Is the werebear stats entry wrong?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

I was looking at the Werebear for my GF because she wants to play in a game I am running and she likes 'were' creatures I I noticed something off from bestiary 2.

In Bestiary 1 in the Lycanthropy section it says.

Ability Scores: +2 Wis, –2 Cha in all forms; +2 Str, +2 Con
in hybrid and animal forms. Lycanthropes have enhanced
senses but are not fully in control of their emotions and
animalistic urges. In addition to these adjustments to the
base creature’s stats, a lycanthrope’s ability scores change
when he assumes hybrid or animal form. In human form,
the lycanthrope’s ability scores are unchanged from the base
creature’s form. In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s
ability scores are the same as the base creature’s or the base
animal’s, whichever ability score is higher.

The part I put in bold is what is odd. In bestiary2 the Werebear in Hybrid form has Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8.

The 18 strength is what threw me off. The Animal form of a Werebear would be a Grizzly, Bear from Bestiary, the only bear in the book. So shouldn't a Werebear in Hybrid form have 23 Str(21[Grizzly]+2[Lycan]=23)? Also likewise a 21 Con as 19(Grizzly) +2(lycan) is 21.

Or is the wording bad in the bestiary and shouldn't include hybrid from in that statement.


TheSilverKnight wrote:

I was looking at the Werebear for my GF because she wants to play in a game I am running and she likes 'were' creatures I I noticed something off from bestiary 2.

In Bestiary 1 in the Lycanthropy section it says.

Ability Scores: +2 Wis, –2 Cha in all forms; +2 Str, +2 Con
in hybrid and animal forms. Lycanthropes have enhanced
senses but are not fully in control of their emotions and
animalistic urges. In addition to these adjustments to the
base creature’s stats, a lycanthrope’s ability scores change
when he assumes hybrid or animal form. In human form,
the lycanthrope’s ability scores are unchanged from the base
creature’s form. In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s
ability scores are the same as the base creature’s or the base
animal’s, whichever ability score is higher.

The part I put in bold is what is odd. In bestiary2 the Werebear in Hybrid form has Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8.

The 18 strength is what threw me off. The Animal form of a Werebear would be a Grizzly, Bear from Bestiary, the only bear in the book. So shouldn't a Werebear in Hybrid form have 23 Str(21[Grizzly]+2[Lycan]=23)? Also likewise a 21 Con as 19(Grizzly) +2(lycan) is 21.

Or is the wording bad in the bestiary and shouldn't include hybrid from in that statement.

Hm, odd. I figured perhaps they might have based the stats off the medium bear from 3.5, but that would result in a Str 21, as the large brown bear in 3.5 has a 27 Strength (literally a size-up from the black bear). Seems that the bears got nerfed in Pathfinder. They're not even worth being CR 4. :\


I think they nerfed bears up pretty bad... I want PROPER Bear animal companions too on that matter.

It's all these Cat people who are to blame :P

Grand Lodge

Ashiel wrote:
Hm, odd. I figured perhaps they might have based the stats off the medium bear from 3.5, but that would result in a Str 21, as the large brown bear in 3.5 has a 27 Strength (literally a size-up from the black bear). Seems that the bears got nerfed in Pathfinder. They're not even worth being CR 4. :\

Well from a player standpoint one would HAVE to assume that 'Grizzly, Bear' is the only option but that would also mean the Hybrid from should be large as well. So I suppose what we really need is the 'base animal' that is in neither book.

Even if you base it off of a Druid Companion bear of Medium size.

Bear:
Bear
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural
armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 claws (1d3); Ability Scores Str
15, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities
low-light vision, scent.
4th-Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d6),
2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2.

It would still result in a 21 Str total 15(base)+ 4(Size) + 2(Lycan)=21


Shifty wrote:
It's all these Cat people who are to blame :P

Cat people are always to blame.

Grand Lodge

Mighty Squash wrote:
Shifty wrote:
It's all these Cat people who are to blame :P
Cat people are always to blame.

I am a Cat person. I still like bears.

Dogs tho...Dogs can leave.


I'm one of those weird cat people who also likes dogs (cats more though, because dogs are just too crazy); and I also solidly believe that bears are awesome enemies and cooler allies. I mean, anyone ever seen the opening cinematic for the original World of Warcraft?

Seriously bears are awesome animal companions!

Silver Crusade

Yes, but why are bear companions only medium while wolves are feakin huge! (Well, Large size, but you know what I mean)

As to the origninal question, I am not certain. It does seem to be off.


If u want to look at it from another point off view,

In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s ability scores are the same as the base crature’s or the base animal’s, whichever ability score is higher.

When they talk about the base creature they are not talking about the were-type that attacked them or the Shape they change into e.g Bear Boar Rat etc but the Infected creatures original (the persons base stats) when you look at the bestiary it shows the HUMAN stats first at Str 16 and Con 13, and in bear form or hybrid form its Str 18 and Con 15 that's the +2 +2. now if the Original form was a bear that was infected to shape change to a hybrid u would be in a world of hurt!

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/lycanthrope.html#_lyc anthrope,-werebear

how does that look to u now!?

Grand Lodge

Ashiel wrote:

I'm one of those weird cat people who also likes dogs (cats more though, because dogs are just too crazy); and I also solidly believe that bears are awesome enemies and cooler allies. I mean, anyone ever seen the opening cinematic for the original World of Warcraft?

Seriously bears are awesome animal companions!

Agreed accept that when a Dwarf actually tames a bear in game it shrinks to half his height. Same for any mob. I tamed a 15ft wide flaming purple spider I want to stay that way not become 3ft wide. Or I tamed a 25ft tall T-rex why is it now only 10ft? :( In understand the game mechanic that Big pets are big on screen and block s!$# but if they don't want us to have big pets why make them big in the world? Can anyone tell I main a hunter?

Back to pathfinder. It just seems like they skrewed up with Lycans in general by not providing the proper animals. Hell they don't even need to Supply examples of Werecritters since the rules state that you just need a base creature and a base animal within one size of the base creature. Why no WereDeinonychus 2 Claws, a bite and pounce. Plus a nice con so you can focous you stats on Dex or Str. Dex based WereDeinonychus with weapon finesse would be awesome :P

Grand Lodge

Jacomus wrote:

If u want to look at it from another point off view,

In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s ability scores are the same as the base crature’s or the base animal’s, whichever ability score is higher.

When they talk about the base creature they are not talking about the were-type that attacked them or the Shape they change into e.g Bear Boar Rat etc but the Infected creatures original (the persons base stats) when you look at the bestiary it shows the HUMAN stats first at Str 16 and Con 13, and in bear form or hybrid form its Str 18 and Con 15 that's the +2 +2. now if the Original form was a bear that was infected to shape change to a hybrid u would be in a world of hurt!

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/lycanthrope.html#_lyc anthrope,-werebear

how does that look to u now!?

I think you are missing this.

In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s
ability scores are the same as the base creature’s or the base
animal’s, whichever ability score is higher.

It states that in Hybrid form it takes the highest stat between the base creature(human in this case) and the Animal(Unknown). The only Bear in the beastry is a Grizzly Bear with a Str of 21. So if that same human with 16 Str went hybrid the Higest Str of his Base or Animal form is 21 and 21+2(Lycan benefit) is 23.

If you didn't miss that than I don't know what you are trying to say. Unless the Bear that Werebear transforms into has a Str of 16 or less his Hybrid Str should be Higher than 18.

I think this is Why the Book should also list their animal form stats or make a page reference. All the other Lycans' in the book their animals have a stat block under that name e.g Wolf, Rat, Boar and Tiger are Called; Wolf, rat, Boar and Tiger in the Beastly. So either the Werebear needs a reference creature or it needs to be named WereGrizzly Bear and have its stats adjusted.


The stats almost work if they're based off the black bear. The Bestiary states you can create a black bear by applying the young simple template to a grizzly bear. If you do that, you get a medium-sized bear with strength 17 and con 15. That still doesn't quite match the werebear sample (should be 19 and 17 in hybrid form, rather than 18 and 15), but it's closer.

Either way, statblock errors aren't unheard of :)


Ok lets clear this up.

Piazo have made a set of Lycans just a few so far,

These are considered NATURAL Lycan (Born, not made). And they have SET stats. Based on a class they are best suited to eg Tiger = rogues etc.
This is at the top of each type, right under the XP listing.

There are some basic rules they set if the Game master wanted to CURSE the players with this disease.

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su) A natural lycanthrope's bite attack in animal or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 15 negates). If the victim's size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope's size, this ability has no effect.

Now... Lets only look at the bear, thats what u seem to like,

In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s ability scores are the same as the base creature’s or the base animal’s, whichever ability score is higher.

The best way to explain this is ANY Natural Lycan in human form have this set of stats,

Human natural werebear ranger 4
CG Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 34 (4d10+8)Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +2
OFFENSE Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk battleaxe +9 (1d8+4/×3)
Ranged mwk throwing axe +7 (1d6+3)
Special Attacks favored enemy (orcs +2)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +2)1st—detect poison
STATISTICS
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +7; CMD 19

In Hybrid Bear form it has,

Human natural werebear ranger 4
LG Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 38 (4d10+12)Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2 DR 10/silver
OFFENSE Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk battleaxe +10 (1d8+4/×3), bite +3 (1d6+2 plus curse of lycanthropy), claw +3 (1d6+4 plus grab)
Ranged mwk throwing axe +7 (1d6+4)Special Attacks favored enemy (orcs +2) Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +2)1st—detect poison
STATISTICS
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +8 (+12 grapple); CMD 20

Now As an example U are h half elf ( Medium size) Class (base: Mage)
Stats Str 8, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 15

U get Cursed by the Lycan bear, in normal form u now have,
Stats Str 8, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 13

NOW! When u change to hybrid u draw the strongest stats from both you and the hybrid ( KEEPING IN MIND that the natural hybrids stats e.g Str 18, already have the bonus's factored in)

The Lycan's Stats naturally
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8

So U take the strength 18 from the lycan (yours is 10 after the bonus's) your dex is higher at 15 the Lycans con at 15 (yours is 13 after the infection) your intel at 18, your Wisdom at 15 and your Charisma at 13

The Curse (after the basic affliction to Charisma) can only enhance other stats,

Next point...If you where a Warrior!
Pre curse,
Str 18, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 15.

Cursed Normal form,
Str 18, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 13.

Cursed (Hybrid)
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 13
(After taking the best from both.)

When they are saying ANIMAL form they are refering to the Pre-set stats of the base Hybrid (be it Bear, Boar, Wolf, Rat or other) not a standard animal, in your case a bear, brown black or otherwise.

Then there is the foot note at the bottom of the Bestiary,

When a PC becomes a lycanthrope, you as the GM have a choice to make. In most cases, you should take control of the PC's actions whenever he is in hybrid or animal form—lycanthropy shouldn't be a method to increase a PC's power, after all, and what an afflicted lycanthrope does while in animal or hybrid form is often at odds with what the character would actually want. If a player wants to play a lycanthrope, he should play a natural lycanthrope and follow the guidelines for playing a character of a powerful race.

Power races:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html


Best thing for it is to build a new stat block from scratch using the grizzly bear. It might not be an error but it seems to be built off some small or medium bear which isn't in any of the bestiaries.

Grand Lodge

Jacomus wrote:

Ok lets clear this up.

Piazo have made a set of Lycans just a few so far,

These are considered NATURAL Lycan (Born, not made). And they have SET stats. Based on a class they are best suited to eg Tiger = rogues etc.
This is at the top of each type, right under the XP listing.

There are some basic rules they set if the Game master wanted to CURSE the players with this disease.

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su) A natural lycanthrope's bite attack in animal or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 15 negates). If the victim's size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope's size, this ability has no effect.

Now... Lets only look at the bear, thats what u seem to like,

In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s ability scores are the same as the base creature’s or the base animal’s, whichever ability score is higher.

The best way to explain this is ANY Natural Lycan in human form have this set of stats,

Human natural werebear ranger 4
CG Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 34 (4d10+8)Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +2
OFFENSE Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk battleaxe +9 (1d8+4/×3)
Ranged mwk throwing axe +7 (1d6+3)
Special Attacks favored enemy (orcs +2)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +2)1st—detect poison
STATISTICS
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +7; CMD 19

In Hybrid Bear form it has,

Human natural werebear ranger 4
LG Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 38 (4d10+12)Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2 DR 10/silver
OFFENSE Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk battleaxe +10 (1d8+4/×3), bite +3 (1d6+2 plus curse of lycanthropy), claw +3 (1d6+4 plus grab)
Ranged mwk throwing axe +7 (1d6+4)Special Attacks favored enemy (orcs +2) Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +2)1st—detect...

That would make sense accept that's NOT how it is presented. A natural Lycan or a cursed both have an Animal form. And the Abilities block states that the stats are adjusted to the highest of the Base creature OR the base animal while in hybrid and animal form. Since we ALWAYS have the base creature as its who's affected we need the Base animal.

Not to mention your solution does noting to explain a Natural's stats. By your explanation a natural would never have stats higher than his stats when he became a first level accept he has +2 str,+2con when he shape-shifts. Which however is completely wrong because he still has an animal form and that animal is very likely stronger than him thus his str or other stats would be higher as a Hybrid or a animal. You can't ignore that the base animal IS part of the building if it wasn't than lycans are no more dangerous than any other classed character with enlarge person cast on them.


lol

That would make sense accept that's NOT how it is presented. A natural Lycan or a cursed both have an Animal form. And the Abilities block states that the stats are adjusted to the highest of the Base creature OR the base animal while in hybrid and animal form. Since we ALWAYS have the base creature as its who's affected we need the Base animal.

You do have the base Animal, its the second part to the Lycan as shown in the bestiary, its listed as the hybrid, they add the +2 Str and +2 con on it as well, its there base, thats why they added,

In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s ability scores are the same as the base creature’s or the base animal’s, whichever ability score is higher.

So what u do is take the players stats and add the strength and con bonus when they change,
then compare the stats of the Bestiary's Hybrid form and take the strongest of both if your players strength is still weak after the Bonus u take the strength 18 from the hybrid or if your players strength is higher than 18 once it has the +2 then u keep the players stat, and the same for the rest of the stats leaving u with a nice buff beast.

Not forgetting that those small stat bonuses are not the only things they get, the player also gets all the animal feats listed and combat attacks like bites and claws etc.

What i'm saying is when u take the hybrid / Bear form u don't go through
and find the grizzly bear stats and whack them on u take the stats of the Lycan's base hybrid stats as written in the book save for one thing, which is as said b4 u keep the highest stats from your character or the lycan what ever is the highest score.

Anyway, if you are the Game master you should do what works best for you, As all Role play games state,

These books are not RULES so much as GUIDE LINES to help make the play experience fun. You could make your girlfriends Hybrid / Animal form a 14 foot Dire Grizzly and set the stats u want it to have if that makes your game easier, everything is ultimately left to the interpretation of the Game Master so nothing is ever Permanent. Better yet write up your own version of a Lycan give it a 2 turn Bone snapping Transformation that can demoralize any one watching at a neg 5 penalty with a natural spring attack feat not requiring the Prerequisites, its all good. Have fun with it >.- remember there is no right and wrong for a Game Master only your Will.


Jacomus: The point everyone is trying to make here is that you can use the Lycanthrope template to create other lycans beyond the sample Werecreatures that are given stats in the various Bestiaries.

When you do that, you need a base creature (usually a humanoid with class levels) and a base animal (any animal found in any Bestiary). Then you use the template's rules to create the hybrid form and the animal form.

The same set of stats should be the result if one creates a Werebear from scratch (for instance as one would do before Bestiary 2 was released) as by taking the sample Werebear from Bestiary 2. That's where the discrepancy comes in, and that's the reason some (including me) believe there's a statblock error. It's not a huge error, but if there is indeed an error, it should be fixed in errata.

Grand Lodge

Jacomus:
Jacomus wrote:

lol

That would make sense accept that's NOT how it is presented. A natural Lycan or a cursed both have an Animal form. And the Abilities block states that the stats are adjusted to the highest of the Base creature OR the base animal while in hybrid and animal form. Since we ALWAYS have the base creature as its who's affected we need the Base animal.

You do have the base Animal, its the second part to the Lycan as shown in the bestiary, its listed as the hybrid, they add the +2 Str and +2 con on it as well, its there base, thats why they added,

In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s ability scores are the same as the base creature’s or the base animal’s, whichever ability score is higher.

So what u do is take the players stats and add the strength and con bonus when they change,
then compare the stats of the Bestiary's Hybrid form and take the strongest of both if your players strength is still weak after the Bonus u take the strength 18 from the hybrid or if your players strength is higher than 18 once it has the +2 then u keep the players stat, and the same for the rest of the stats leaving u with a nice buff beast.

Not forgetting that those small stat bonuses are not the only things they get, the player also gets all the animal feats listed and combat attacks like bites and claws etc.

What i'm saying is when u take the hybrid / Bear form u don't go through
and find the grizzly bear stats and whack them on u take the stats of the Lycan's base hybrid stats as written in the book save for one thing, which is as said b4 u keep the highest stats from your character or the lycan what ever is the highest score.

Anyway, if you are the Game master you should do what works best for you, As all Role play games state,

These books are not RULES so much as GUIDE LINES to help make the play experience fun. You could make your girlfriends Hybrid / Animal form a 14 foot Dire Grizzly and set the stats u want it to have if that makes your game easier, everything is ultimately left to the...

I understand what you are getting at but the second stat block is ONLY the hybrid not the beast.

The Werewolf from the Bestiary1 is a perfect example to show that your method is missing the base creature.

Wolf
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Creature(Human)
Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 8
Hybrid
Str 19, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 8

As you can see a By the book Wolf has a dex of 15 while the base creature has only 13. Being a Lycan does NOT add any dex. However when he Turns hybrid he takes the highest of the stats available between is Base animal(wolf) and the base creature(human). Therefore in hybrid form his dex is SET to 15 by his Wolf base animal. Also you will notice that the Wolf has a con of 15 while the human has a con of 14 notice the hybrid has a 17 con otherwise 15(wolf)+2(Lycan bonus)= 17

Same is true for The Were rat, Tiger and Boar. The only one with a wrong stat block is the Werebear.

Rat:
Rat
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 4
Human
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 6
Hybrid
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 6
Notice Dex

Boar:
Boar
Str 17, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 4
Human(Str and con have 2 stats raging and not raging)
Str 14/19, Dex 13, Con 14/18,Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Hybrid(Str and con have 2 stats raging and not raging)
Str 19/23, Dex 13, Con 19/23, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Notice Str 17(Boar base)+ 2(Lyacn bonous)+ 4(rage)=23
and Con 17(Boar base)+ 2(Lyacn bonous)+ 4(rage)=23

Tiger:
Tiger
Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Human
Str 13, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Hybrid
Str 25, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Notice Str is 25=23(tiger base)+2(lycan bonus)
and Con is 19=17(Tiger Base)+2(Lycan Bonus)

Even if you base the were bear on a Black Bear or a Medium Brown Bear(FYI Grizzlys are the smallest of the Brown bear family fail Pazio) by applying the young template to the Grizzly the Str is 1 too low the Dex is 3 too low and the Con is the only thigh that is right. Also seeing as the Weretiger is based on a Large Tiger there is no reason the Werebear wound't be based off a large bear and have a 23 Str as the Tiger has a 25!!!! That means a Were tiger level 1 any class can have a 25 Str!!! Therefore a Natural born Tiger is completely in control of his hybrid and can wreck a 2nd or 3rd level players face off with naturals forget class abilities.

My point being... Jacomus you seem to be playing devils advocate or think yo have knowledge beyond the printed rules. We need to know what bear they used to make that block or completely ignore it and rebuild it using the Grizzly as the Base Animal.

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