Celestial Armor


Rules Questions


From the Pathfinder SRD:

Quote:
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

Now, I want to say this was done on top of Mithral Chain to allow such a high bonus to Dex. Is this true?


The numbers don't match up exactly, but I think the intent was that it is mithral.


Ganny wrote:

From the Pathfinder SRD:

Quote:
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
Now, I want to say this was done on top of Mithral Chain to allow such a high bonus to Dex. Is this true?

Not true. The item is made of silver or gold.

There's a post by JJ (I'm trying to locate it now) indicating...
1. this is not mithral
2. you cannot make this item from mithral to 'make it better'
3. it is the magical properties of the armor that adjusts the dex bonus in this case

Edit: Found it.

Source

JJ wrote:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.

Source

JJ wrote:
In any event, celestial armor isn't an armor quality. It's a unique kind of armor, and thus has a unique pricing. It does weird stuff; it's really light, it's made of gold, it's REALLY nice looking, it lets you fly, and so on. Its pricing is a result of ALL of these elements, and that's pretty much that.


Huh, thanks Aeryn. Just a note though...that's James, not SKR.


Oooh, very nice.

[Edit] Thanks for the find.


Alright so i understand u cant make it from mithril to up the max dex even higher, but answer me this. Can you enchant it with a higher magical +, say +5 celestial armor instead of the base +3 and even father can u add other enhancements like fortification, energy resistance etc. And if so i assume youd only be able to take it to the max of +10, if so what is the base celestial armors overall +? +3 from enhancement, but what does the fly, high dex bonus and lower sf chance add to that?

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WerePox47 wrote:
Alright so i understand u cant make it from mithril to up the max dex even higher, but answer me this. Can you enchant it with a higher magical +, say +5 celestial armor instead of the base +3 and even father can u add other enhancements like fortification, energy resistance etc. And if so i assume youd only be able to take it to the max of +10, if so what is the base celestial armors overall +? +3 from enhancement, but what does the fly, high dex bonus and lower sf chance add to that?

There's nothing in the rules (that I'm aware of) to allow the upgrading of named magic items such as Celestial Armor. If you're interested for a home game, talk to your GM. If you play in PFS, it's explicitly disallowed in the Official FAQ.


Alrighty so say its allowed for a home game what would you put the base celestials overall enchantment at? Personally id put it at +5 total, but its cost tells me its somwhere b/t +4 and +5... thoughts?


Cheapy wrote:
Huh, thanks Aeryn. Just a note though...that's James, not SKR.

Rofl... whoopsies... not sure why I had SKR on my mind, I was looking right at JJ's name as I typed it.

WerePox47 wrote:
Alrighty so say its allowed for a home game what would you put the base celestials overall enchantment at? Personally id put it at +5 total, but its cost tells me its somwhere b/t +4 and +5... thoughts?

It's basically a +3 armor with a magical property on it that isn't counting as an armor bonus. There are several armor properties that only have a gold cost without increasing the enhancement bonus of the armor (i.e. Shadowed/Glamoured), why not consider this one of them?

So to go from a +3 to a +5, simply subtract 9k from 25k to get 16k retail cost, 8k if you craft it yourself.


I would put it at +3 and it has an additional enchantment of flight (at 1.5 cost). This makes the math simpler since you just pay the same as any other armor upgraded from 3 to 4 (or whatever).

Jiggy believes that since no rule says you can upgrade named armor or weapons you can't, that is a valid interpretation though I disagree.

I believe since no rule says named armor (or weapons) are an exception to the normal enchanting that you could enchant them normally.

EDIT: Added the 't to correctly interpret Jiggy. Ughbash is perhaps the worlds worst typist.


Ok, let's see. The entire armor costs 22,400 gp. Masterwork chainmail is 300 gp, so the magic stuff on it costs 22,100 total.

+3 armor costs 9,000 gp, +4 armor costs 16,000 gp and +5 armor 25,000.
+5 total and therefore a +2 for the special abilities is therefor to expensive already.

So I would go with the special abilities costing a +1 and 6,100 gp (half if self-made), that would account for the cost of Celestial armor.

You could price them entirely as a flatcost of 13,100 gp, but I think the enchantment is good enought to valid a scaling cost.

You could also say it's worth +2 for simplicity sake and the fact that celestial is cheaper is because of how all the magic interacts there in perfect harmony. If you have more or less actual enhancement bonus on it, and/or put it on a different piece of armor than chainmail, it gets a bit more expensive.

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Ughbash wrote:
Jiggy believes that since no rule says you can upgrade named armor or weapons you can, that is a valid interpretation though I disagree.

I'm guessing that one of those two "can"s is supposed to have an apostrophe and a "t" afterwards? Depending on which one it is, though, I can't tell whether you've represented me correctly or not. :P


Quatar wrote:

Ok, let's see. The entire armor costs 22,400 gp. Masterwork chainmail is 300 gp, so the magic stuff on it costs 22,100 total.

+3 armor costs 9,000 gp, +4 armor costs 16,000 gp and +5 armor 25,000.
+5 total and therefore a +2 for the special abilities is therefor to expensive already.

So I would go with the special abilities costing a +1 and 6,100 gp (half if self-made), that would account for the cost of Celestial armor.

You could price them entirely as a flatcost of 13,100 gp, but I think the enchantment is good enought to valid a scaling cost.

You could also say it's worth +2 for simplicity sake and the fact that celestial is cheaper is because of how all the magic interacts there in perfect harmony. If you have more or less actual enhancement bonus on it, and/or put it on a different piece of armor than chainmail, it gets a bit more expensive.

Honestly, if the devs wanted the special ability to count as an enhancement bonus, they would have indicated as such on the item's stat block. It's simply a +3 armor with a magical property on top of it. That magical property has a static non-scaling cost (non-scaling because you're not meant to attempt to duplicate its properties elsewhere).

If you start trying to say that the "celestial" enchant on the armor is a discounted enhancement bonus, you're going to confuse yourself and everyone else who is trying to use it. Enhancement bonuses have a flat cost as per the table, I would strongly recommend not messing with it and just call it a magical bonus...

Celestial armor, for all intents and purposes, is +3 chainmail with a Wondrous Item property on it.


There is a celestial plate in one of the APs (CotCT, I think).


Found it:
D20PFSRD

It appears in CotCT PF #11, Skeletons of Scarwall.

Ruyan.


By RAW Celestial armor cost 22,400 and is a +3 armor. there's no +4 or +5 version of it and there's no Celestial Full Plate either.
If the devs have wanted to give it a non-scaling cost, they would have said so.

So yes, you can turn that argument around just as well. This whole discussion of how much it's worth is because we're already in house-rule territory here. You can price it however you want, I was saying what I thought be a fair price, you're free to disagree.

But don't try to argue with RAW here, because by RAW it's not allowed either way.

Edit: Ok, I was wrong on account on the Celestial Full Plate. It only increases the Max Dex by +5 over the original while celestial armor is a +6, so it's not a 1:1 adjustment.
Also again it's a special type of armor, not a full plate with a Celestial enchantment.


Ok so my pally/sorc/dd is 17th level and he has craft magic arms and armor do yall think it be legit to make a set of +5 Celestial Fullplate of Heavy Fortification for a total of 114600 half price so 57300 for him to craft it? And if so does +14ac/+7max dex, 20%spell fail, -3 armor check, and considered medium armor sound ok?


WerePox47 wrote:
Ok so my pally/sorc/dd is 17th level and he has craft magic arms and armor do yall think it be legit to make a set of +5 Celestial Fullplate of Heavy Fortification for a total of 114600 half price so 57300 for him to craft it? And if so does +14ac/+7max dex, 20%spell fail, -3 armor check, and considered medium armor sound ok?

It will take more than 3 years to do it though (only 1k/day), so why not?


9 years late Kot. Werepox likely won't care about your answer. Also, you dropped a decimal place on that answer - 114.6K/1K = 115 days not 1146 days.


What's up with all the thread necromancy going on lately? <.<


Algarik wrote:
What's up with all the thread necromancy going on lately? <.<

Since we have no new sources being added, necromancy isn't that bad. But replying to someone from 9 years ago is a bit odd, since they are likely not around anymore.


Melkiador wrote:
Algarik wrote:
What's up with all the thread necromancy going on lately? <.<
Since we have no new sources being added, necromancy isn't that bad. But replying to someone from 9 years ago is a bit odd, since they are likely not around anymore.

Oh yeah, some are legit, but sometime it's just weird lol.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I love the completely oblivious answers... like how did you even find a 9yo question to reply to as if the conversation happened yesterday without seeing the date?

What information does your brain find important enough to actually read? You read enough words to form a response, then took the time to type and post that response... yet, the entire time, never once noticed the date on the post you are responding to? What the actual f!ck, over? Lol.

If it was a snake, it would have bit you...


VoodistMonk wrote:

I love the completely oblivious answers... like how did you even find a 9yo question to reply to as if the conversation happened yesterday without seeing the date?

What information does your brain find important enough to actually read? You read enough words to form a response, then took the time to type and post that response... yet, the entire time, never once noticed the date on the post you are responding to? What the actual f!ck, over? Lol.

If it was a snake, it would have bit you...

High Int, Low Wis. #justnecromancerthings


That happens because someone googles a question and then looks at the first thread addressing the topic. Often because they have some stake in a table disagreement. Then they get so caught up in the discussion that they don't bother to check the date.


At least they are searching...

I don't know what is worse, necro'ing something that has been dead forever, or starting another thread that has been answered a million times.


This was a fun necro. I'm not sure I'd seen that JJ quote before. I haven't had a character with celestial armor before though.

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