimate magic -

"Like when crafting magic items, a creator with a sufficiently high skill bonus may ignore these requirements."

Which, to me, made it sound like at certain skill ranks you can ignore a certain number of the requirements without penalty. So this is really just an odd way of confirming that if you want to skip a requirement you should have at least 5 ranks per requirement so they balance out?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You can take 10 when you craft, so with a high modifier, you can just ignore some things without fail.


Pimp Hat On: Golemcraft 101

It's for 3.5 so needs updating, but its specifically tailored to creating constructs as soon as possible that are useful.

Pimp Hat Off


Also to increase your crafting check result, you could try getting a bunch of low level assistants (Leadership Feat or Simulacrums maybe) to Aid Another on you (they just have to make DC 10) and you get +2 from each of them. Think of it as a large research laboratory or factory.

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