Greetings everyone, I have been a d&d player for around 5 years now, untill last month however I never had a gaming group. This has changed as i am now the dm to several "noobs" who have never played before and i am also a new player to a long established gaming group.
With this basic information I now lay down my Dilemma: The players for whom I dm are not into it as much as I am, its very much a hack n' slash campaign with the only npc they remember being a downright scoundrel who acts as the tieves guild's go-between. I am wondering how I can get them involved in the role-playing aspects as well rather than "lets go kill things and take the stuff".
I would also like to have advice on how to get them into the campaign itself, it's the forgotten realms but none of them own the sourcebook and I cant let them borrow it when i worry about its dissapearance.
Am I asking to much if i also ask for advise on how to ft in with a group thats been playing for years with each other and I have never played a live group before.
From own experience, you can't make people roleplay. If you don't like the way your group is playing
1.talk to them about it - see if you can find common ground
2. change group.
Good luck!
Rhavin,
Here is a site with a ton of good roleplaying tips
http://www.roleplayingtips.com/index.php
good luck
Try putting the players into a situation where, in order to get what they want, they are going to have to interact with the NPCs rather than killing them. And let them know that from the beginning. Then do what you can to make your NPCs interesting and memorable. It doesn't have to be anything really complicated--just one thing that stands out so they'll remember that person. DMGII has a lot of useful stuff for new DMs, also, Ray Winninger's old Dungeoncraft articles from a few year back had some good tips for creating memorable NPCs. If your players are all fairly new to the game, and if they come to it with a background in computer RPGs, which are all pretty heavy into kill-everything-that-moves-and-grab-the-loot, it's possible that they just don't "get it" as far as the roleplaying goes. Give them some time to get used to the mechanics, and then give them some dilemmas that can't be solved with the sword.
--Fang
Don't forget to ham it up during normal "hack and slash" play. While you may run a straight forward, "these are the enemies, now roll of initiative" style encounter, make sure that you take time to thrown out some cliched phrases. It may not sound like great roleplaying, but every time you start in with the, "We will feast on your livers, and cut out your hearts and show them to you," they may start to feel compelled to throw out a similarly cliched response instead of just rolling dice and announcing damage.
Eventually they may have so much fun throwing out responses to your villains over the top pronouncements, that they may actually start to talk back to NPCs that you have talk to them in roleplaying situations.
Just a thought. Sometimes easing into something new is the best way to do something.
Another thing that might help them get into the campaign is not necessarily letting them read the whole campaign setting, cuz that's just an awful lot of info for a new player to absorb, along with everything else, but maybe just write up something for them about the area they come from. Give them some background. Don't throw a ton of information at them all at once--just little pieces here and there. And have them write up backgrounds for their characters. There's a couple of people in my group who really hate writing, so I trick them into it. Each week, they get a character development question to think about over the week, and at the beginning of each session, we talk about their answers. They don't have to write them down, but I take notes on their answers. Takes a little longer than having everyone show up with a couple of pages of background, but that way they don't feel like you're making them do "homework". And once they get into it, they might surprise you. We just started the Shackled City at the beginning of the summer, and the guy who absolutely hates to write gave me a three page background the first night we played.
The character background isn't just for them, though. It's a great tool for you. I like to read character backgrounds with an eye towards things I can use later on. The old enemy, the missing sibling, the jilted lover, all of these people in a character's past can come back to haunt them later on.
Having a well thought out background for your character might help you fit into your new group that you're playing with, too.
Hope this helps!
--Fang
Director of Game Development
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I think a certain way to get them invested in their characters, which promotes role-playing more than anything else is to require them to come up with some sort of past storyline for their character. Start them out at 1st level and then create the adventures to include things related to the characters. This doesn't have to be direct inclusion where a PC has to save a family member or loved one, but sometimes that helps if the PCs don't react to the more subtle nudgings. Everyday social pressures can initiate great reactions to low-level characters trying to eek out an existance in this most turbulent of worlds.
To be a good gm you only need a couple things to start; get rid of your pride; meaning self consciousness; and role play your npc's give them real lives and personalities; and clearly and consisely describe the scene, include smells, weather, sounds; stuff like that. If you can do this, your players will follow and your game will grow and life will be good. Little things make your game great; do stuff like send a note to the rouge telling him he smells sulphur; maybe the ranger finds some burn marks; if they tell the mage he can use his knowledge to remark a fireball was cast here; stuff like this builds teamwork.
Never let the rules get in the way of having a great game; sometimes they do, sometimes we dont all understand the rules in the same way; and there are a lot of bleeding rules and variations; I would advise at first to stay with core books and limit what books your using; you can always expand later.
I had a group of 'novice' players once... To introduce them to the game (and the campaign) I started small.
I made them go through old AD&D Module 'Treasure Hunt'. In this adventure, the players start as slaves (0 level comoners at -500 xp) aboard a slaver ship. Then the ship crashes, they escape their captors and try to get off the island with the little ressources they have.
What's great about this (for new players) is that everyone starts off with no class of their own, and they know nothing of the world around them or even where they are. So they discover everything as they move along the adventure.
They find a rusty longsword in the ship's wreckage, the group decides to give it to the strongest PC (who later becomes the fighter). They also find a strange book with incomprehensible text (a spell book) which they give to the smartest PC so he can decipher it over the course of the adventure (the future Wizard). They must sneak around a goblin-orc infested mansion (they send the most dextrous of the team - the future rogue).
So basically, they roleplay the situations as if they were really there and slowly develope their own respective classes. By the end of the adventure (when they go over the zero experience mark), they become first level fighters, wizards and rogues, as determined by their actions on the island.
In this adventure, they also develope their alignment, depending on their actions throughout the adventure. The DM keeps tabs on every action until they mature naturally into their respective classes.
Oh, and throughout the adventure, you make them discover clues as to where they are (an island map, or a diary with the names of nearby continents), so the players learn along with their characters.
I believe, with a little tweaking by your part, you could come up with a similar scenario that doesn't have to be island-oriented. You could have the group wake up in some sort of wizards lab or even an underdark prison with all of their minds wiped clean by a mind flayer (or something).
Giving new players tons of information is a mistake and will only get them to feel encumbered in rules and paperwork. Start small, the players know nothing: their characters know nothing. Less work for you, and you can even discover this new world WITH them as they explore it.
Have fun!
Ultradan
It can be a difficult and uphill struggle at times, but if you stick with it, the slowly-incorporated roleplaying tips above should help. Then you will feel great about having done that.
However, sometimes that just doesn't work. If that should become the case, then you can try an alternate mindset. If you have time (which I realize most of us don't), you can run a game for two groups. You can run a hack 'n slash game for your current group, and then also run one for a roleplaying group, consisting of people you know or recruited with the intention of doing a more mature, serious game with some depth. If you can manage this, it gives the added benefit of allowing your hack 'n slash group to serve as a playtesting ground for your roleplaying group's encounters, a sort of labratory where you can mess around with variables in the game without messing up the story, since there isn't much of one. Just a thought.
Thanks for all the advice, Ill try implementing these although its also diffcult to get them to do what they want, thats another big issue for me; it makes my life easy if they do what i want, but i hate it when they say "lets go here cause thats what he [me, not an npc] wants"
and its not as easy as having two groups, im understaffed on the one I dm and other than the group Im a character in ive never found others interested
I would also do roleplaying yourself. If you act out the wheezy old shopkeeper, they're more likely to be inclined to act out their characters as well. Putting them in a situation where violence is not an option is a good one, I've found.
Roleplaying Tips is an excellent website with LOTS of good ideas - highly recommended!
With this basic information I now lay down my Dilemma: The players for whom I dm are not into it as much as I am, its very much a hack n' slash campaign with the only npc they remember being a downright scoundrel who acts as the tieves guild's go-between. I am wondering how I can get them involved in the role-playing aspects as well rather than "lets go kill things and take the stuff".
If the players want a hack and slash game, then give it to them. If they want something else, maybe you should discuss it with the group instead of forcing them to play a game that only you want to play...
As ever,
ACE
theacemu,
I dont think they know any other way to play, this is their first rpg ever and they tend towrds 1st-person shooters in video games. And im NOT forcing them into anything its not in my nature and its d*mn unrealistic to say "you have to talk to him!"
And i do try to act in character yet they only remember the truly outrageous ones
ex:
they remember Kasien, a thieves guild go-between who provides information for money, sells blackmarket goods, and speaks in a rasping whisper due to an improperly sliced throught.
and they dont even remember his name unles i supply it
always remember... "silence is precious, make sure noone buys yours"
theacemu,
I dont think they know any other way to play, this is their first rpg ever and they tend towrds 1st-person shooters in video games. And im NOT forcing them into anything its not in my nature and its d*mn unrealistic to say "you have to talk to him!"
Heh, what? All i'm trying to get across is that perhaps they want to play a first person shooter game on a board. D&D is a great way to deliver those goods, so, if the group wants to bang around some bad guys on a grid with minis, then there's no need to worry about role playing anything.
Copy and paste this into your browser:http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060901a
One of my very good friends pointed this out to me today and I agree with him that it is the most rediculous ideas ever to begin a Role Playing session. This is mineature gaming, not Role Playing. I've stated this many additional times on other threads and i'll say it again: The game mechanics for D&D do not lend to a Role Playing game...they drive mineatures tactical gaming.
If, however, you (as a group) want to delve into Role Playing, then perhaps another game is better suited for such interests. You can find many other games that have built in mechanics to actually drive Role Playing...not Dice Rolling.
As ever,
ACE
As ever,
ACE
There are lots of good ways to deal with this as mentioned above.
a) Go with what makes the players happy. Give up the idea that there's a platonic ideal of "good roleplaying" and do what makes everyone happy. If that's hack-n-slash, and you enjoy that, then go with it and be happy.
b) Teach your newbies about roleplaying. As mentioned above, do it yourself and they'll learn by example. Share articles like How to Get Under Your Character's Skin When Roleplaying and Creating a Skeletal Character for a Roleplaying Game. If you own the PHB2, there are chapters specifically written to help people make characters with personality. It's probably worth the investment for you, for those specific character templates.
c) Draw them in. Have them name "3 things you wouldn't guess" about their characters, then work those answers in to your adventures. Make sure you do it in a positive way-- if someone says, "I still write my Mom letters and send them whenever I get to town," don't turn around and kill Mom. That'll teach them not to trust you with stuff they care about.
d) Background elements. Ask the players about their PC's home, family, etc. Let them roleplay out a meeting with their first kiss, or have some ignoramous insult their race-- something that'll make them feel good in correcting the idiot.
e) Melodrama's great. Don't go for subtle-- over the top is great. As mentioned above, have them give war cries, have their opponents swear to feast on their livers. Over the top is good-- you can always tone down and get more intricate relations later.
ok; this might help; read your post on "lets go this way because the gm wants us to" and have some suggestions to overcome this problem.
first; are you getting together for a dungeon crawl single module type thing or a campaign; for the first, well, you really need to get to the dungeon and most premade ones come wtih at least a lame hook or better, but yes, you kinda need to follow it;
for a campaign; I figure out how far the pc might journey during the gaming session; this is based on level and gear; at first level it is really easy to do; I look at my map and determine all the of the things they might see and get my supposed random encounters ready; meaning I premake a wandering monster chart if applicable complete with the encounter mobs and their treasure; never hold up a game figuring this out on the spot; players get ansy and it is kind of rude; be prepared; make up a list of about 10 and just go down the list; some should be mobs; some just interesting things; some good; some bad.
consider the adventure hooks that were delivered to the pc via npcs or news postings or whatnot; I usually run several adventure hooks at one time and the pcs can choose any of them or go elsewhere; as I have my 20 mile radius all ready scripted, it doesnt matter where they go; hence they feel the freedom to act as they should and I dont have to railroad them to find the one dungeon that is ready to go. If the pcs get ahead of you, which is rare; then you might need a few encounters; some guy on the road with a broken down wagon; only to find out his wife is about to deliver and maybe the party has seen some orc tracks back a couple miles; this sort of thing; slows a party down and gives you a good time to check alignments; I suggest you graph alignments; I put this in a post a few months ago; but can give you a rundown if needed and why you do it.
sketch out your 40 mile radius; towns; old battlefeilds; lsot and forgotten monuments that might be sticking up; significant monsters or such in the area.
not knowing how many hours you play in a session or how many players you have or how cohesive your players are makes it kind of hard to judge how much you need to have ready from a distance; i know my group; the dawdle and chat a lot; some spend an inordinate time talking to npcs; all fine, but your group might be; lets get out of town quick and find farmer joe and what happened to his cows; track down the goblins; kill them and have hours to spare; this would take my group all night and would expect farmer joe to feed them dinner to boot. AFter a few sessions, you should have a pretty good idea of how much your players are capable of accomplishing. In the old game; they published a Book of Lairs; and some city books and a port book that had pick up and use stuff for gms; check into this if you can; nice to have a lair about for that manticore that is getting the goblins to kill farmer joes cows. A typical ploy that my players like to have is a local expert looking for something; an herb; or somesuch thing; as they move along they seek it by asking questions and such; nice little side thread; and they might get a few potions or some such.
hope some of this helps.
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Director of Game Development
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Great advice on here and I'm sure plenty more to come. This site is by far the best D&D related site as far as getting good, playtested game wisdom. Sop all this gravy up with a biscuit.
I'm very happy that first-person shooter fiends have the patience for pencils, paper and polyhedrons they are not thinking of texturing. One of the things I do with new characters prior to starting an adventure is interview them. Before the start of a campaign I sit down with each player and interview their character.
I ask questions like: Where are you from? What are your parents/siblings doiong right now? How is it your family earned a living? What skills did you take away from growing up as a *blank*? Why did you leave that life to start this one? How do you see your new adventuring career? What do you hope to gain from it? What skills do you believe you have that cut it in a career of adventuring? Kinda generic, but I try to hit them with 10-20 of these questions and write it down on the first few pages of my "Current Campaign Notebook", then it is always there to reference.
Take these answers they give you and weave these things into your storyline. Be subtle. I had way too many DMs try to use my characters' families against them, when I thought I was being realistic instead of going the "I'm an orphan" route. Also, knowing their motivations and pasts as well if not better than you know your NPCs you will be more able to navigate when they players "go left".
Know them and know their world, so when it comes time for you to make a DM decision it will be based in some reality as to what is available and possible. Using these kinds of things will lead your players where they need to go without feeling like you are railroading them into a situation.
I used to quiz my players about their characters at the beginning of every session. They'd each get a different question, so they couldn't think about their answer when another player was answering the question. General questions like:
* Did you have a role model growing up?
* Why'd you choose [x] to go to? (X being a city.)
* What's your favorite color?
* What does your character do as a morning routine?
* Did you have a pet growing up?
Things all of us know about ourselves, but it's good to put those questions to your players.