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If I store Javelins in an EQ can I draw them like arrows?
If I store a Staff in an EQ can I draw it as a free action?
There's nothing in the EQ text that changes the action type to retrieve an item or that says you draw non-ammunition items as though they were ammunition.
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And I'm still waiting for anyone to tell me what they do allow to be stored in the arrow compartment besides actual arrows, if they don't allow wands.
Crossbow Bolts.
I'd allow a wand to go in, but since the rule with the quiver is that the item doesn't come out any faster than normal its still a move action to draw.
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And I'm still waiting for anyone to tell me what they do allow to be stored in the arrow compartment besides actual arrows, if they don't allow wands.Crossbow Bolts.
I'd allow a wand to go in, but since the rule with the quiver is that the item doesn't come out any faster than normal its still a move action to draw.
My stance as well. I'd allow bolts or wands, but whatever you put in, you still pull it out according to the existing rules for that type of item.
Some have said they don't allow wands or bolts, and I'm waiting to see what they do allow - because they have to allow something.
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I'd allow a wand to go in, but since the rule with the quiver is that the item doesn't come out any faster than normal its still a move action to draw.
My stance as well. I'd allow bolts or wands, but whatever you put in, you still pull it out according to the existing rules for that type of item.
I'm in full agreement with Jiggy and Nosig - what happened ?
If you felt differently, then maybe because I still can't see the sense of an EQ for wand storage instead of a belt or a Handy Haversack.
The belt is cheaper, the haversack more versatile - apart of maybe special circumstances. And the most straightforward user of wand and EQ - and Elven wizard or sorcerer - would be unlikely to mix arrows and wands.
As I say - I just can't see a reasonable use case - unless a player tries to get a free action out of it which would suddenly make the EQ a lot more appealing.
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Maybe they just think it's cooler? Or maybe a previous GM told them that wands would poke holes in their Haversacks and destroy all the contents. *shudder*
But does the reason for wanting it (assuming it's something other than trying to bypass drawing times) really make a difference?
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It's pretty easy to miss, isn't it? The next thing you'll run into is "so that means you can Quick Draw a wand, right?", and then you have to chase down the Quick Draw text which disallows it. Honestly, I wish they'd either remove the limitation on Quick Draw or remove the lenience on weapon-ness, so at least it'd be consistent. :PGrue
Yes - found it as well. Just was interupted here while editing my original text. Always here also to learn.
The funny thing is that if you get one of those staves that also count as a +blah Quarterstaff, you can Quickdraw it. Which makes even less sense. I agree that they should remove the lenience on weapon-ness.
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Thod,
Potential example from one of my actual PCs:
He has a Handy Haversack, which is almost always running on full, nearly 100 pounds of equipment in it, between travel gear (bedroll, tent, etc.; consumables of use like tanglefoot bags and alchemist's fire; stored consumables like arrows above and beyond the amount in his quivers (in the original quivers to protect the Handy Haversack), etc.)
As an archer, he also has two Efficient Quivers, which he uses for whatever he can.
As a Fighter/Cleric/Ranger, he also has several wands he has picked up during the course of his career. Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Protection from Evil, Wand of Endure Elements, Wand of Gravity Bow, off the top of my head.
I tend to play him as having the wands hanging from his belt, but I could easily see them as being stored away, somewhere, just to unclutter his image.
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Funny but all this leads me to one thing: If the quickdraw feat was changed to function with potions, alchemical items, scrolls, wands, rods we wouldnt even have these issues.
I can see players argue the lingo because its not completely explicit you will have players aming the system. the old RAW vs. RAI issue.
'Cest la Vie'
the advantage to playing a tabletop rpg over a crpg or mmo is you have a DM. Even the most railroady campaign is a sandbox compared to a computer game.Keep in mind a couple of things:
1) This is the PFS forum, and organized play GMs are expected to run their sanctioned games "by the book" to the best of their ability, even if they don't agree with every little detail.2) Careful with the "Pathfinder's not a video game" argument. Comes with a lot of baggage, as it's often used as an escape hatch for those who fear accountability. Doesn't sound like you, but I thought I'd point it out in case you might like to avoid the phrase in case it causes someone to dismiss you out of hand sooner or later, you know? :)
Was making a point more that players have alot more freedom for creativity even in the tightest 'color between the lines' adventure with a tabletop game with a DM to interpret actions it's a inherent part of the game. More of a reaction to the feeling that a lack of a clear cut rule precludes a ruling vibe.
Given the item's actual description (and even precedent), it is more 'by the book' to be a bit more flexible on what can go into the quiver than to exclude virtually everything but arrows etc.
After reviewing the rules/item in question - I'm making my "judges stance".
I think you can store a wand in an EQ (or in a normal quiver for that matter) and draw it like you would a wand. It's not ammo. Anyone at my table who draws a wand as a free action will need to show me the rule that lets them draw it that way... (say from a spring loaded wrist sheith).
Hay! does that mean I get to say "not at MY table!"?
Drawing a wand from a EQ is never a free action. It is as if the wand is sheathed and ready to go in a belt or whatnot. If the pc has a +1 BAB they may draw it as specifically allowed as part of a move action (move 30 feet and draw a wand...move action....standard action activate the wand or do anything else you can do with a standard action).
They could not swap a wand in and out of a EQ as part of that move action, however they could drop a wand and draw a new one.
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It is as if the wand is sheathed and ready to go in a belt or whatnot. If the pc has a +1 BAB they may draw it as specifically allowed as part of a move action (move 30 feet and draw a wand...move action....standard action activate the wand or do anything else you can do with a standard action).
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Its a little unclear if that would work with a wand, since a wand is not a weapon. I think it makes more sense to be able to draw a wand off your belt than say a 2 handed sword off your back, but the precedent from quickdraw differentiates between the two.
I've been waiting for someone to point to the section in the discription that says:
"...Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, ..."
and say you can only extract something once the quiver is FULL... got 60 wands?
No but the owner could put 46 bolts in or arrows, or arrow sized twigs in if faced with that kind of ruling.
Otherwise I'd say precedent and common sense.
Are there any other storage devices that only release previously stored contents only after they have been filled to capacity? Is there a logical or special effect reason why the efficient quiver extradimensional space would work differently from all previous examples (that I can think of at least;-)?
However the item also says "The first and smallest one can contain up to 60 objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow." Meaning it can contain less than 60 objects and still function. You could be nitpicky but it seems a bit beyond the pale to require a owner to first load up the Quiver with whatever qualifying objects are at hand and then withdraw the junk they don't want in the Quiver (which would not make the EQ cease to function).
Game publishers have a noticeable weakness when it comes to editing (technical or otherwise), and filled in this case does not seem to intend that the item must be filled to capacity in ordered to be used. Most likely the entry was copy and pasted from the SRD wholesale with minimal editing. Lots of imprecise language riddled throughout and likely grandfathered in from much earlier editions that you'll have to use some judgement on (or suffer the tyrannies of the misplaced comma;-).
Here's the entry for the Efficient quiver from the 3.0 d20 SRD
Efficient Quiver
This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about 20 arrows. Examination shows that it has three distinct portions, each with an extradimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible. The first and smallest one can contain up to 60 objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to 18 objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as six objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (including spears, staffs, etc.). Once the owner has filled it, the owner can command the quiver each round to produce any stored items he or she wishes.
Caster Level: 9th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Market Price: 1,800 gp; Weight: -.
The line "Such a quiver is always found empty, but once the owner has filled it, it can be commanded to produce any stored items each round." is in the Quiver of Ehlonna description for 2e AD&D. That line isn't found in the more barebones description in Unearthed Arcana (where the Quiver first appeared in print).
It is as if the wand is sheathed and ready to go in a belt or whatnot. If the pc has a +1 BAB they may draw it as specifically allowed as part of a move action (move 30 feet and draw a wand...move action....standard action activate the wand or do anything else you can do with a standard action).If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Its a little unclear if that would work with a wand, since a wand is not a weapon. I think it makes more sense to be able to draw a wand off your belt than say a 2 handed sword off your back, but the precedent from quickdraw differentiates between the two.
Wands are specifically allowed. Note the bolded text in the excerpt from the pathfinder OGC below...
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
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If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon
Draw a weapon. Not a weapon-like-object. I agree that your ruling is eminently sensible and makes more sense than quick-drawing a claymore. Wands are only specifically mentioned as being drawn as a move action, not under the base attack bonus +1 and higher paragraph.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon
Draw a weapon. Not a weapon-like-object. I agree that your ruling is eminently sensible and makes more sense than quick-drawing a claymore. Wands are only specifically mentioned as being drawn as a move action, not under the base attack bonus +1 and higher paragraph.
This isn't exactly contract law.:-) Let's flip this around. Previous paragraph describes wands as a weapon like object and under the general rule heading of 'Draw or Sheathe a Weapon'. How is a weapon like object not like a weapon for purposes of not being allowed to be drawn as part of a move action if the pc has a +1 BAB? Is there a feature in its nature that makes it not count as a weapon for purposes of drawing it from easy reach in the former paragraph but not the latter?
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This isn't exactly contract law.:-)
Sometimes i wonder... :)
Let's flip this around. Previous paragraph describes wands as a weapon like object and under the general rule heading of 'Draw or Sheathe a Weapon'. How is a weapon like object not like a weapon for purposes of not being allowed to be drawn as part of a move action if the pc has a +1 BAB? Is there a feature in its nature that makes it not count as a weapon for purposes of drawing it from easy reach in the former paragraph but not the latter?
I am reading it the same way. But I can see the other side of it too. One paragraph says weapons and weapon like objects. The +1 bab rule only applies to weapons. Weapon like objects aren't mentioned. The move action paragraph specifies that THIS action applies to weapons, not other actions.
Mostly it comes from quick-draw. You would think that learning to flick your wrist and get a foot long piece of smooth wood into your hand would be easier than learning to get a 20 pound spiked earthbreaker off of your back and ready to swing in the blink of an eye but no, weapons and weapon like objects are split there.
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The line "Such a quiver is always found empty, but once the owner has filled it, it can be commanded to produce any stored items each round." is in the Quiver of Ehlonna description for 2e AD&D. That line isn't found in the more barebones description in Unearthed Arcana (where the Quiver first appeared in print).
Actually on pg102 of The Unearthed Arcana (1985)and the errata in Dragon magazine that was designed to be glued on the pages says: " The possessor of this item merely commands the quiver to produce whatever item he or she wishes each round i.e. "an arrow +1," "an arrow +3," "a javelin," etc. - so long as the item was previously placed in the quiver.
I am reading it the same way. But I can see the other side of it too. One paragraph says weapons and weapon like objects. The +1 bab rule only applies to weapons. Weapon like objects aren't mentioned. The move action paragraph specifies that THIS action applies to weapons, not other actions.
Mostly it comes from quick-draw. You would think that learning to flick your wrist and get a foot long piece of smooth wood into your hand would be easier than learning to get a 20 pound spiked earthbreaker off of your back and ready to swing in the blink of an eye but no, weapons and weapon like objects are split there.
<Looks at feat again>...
Quick Draw (Combat)
You can draw weapons faster than most.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Bolded relevant. This feat says "You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action.". If weapon-like objects are not also treated as weapons for standard rule purposes of drawing or sheathing there would be no need to make a specific exception apply to the feat (Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.)
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At my table I do no allow EQ to store wands.
However, I will allow you to have as man as 10-12 wands in your belt... and a belt is practically free.
but would you allow them to be drawn like arrows? (basicly a free action to draw?).
Can I store them in a normal quiver or bolt case?
(edited) wait, I should have asked.
Why do you not allow someone to store wands in an EQ?
and
What non-arrow items do you allow to be stored in an EQ?
No, the only way I know of to draw a wand as a free action is with a spring-loaded spring sheath.
You could store wands i a bolt case without too much trouble. but quivers are not optimal since wands are significantly shorter than your standard arrow.
I do not allow wands to be stored in an EQ since they do not fit any of these three categories:
1) the same general size and shape as an arrow.
2) the same general size and shape as a javelin.
3) the same general size and shape as a bow.
I allow storage of bows, spears, short spears, javelins, staffs, arrows and crossbow bolts. Similar items I would probably allow, like pillum, but not a wand or a rod.
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Why can I put these in an EQ and not wands?Different shapes? No little feathers on the side of the wand so the quiver doesn't think they belong in there?
Put. the glue. Down. :)
Ummmm. You do know that typical crossbow bolts don't have little feathers, they wouldn't work well with how a crossbow works...
Metal or wooden shaft, much shorter than an arrow because a crossbow works differently than a stick bow, pointy bit, no nock, and I think small, solid vanes for in-flight guidance.
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Do you let players draw "bows, spears, short spears, javelins, staffs,... Similar items... like pillum," from an EQ as a free action? (Like arrows and other ammo).The hunting&target bolts for my RL crossbow are 6" to 9" long, less than my daughters toy Fairy Princess Wand... I've also seen 6" solid iron bolts for a crossbow (not my hunting crossbow).
Why can I put these in an EQ and not wands?
No, they are not ammunition.
Crossbow bolts are as far as I would stretch the term "general size and shape as an arrow". Wands fall outside this definition and don't belong in a quiver to begin with.
I am not saying GMs that treat this differently are doing it wrong - I am saying that this is how it works at my games :)
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I am not saying GMs that treat this differently are doing it wrong - I am saying that this is how it works at my games :)
I wish PFS GMs were more interested in trying to promote consistency (for players' sakes) instead of being so ready to stop at "my games". Yes, our first priority should be to handle our own tables. But our next priority should be to help each other come to consensus where possible in order to help provide consistent rulings where possible in order to prevent un-fun "gotcha" moments where a player changes GMs and gets something taken away from their character.
No, not everything can (or should) be determined ahead of time. But I think we could do a lot better if we just remember to think beyond our own tables.
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thank you for the humor. really. it makes it easier to say this.
surely you have seen some of the pictures of wands in fantasy art?, having one (or more) with little feathered fins would be no streach.
so your objection to storing wands in an EQ is that they are not arrow like enough? sigh. But a staff is spearlike enough. oookkkk... got it.
I don't have an objection to wands going into an efficient quiver, but I can see the legitimate interpretation of a DM disagreeing, especially considering its mostly fluff whether its in your quiver or on a belt.
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and now Diego Winterborgyeah... sigh again...
To Bring this back to PFS, nosig, all I can add it that even in PFS, for rules not covered by any offical document the GM has to right to make their own call at their table.
So when you are asking questions not covered by specific rules, expect table variation, and be willing to accept the GMs call.
As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and responsibility to make whatever calls you feel are necessary at your table to ensure that everyone has a fair and fun experience. This does not mean you can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in this document, a published Pathfinder Roleplaying Game source, errata document, or official FAQ on paizo.com, but only you can judge what is right at your table for cases not covered in these sources.
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Seems to be that most bad rulings are based on power/balance assumptions which are in turn based on more bad rulings.
Case in point, "Drawing any item from the first compartment of an EQ is always a free action, therefore putting anything in it that can't normally be drawn as a free action is unbalancing/overpowered, therefore you can't put any such item in the EQ."
Someone starts with an assumption that's not supported by the rules, makes a balance judgment based on the unfounded assumption, then makes a so-called "ruling" based on the balance judgment.
If only people were able/willing to investigate the assumptions on which they base their understandings of things...
I'll preface this with I have no experience with pfs.but I think arguing whether a 12 inch object is arrow like enough vs an 18 inch object is really silly.
For two reasons, one if efficient quivers don't resize to their owner. (Its not a garment so no clue if it does) then a human could just buy a small sized EQ and suddenly the wands are long enough.
Two if EQ do resize then it seems silly to say you can stick a 12 inch object in when a gnome is using it but not when a human does.
Lastly I'm wondering if the DMs answering no way in hell at my table would allow an arrow shaft with no arrow head or feathers to be put in an EQ.
There is another bonus, if you ignore the whole free draw thing and just draw the wands like you would normally as a weapon like object from a scabbard. This is something you cannot do with a haversack.
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I am guessing here Dragnmoon, but it appears that some people (judges and players) are assuming that if it lets you draw an arrow as a free action it would let you draw a wand as a free action... I guess they are getting that from the name, believing that the word "efficient" would mean it is faster maybe?
The problem with this is that the same logic could be applied to a normal quiver. saying that it lets you draw arrows as a free action, so it should let you draw wands as a free action too... it doesn't really work that way, it's not the quiver that makes drawing an arrow a free action (and different from drawing a wand etc.).
Yeah, Putting a Wand in the Quiver, gives you zero benefit, so an odd thing to have so many posts about since allowing it would do absolutely nothing.