Can you suggest a non-linear adventure path for us?

[Anlerran]

Hi all - I have a request.

My group just couldn't get on with 4E, so we suggested going back to 3.5 where we already have most of the books. Someone suggested Pathfinder, and we all agree it looks great so far. I'll be GMing, and I'm very impressed with the rulebooks I've read so far.

Having the adventure modules is a big plus for us. So far the ones I've got look gorgeous (the players love their visuals) but I'm concerned so far that they seem a bit linear, even railroady.

I was very disappointed with the Skull & Shackles one - my players simply won't accept being slaves and losing control for the first few levels of their lives. And with the general 'evil' feel of it all. I'm hoping that I can just skip the first one and start them in #2 as free captains with a bucaneering bent.

I've also taken a look at Jade Regent, which looks beautiful, but also strikes me as a bit linear (only had a brief look so I may be wrong). Loved the 'Dragon Age 2' style romances and friendship/rivalry rules for the NPCs though!

Can someone suggest an AP that's not too combat orientated, and isn't too railroady? Or where the PCs choices have an impact on the story as a whole?

I recall having this problem in 2nd edition - we all loved the Planescape/Dark Sun/Ravenloft campaign worlds but all the adventures simply led the players around by the nose, and they hate that.

Anyway, any suggestions would be gratefully recieved, thanks.

[wargamer]

Kingmaker and Council of Thieves are both fairly non-linear after the first session. CoT has a lot of long dungeon crawls though so that may trun you off to it. If your players really want an open world campaign you're probably better off writing your own game than trying to run a published adventure. Even the most sandboxy module will feel restrictive to a some kinds of player.

[Rhys Grey]

Kingmaker is very non-linear, and PC choices most definitely have an impact on the game. I'm GMing this AP presently; the PCs are having a blast being leaders in their duchy.

[Anlerran]

Thank you. I've looked at similar threads to mine and Kingmaker seems to score highly.

I don't really want an open sandbox necessarily - just something beyond a linear hack-and-slash where everything is pre-ordained. Granted, D&D has never been the go-to game for that kind of thing, but our familiarity with 3rd edition means we desrve to give Pathfinder a try.

[Deadmanwalking]

Anlerran wrote:

Thank you. I've looked at similar threads to mine and Kingmaker seems to score highly.

I don't really want an open sandbox necessarily - just something beyond a linear hack-and-slash where everything is pre-ordained. Granted, D&D has never been the go-to game for that kind of thing, but our familiarity with 3rd edition means we desrve to give Pathfinder a try.

What do you mean by 'everything is pre-ordained'? In most APs, you actually get several choices to make that radically effect who, when, and what, you might have to fight, and even more tactical choices in the vein of 'How do I take out this numerically superior force?'

They're by no means combat light, but they're pretty well realized worlds with people and things that you interact with and can approach logically. Most involve at least a few NPCs who can be great friends of yours or terrible enemies, depending on what you do.

Now, the main villain, and thus the final fight, is pretty much set from the start, and some foes can't be reasoned with along the way, but there are quite a few choices to be made in just about every AP.

[GeraintElberion]

Anlerran wrote:

Thank you. I've looked at similar threads to mine and Kingmaker seems to score highly.

I don't really want an open sandbox necessarily - just something beyond a linear hack-and-slash where everything is pre-ordained. Granted, D&D has never been the go-to game for that kind of thing, but our familiarity with 3rd edition means we deserve to give Pathfinder a try.

I would respectfully suggest that the only person who knows what is or is not pre-ordained is the GM and it is his job to make things appear incidental and consequential.

Sometimes my players feel like they have created events from APs, or that pre-ordained sequences are curveballs I have thrown in to mess with them, that's a matter of presentation. Your players will always know they are playing an Adventure Path when they see you with the books but from there the GM is in control.

[HangarFlying]

It's too bad they're so quick to turn down Skulls and Shackles. Having read the first two modules, this AP, so far, is VERY non-linear.

[Anlerran]

Yes, good advise as regards the GM changing what is pre-ordained. But working from a non-linear beginning is always nice.

I intend to do 'Skull and Shackles' but skip the first one entirely, just start them in the second one as promising new bucaneers.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Kingmaker is a non-linear sandbox. It has some flaws, but to date it's one of the two or three most popular APs.

Jade Regent is "your adventuring group takes a trip to the other side of the world, on foot". It will necessarily be somewhat linear. The third book (Hungry Storm) is a bit sandboxy; you have to cross the polar ice cap, but you can go different routes, encounters can happen in different orders, etc. But overall, yes, a bit of a railroad.

If you're OK with a little work upgrading from 3.5 (not much), Curse of the Crimson Throne gives you a lot to work with. It includes a mix of urban adventure and dungeon crawls, lots of interesting NPCs, and a pretty detailed urban setting where the PCs actions can definitely make a big difference. My players loved it, FWTW.

Doug M.

[HangarFlying]

Actually, you could still have them do the first module, but instead of being forced, they could volunteer and then find out the bad guys are actually big giant d-bags and pick it up that way.

[Are]

As long as you let your group know beforehand that they'll be prisoners with no gear, they might roll with it. And if not, then just start at book 2 the way you intend.

[Anlerran]

No, they definitely won't want anything to do with PF if their first adventure sees them captured and stripped of any control. I'll pick up the later ones and see if I can just run it without the first one.

I bought Kingmaker and Jade Regent as advised and they look great. JR is a road trip and as Douglas said, it's necessarily linear... but there seems a lot of role-playing and NPCs along the way so the linearity won't matter.

When did the APs change over to the PF rules?

I've heard great things about Runelords, but some say it starts great then descends into grindy dungeon-bashing...

[Steve Geddes]

Council of thieves was the first PF AP. the 3.5 ones are rise of the rune lords (soon to be updated), curse of the crimson throne, second darkness and legacy of fire. The rest are all written for pathfinder (although the 3.5 ones are eminently usable, in my view - curse of the crimson throne would be a good fit for your group, I'd guess ( possibly excepting the fifth instalment).

[Coridan]

Slumbering Tsar and Kingmaker are the only two I would count as non linear. CotCT and Serpents Skull have certain modules that are non linear but not the AP as a whole.

It sounds like what you want is something player driven, that requires sandbox and I thing Tsar is the best you can find regarding published adventures.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Anlerran, Kingmaker and Jade Regent are both great APs. You can have a lot of fun with either of them. If you've read through both, you can best decide what your players want.

Runelords is (IMO) a B-list AP that includes several A-list modules. The overarching plot is weakish and doesn't really kick in until part 4, but the first three modules are all so good that nobody cares. Yes, it does get a bit grindy in the back half -- the last three modules are all pretty combat heavy. But it's very flavorful grinding, if that makes sense. It was the first AP for Pathfinder, so Paizo kind of threw everything into the salad bowl. The back half may be clunky and grindy in spots, but the fun train never stops rolling. You could totally play Runelords too.

Doug M.

[Ahorsewithnoname]

If you want something non linear, Kingmaker is my recommendation. The only other AP I have experience with is CC and that is rather linear so I would stay away from that.

[Anlerran]

Really good advice, thanks. Got Kingmaker and Jade Regent and both look more than suitible for our needs. One player even likes the idea as playing as the Regent which should really tie them into the plot.

I'm sure I can get away with linear ones later on, but I'd like to blow them away with the first one if possible. I'm sure Skull and Shackles will interest them if I just start them off as freebooting bucaneers rather than slaves.

I hear great things about Runelords, but I guess I'll have to wait until the reprint for that one.

Thanks to Douglas and Steve and everyone else.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Here's one last thought. There's a module called "Souls for Smugglers Shiv". It's the first module of the Serpents Skull AP -- but its nature is such that it can easily be snapped off of that AP, and used as the first module of another AP (i.e., Skull & Shackles) instead.

Why? Well, because

Spoiler:

it's a module that starts with the 1st level PCs being shipwrecked on an island, waking up half naked on the beach. They've lost most of their stuff and have to improvise weapons and equipment. Over the course of the module, they explore the island, deal with its inhabitants (wild animals, undead, a tribe of cannibals), discover and confront their shipwrecker, and finally find a way off.

It's a great module. Unfortunately, the rest of that AP isn't as good -- it gets super grindy on the backstretch, but without the charm that kept Rise of the Runelords interesting. But that first module? One of the best.

So if you're not happy with Skull & Shackles #1, but you don't want to start the PCs off at 4th level, consider running "Souls for Smugglers Shiv". It would need some amendment to fit the new AP, of course. You'd have to replace the "shipwrecked by an evil lizard-priest" plotline with something more piratical. But that shouldn't be too hard; you make the PCs the survivors of a pirate attack at the beginning, for instance, then give them a chance to discover and take over a pirate ship at the end. Then swing into Skulls and Shackles #2. It starts the PCs off with nothing, but instead of forcing them to be slaves for half a module, it allows them to improvise and control their own fate. And it's not linear at all -- the island is basically one big sandbox.

Just a thought.

cheers,

Doug M.

[Anlerran]

That's a brilliant idea, Doug! Thank you! Really appreciate the help!