Daemon Harbingers


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


I am currently running a Pathfinder campaign that is focused on a scheme of a Harbinger, Aesdurath, in Varisia. Unfortunately, there is very little information about the Harbinger. Does anyone, for example Todd, know more about them or did you only give little information about them on purpose? For example, I would like to stay close to the setting inherent rules and thus, I am wondering if Aesdurath is a free Harbinger or if he is directed by one of the Horsemen. If the latter is the case, which one would do so. Furthermore, how strong should an average Harbingers be? Unless I missed something, there is little known about the power structure of the Great Beyond, in part, of course, due to the missing mythic rules.


Baroth wrote:
I am currently running a Pathfinder campaign that is focused on a scheme of a Harbinger, Aesdurath, in Varisia. Unfortunately, there is very little information about the Harbinger. Does anyone, for example Todd, know more about them or did you only give little information about them on purpose? For example, I would like to stay close to the setting inherent rules and thus, I am wondering if Aesdurath is a free Harbinger or if he is directed by one of the Horsemen. If the latter is the case, which one would do so. Furthermore, how strong should an average Harbingers be? Unless I missed something, there is little known about the power structure of the Great Beyond, in part, of course, due to the missing mythic rules.

Very little is known about this harbinger, as his only mention is inside the back cover of "Horsemen of the Apo." As for power level, you're correct about the "mythic" rules; horsemen, like demon lords and archdevils (or even nascent demon lords and dukes of hell), have power levels not adequately expressed under the current rules, so they are not generally statted up. There are some exceptions (I'm looking at you, Treerazer), but I'm guessing if/when mythic rules are implemented, these will be retconned as well.


I can't seem to find anything in the Horsemen of the Apocalypse book on Aesdurath or in the Bestiaries. Where did you find the name?

At any rate, this seems like an opportunity for you to come up with your own mythos. You can make Aesdurath into anything you want (even if it does contradict the Golarion canon). What's the scheme you have in mind?


Thanks for your answers so far.

Concerning the power level, I thought as much. I just do not want to contradict the inherent power structure of the Great Beyond. Because we will use the mythic rules once they are released, it would be rather silly if I stat up a Harbinger as something around CR 23/24 and we find out that one of the highest mythic levels would be more fitting. Thus, I am contemplating if I should use the Harbinger directly or just one of his minions. The minions would not be a problem because it could be a lich, as they are in his area of concern, or simply a high level daemon with class levels.

Concerning the Harbinger, I know that I can create my own background, I was just wondering if there is more to these Harbingers than just a line at the back of BotD III.

Concerning my plot, I actually knew the plot before I knew who plotted it and I just knew that I wanted to use Daemons because I so like their motivations. Well, I did like the ones of the Yugoloths, but came around to like the ones of the Daemons as well. I searched for a liege in the background that I could go back to if mythic rules ever came up and naturally first checked the Horsemen and their Harbinger. As the plot involves a magical catastrophe, Aesdurath (found on the back cover of BotD III) fits perfectly. The plot basically involves the manipulation of 4 rather powerful elementalists to an all-out confrontation where he plans to redirect the magical energies to result in a magical catastrophe of immense proportions. The character at first just stumbled into it, but are linked through various points in their lives to one of the major players in the plot. They first encountered two of the elementalists in a battle on a small island which resulted in them being shipwrecked in Varisia. Currently, they are not sure what to do as they have killed minions of a black dragon in a nearby swamp and thus, have accidentally angered him, but do not really want to deal with him. The dragon naturally deals with the Daemon, hoping to have a bigger realm for himself after the catastrophe.


OmegaZ wrote:
I can't seem to find anything in the Horsemen of the Apocalypse book on Aesdurath or in the Bestiaries. Where did you find the name?

See the first sentence of my previous post.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

A large number of the harbingers were invented in house during the book's development and editing, actually—and as such, for now, those who aren't mentioned more in the text are simply entries on the table. We may eventually detail some or all of those harbingers out further in the future... but for now, they're mostly blank slates for GMs to develop however they wish.


James Jacobs wrote:
A large number of the harbingers were invented in house during the book's development and editing, actually—and as such, for now, those who aren't mentioned more in the text are simply entries on the table. We may eventually detail some or all of those harbingers out further in the future... but for now, they're mostly blank slates for GMs to develop however they wish.

Thanks for your answer. I will get to work then.

Are we correct to assume that the CRs of the Harbingers are at the upper end of the mythic scale? Just to get an idea of the power structure of the great beyond.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Baroth wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
A large number of the harbingers were invented in house during the book's development and editing, actually—and as such, for now, those who aren't mentioned more in the text are simply entries on the table. We may eventually detail some or all of those harbingers out further in the future... but for now, they're mostly blank slates for GMs to develop however they wish.

Thanks for your answer. I will get to work then.

Are we correct to assume that the CRs of the Harbingers are at the upper end of the mythic scale? Just to get an idea of the power structure of the great beyond.

The CR for all three categories—infernal duke (for devils), nascent demon lords (for demons), and harbingers (for daemons) should run from 21 to 25. If you have the Inner Sea World Guide, Treerazer is statted up in there and you can use his stats as a guide for what the upper limit of power a fiend of this level could represent.

It's the archdevils, demon lords, and horsemen themselves who are at the upper end of whatever a Mythic Level scale would represent.

Infernal dukes, nascent demon lords, and harbingers were invented SPECIFICALLY so that a campaign that ends with a party of 20th level PCs could have powerful unique fiends to fight.


James Jacobs wrote:

The CR for all three categories—infernal duke (for devils), nascent demon lords (for demons), and harbingers (for daemons) should run from 21 to 25. If you have the Inner Sea World Guide, Treerazer is statted up in there and you can use his stats as a guide for what the upper limit of power a fiend of this level could represent.

It's the archdevils, demon lords, and horsemen themselves who are at the upper end of whatever a Mythic Level scale would represent.

Infernal dukes, nascent demon lords, and harbingers were invented SPECIFICALLY so that a campaign that ends with a party of 20th level PCs could have powerful unique fiends to fight.

Thanks for this answer. Naturally, I do have the Inner Sea World Guide and will check him out in greater detail. Not that I did not already do this as I am keen on anything from the Outer Planes. My players will certainly not be happy about this.

Just to satisfy my curiosity: Was it indicated somewhere in the books that these categories were designed for being in this CR range?

Contributor

Aesdurath was one of several that got cut for space. I could tell you what details I had in mind for him beyond the listing in the back of the book, but largely I've held off on releasing that sort of detail precisely because A) it might appear in a later book and B) if it's detailed by someone else who has other ideas to explore versus the original unpublished ones, I'd prefer not to have conflicting information out there. What's in print is what's canon after all, not whatever else might be drifting around on my desktop. :)

Of course, James et al are always free to let me blab about the basics of Aesdurath if they wanted. ;)


Todd Stewart wrote:

Aesdurath was one of several that got cut for space. I could tell you what details I had in mind for him beyond the listing in the back of the book, but largely I've held off on releasing that sort of detail precisely because A) it might appear in a later book and B) if it's detailed by someone else who has other ideas to explore versus the original unpublished ones, I'd prefer not to have conflicting information out there. What's in print is what's canon after all, not whatever else might be drifting around on my desktop. :)

Of course, James et al are always free to let me blab about the basics of Aesdurath if they wanted. ;)

Thanks for your answer. Now, I am curious. Thus, I have to ask: James, is Todd allowed to give me the details on Aesdurath? Pretty please, with sugar on top.

Another question for the Daemon specialist(s): Do the Daemons actually have high-level schemers like the Ultroloths? It seems to me that basically most Daemons are rather stupid compared to other denizens of the Outer Planes, except for the Venedaemon.

While you guys are here, let me thank you for the great work you deliver. I absolutely love the BotDs and the Great Beyond (and most of the other books as well). The only nitpick I have is that they are too small.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Baroth wrote:
Todd Stewart wrote:

Aesdurath was one of several that got cut for space. I could tell you what details I had in mind for him beyond the listing in the back of the book, but largely I've held off on releasing that sort of detail precisely because A) it might appear in a later book and B) if it's detailed by someone else who has other ideas to explore versus the original unpublished ones, I'd prefer not to have conflicting information out there. What's in print is what's canon after all, not whatever else might be drifting around on my desktop. :)

Of course, James et al are always free to let me blab about the basics of Aesdurath if they wanted. ;)

Thanks for your answer. Now, I am curious. Thus, I have to ask: James, is Todd allowed to give me the details on Aesdurath? Pretty please, with sugar on top.

Another question for the Daemon specialist(s): Do the Daemons actually have high-level schemers like the Ultroloths? It seems to me that basically most Daemons are rather stupid compared to other denizens of the Outer Planes, except for the Venedaemon.

While you guys are here, let me thank you for the great work you deliver. I absolutely love the BotDs and the Great Beyond (and most of the other books as well). The only nitpick I have is that they are too small.

If Todd wants to, he certainly can. He knows, though, and you should as well that until it sees print... everything is subject to change.

Daemons in Golarion are not Yugoloths—we're specifically NOT trying to make duplicates of all the yugoloths... except in cases where those yugoloths (who were, in fact, originally daemons themselves before 2nd edition got all afraid of using words like "daemon" in print) are open content. At this point, though, the daemons we've done are pretty limited to 3 books: Bestairy 2, Bestiary 3, and Book of the Damned 3. We'll do more eventually, but for now, that's it.

And thanks! Complaints that the books are too short/small are always welcome... even though the prospect of making them larger without shrinking another book by a like amount kinda makes me cringe... ;-P


Thanks for your answer. Thus, I am awaiting the ramblings of Todd. I should be working for University anyway. If he talks (and believe me he will talk), I will use his design as an inspiration for my creation unless he nails the design perfectly.

I know that the Daemons are not Yugoloths as I know most things from the older editions on Daemons and Yugoloths, but they fit the same NE Outsider slot. I am just drawn to the evil for the sake of evil type of enemies which is, I admit, not as true for Daemons as for Yugoloths as the Daemons have a much clearer goal. However, said goal is on a different level that the ones of Demons and Devils. I somehow feel that after a while one 'gets' Demons and Devils as one is able understand them. Daemons are completely different in that respect. One has a really hard time to understand them the more one knows about them. Still, I was kind of surprised that there is not at least one high level Daemon that is capable to be a match for a Balor or a Pit Fiend in terms of intelligence.

You are welcome. I praise good quality work where I see it. I know the problems that come with larger publications as the costs for Paizo and for their customers would go up and especially the latter could prove to be a deal breaker. Still, I crave for more, perhaps make the Setting books each the size of the Inner Sea World Guide? I would really like that.

I have to ask: Why are you still awake? Because here in Berne, it is 9 o'clock in the morning and I doubt you live by our time zone. :-)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Baroth wrote:
I have to ask: Why are you still awake? Because here in Berne, it is 9 o'clock in the morning and I doubt you live by our time zone. :-)

It was 11:00 pm when I made that post... it's about 12:40 am right now.

As for why I'm awake... I normally don't go to sleep till 1 or 2 AM.


James Jacobs wrote:
Baroth wrote:
I have to ask: Why are you still awake? Because here in Berne, it is 9 o'clock in the morning and I doubt you live by our time zone. :-)

It was 11:00 pm when I made that post... it's about 12:40 am right now.

As for why I'm awake... I normally don't go to sleep till 1 or 2 AM.

I always forget that you guys are PST and not EST.

Contributor

Baroth wrote:
Thanks for your answer. Thus, I am awaiting the ramblings of Todd. I should be working for University anyway. If he talks (and believe me he will talk), I will use his design as an inspiration for my creation unless he nails the design perfectly.

When I get home, sure. It's a little under a paragraph long, and just to repeat James and myself again, it's not canon unless it's in print, and I don't want to make a habit of this since stuff has a tendency to be recycled/expanded/altered later on if it's not used in an earlier project. :)

Quote:
Still, I was kind of surprised that there is not at least one high level Daemon that is capable to be a match for a Balor or a Pit Fiend in terms of intelligence.

Does there need to be one for reasons other than the symmetry assumptions of the Balor/Pit Fiend/Ultroloth dynamic from 1e/2e/3e? The daemons don't operate (at all) by the same social hierarchy as the 2e/3e yugoloths did, and their outlook is rather distinctly different, plus they don't have any similar Blood War'esque mercenary roll as a race that the 'loths did. There doesn't IMO really need to be that sort of symmetry when the daemons have a much more elaborate caste of Harbingers as a caste below the Four, versus nothing really comparable among the 1e/2e/3e yugoloths who had the ultroloths and really only a sparse handful of unique members.

You're certainly able to bump the intelligence of one of the daemon types though if you think they need it.

Quote:
I have to ask: Why are you still awake? Because here in Berne, it is 9 o'clock in the morning and I doubt you live by our time zone. :-)

Because I work at night, thus I'm awake and probably will be till 8am (or longer if I play Diablo III when I get home...)


Todd Stewart wrote:

When I get home, sure. It's a little under a paragraph long, and just to repeat James and myself again, it's not canon unless it's in print, and I don't want to make a habit of this since stuff has a tendency to be recycled/expanded/altered later on if it's not used in an earlier project. :)

Does there need to be one for reasons other than the symmetry assumptions of the Balor/Pit Fiend/Ultroloth dynamic from 1e/2e/3e? The daemons don't operate (at all) by the same social hierarchy as the 2e/3e yugoloths did, and their outlook is rather distinctly different, plus they don't have any similar Blood War'esque mercenary roll as a race that the 'loths did. There doesn't IMO really need to be that sort of symmetry when the daemons have a much more elaborate caste of Harbingers as a caste below the Four, versus nothing really comparable among the 1e/2e/3e yugoloths who had the ultroloths and really only a sparse handful of unique members

Thanks for your answer. I really appreciate you two answering these questions. I really just like well-written lore.

Concerning your material, I will use it as an inspiration for my creation unless you happen to do with Aesdurath what I wanted to do with him.

Concerning the intelligence of Daemons, it would be only natural to have a caste of very intelligent beings on top of or near the top of the 'hierarchy'. As it could be argued that at least a certain intelligence is needed to be on top of a 'hierarchy' like the ones of the Daemons. Because even a balor, arguably the toughest and strongest demon, is quite intelligent and their 'society' is structured around pure power. However, as I understand you, the Harbingers are exactly this caste. They are what the Pit Fiend, the Balor, the Solar, etc. are for their respective 'society'. It is a change I do like.
However, speaking in game rules, it seems that to use this caste of the Daemons, one needs to stat it up all by oneself, while using the caste for other outsiders gives you a pretty solid monster to start off with. It is a disadvantage, but I am really liking the prospect of creating my own Harbinger. Is there any advice you can give concerning creating such a beast? Because creating monsters is the only thing I really rarely do, let alone CR 23/24 guys. I guess this question would be rather for James "Mr. Demonlord" Jacobs.

Apparently, RPG developers are creatures of the night. I sometimes wish I could work until late into the night. But my part-time job that finances my philosophy studies, forces me get up at 5.30 AM on at least two days a week.

Contributor

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As requested:

Aesdurath the Puppet King
Commander: Charon
Realm: The 9 Towers
Unholy Symbol: A silhouette of two overlapping skulls
Areas of concern: Death by Magical Backlash
Domains: Evil, Undeath, Magic
Favored Weapon: Dagger

Aesdurath was born from the bizarre conjunction of a lich whose soul fused with its erodaemon consort upon his corporeal destruction. Now appearing as a gaunt, genderless erodaemon spontaneously manifesting bleeding bite marks upon its body, its conjoined souls feed upon one another. Aesdurath isn’t a true daemon, at least as far as most of the daemonic nobility is concerned. Yet Charon accepts Aesdurath’s loyalty and the Four take no official stance, leaving many to suspect they use him as a goading tool to throw against their other vassals.


Todd Stewart wrote:

As requested:

Aesdurath the Puppet King
Commander: Charon
Realm: The 9 Towers
Unholy Symbol: A silhouette of two overlapping skulls
Areas of concern: Death by Magical Backlash
Domains: Evil, Undeath, Magic
Favored Weapon: Dagger

Aesdurath was born from the bizarre conjunction of a lich whose soul fused with its erodaemon consort upon his corporeal destruction. Now appearing as a gaunt, genderless erodaemon spontaneously manifesting bleeding bite marks upon its body, its conjoined souls feed upon one another. Aesdurath isn’t a true daemon, at least as far as most of the daemonic nobility is concerned. Yet Charon accepts Aesdurath’s loyalty and the Four take no official stance, leaving many to suspect they use him as a goading tool to throw against their other vassals.

Thanks for this. I really like the fusing of lich/erodaemon part. After reading it, it seems so obvious that one could do this with a Harbinger of magical catastrophes.

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