So I'm in a gaming group that meets once a month and all my players are "dungeon" guys; prefer linear to non-linear story, or no story at all; groan if they have to talk "in character" to anyone; extremely combat-centric; you know the type.
Anyway, I'm rebooting my campaign back to first level and have a nice light story that will carry them to a lot of different dungeons. I've used the 5 Room Dungeon method almost exclusively in previous games, but then even adding a few extra rooms here and there I still end up with the 15 minute workday.
So I'm toying wtih the idea of going back to my roots from way back in hs, when "dungeon" meant roughly 2 dozen scenes, all statted out, and a high amount of diversity bordering on insanity.
Please help me weigh the pros and cons between these 2 styles, or if you have a way to blend them seamlessly I'm all ears. For those who've not experienced 5 Room Dungeons: here
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They both have their pros and cons, of course.
I typically use something akin to the 5 Room Dungeon when it's only a small section of the current adventure:
-Raid the hideout of the Bad People to find the location of their Big Boss.
-Go find ingredient X, needed for ritual Y which is required to advance the story.
The "classic" style, I use when I want an actual dungeon-crawl adventure. Oddly, I really like throwing at least one "5 Room Dungeon" within a larger dungeon crawl. Usually something akin to a "bonus room", complete with secret door, high difficulty Near-BBEG, and a great reward.
I did something similar in my very first dungeon of my last campaign: after a haunt, then some evil crows, a giant beetle and a puzzle encounter the party finally descends into the actual underground crypt to a "safe room" they can camp in; a library.
There's only one thing wrong with their hideout: the red velvet curtain. It's hanging over a section of wall at the far end of the library. Now the party can leave the library and explore the dungeon at their liesure, but eventually their curiosity got the better of them and they looked behind the curtain. There they found a massive, coffered iron door studded with spikes. The moment flesh touched the door a spectral image of the ruined abbey's matron mother sternly warned them of a terrible horror concealed beyond; a consumer of the dead infesting the original crypts before it was sealed off and contained. It named the horror: the Swarmlord.
The party decided to replace the curtain, ignore the door, and heed the nun's ghost. Had they opened the door there was 1) the guardian: a cockroach swarm at the top of a spiral staircase, 2) the trick: a skill challenge to cross a pitted, uneven earthen floor through a hall literally CRAWLING with insects that are held at bay only by a wierd mold growing in tiny patches here and there, 3) the setback: at the end of the hall a safe landing that turns left up a flight of stairs and into the final chamber a mere 60' away... except that as soon as the party takes another step the floor gives way into a nightmare of giant beetles; the pc's can either stand and fight (tough) or get into a chase scene slowly ascending up burrowed tunnels and back to the stairway they saw a minute before, and 4) the main event: going toe to toe w/the Swarmlord (CR 4 living humanoid swarm creature) only to find that 5) the revelation: the walls of the chamber behind the original masonry of the crypt are one gigantic hive to "respawn" the creature, effectively making it eternal. The party can delay the event by attacking the hive, interwoven into which they find some phenomenal treasure and a secret door leading back into the dungeon.
Fun to write up; sucky that the party never encountered it. I don't think I'll re-use in my current game (fey theme - looking for something a little more dancing lights, faerie fire esque) but I like that idea of a side quest.
I guess my issue with the 5 room dungeon is the inevitibility of it all. One room leads to the next, leads to the next... but then the opposite argument was what brought me to them in the first place: old-school dungeon hacks always seemed so conveniently random. For example, why would there be a circular track of water flowing endlessly through the walls of 4 rooms, other than to support a single, non-sequetor encounter?
I guess my issue with the 5 room dungeon is the inevitibility of it all. One room leads to the next, leads to the next...
Could you elaborate on this please?
@AT: thanks for the advice (not snarky at all). I think I'll go w/a larger dungeon only because I've crafted SEVERAL 5 room ones and the players quite frankly just didn't seem to like them. And your post reminded me once again that its about having fun and doing what we like.
I have to say, as a player, I'm more inclined to pay attention to details as we game: jotting down names, chatting w/other players in character and noting wierdness in dungeons or on adventures for later research ("so in that ruined monastery we found a gallery of portraits. Who were they and why were their pictures hanging in a secret underground library? I'm going to use Knowledge: Nobility, History, or the Information Gathering of a Diplomacy check and try and chat with sages to figure it out.")
But as a GM I don't know if I've got the time/energy/resources for such planning any more and I'm certain that my players are less likely to pursue these threads than I am. For that reason I refer back to your post: why create a note, or god forbid a paragraph, detailing such when it turns into no fun for any of us?
I guess for me it's always come down to efficiency. In a 5 room dungeon the rooms all sort of relate to one another so there's a sense of flow between them and they build on one another. This coupled with the small size means I can churn through them quickly but I get the sense this isn't what my players want. I did do a sprawl once in my last campaign but we wrapped it pretty quick due to real-world time; despite achieving the quest objective it felt abbreviated and forced to all of us.
Its about having fun after all isn't it?
EM: I hear you and in one dungeon for the last game I did that. The dungeon setup was this: there are 4 possible influences to the dungeon, all focused on dealing with a forlarren barbarian who is guarding an ancient tomb. There was a green dragon who wanted her loot, a shadow demon imprisoned in a runestone who could only be free if she was slain, a dryad's spirit that just wanted to save her baby and the forlarren who, like the incredible hulk, just wanted to be left alone.
So each area had it's little vignette. The runestone had a bunch of shadows and haunts of duped souls who either couldn't get the job done or got trapped and lost their minds. The dragon had the classic dungeon feel with a trap a construct a hazard and then the actual dragon and it's treasure. The dryad's area was all outside (the party's approach at the time) and she actually served as the "revelation" in the "5th room". Finally the forlarren was at the top of a spiral staircase which was open to the forest topside so it was covered in roots and vines she'd shaped into traps over the years and by the time the party got to the top they were supposed to be nickel-and-dimed to nothing.
Now here's the thing: the party closed out the whole approach and got to the dryad no problem. Part of the dryad area required the party to deal with a treant which the party killed (2 ch. neutrals and an evil in the party) so, predictably the dryad was pissed and said the only way they would be redeemed was to go in and bring the forlarren out alive. This is where things went sideways.
I'd set up each vignette with main baddies that kind of had to stay put; the dragon's too big, the demon's in his prison and the forlarren is free to leave but doesn't want to. So I needed the party to close out the areas one at a time or manage their resources. Instead they went partway into the dragon's area, got to the hazard, and said screw this and went to explore some of the demon rooms. There they got beat down by haunts and got fed up w/not being able to beat them back so they left that and, rather than leave, they decided to go back and brave the brown mold/crumbling archway trap/hazard.
By the time they got to the green dragon they were in NO shape to fight it. The thing convinced them to kill the forlarren (there's a paladin in this party FYI that just gave her word to the dryad's spirit to bring the poor creature out alive) and loot her lair for it. They leave there, ignore the dragon's advice, and delve deeper into the demon area (now that they've figured out the haunts) looking for something to turn the tide on the dragon.
They find the stone, the demon makes contact with the rogue and dominates him into going and killing the forlarren with a special blade that'll send her soul to eternal torment. They're now dang near wiped out, working for 3 different masters with 3 different agendas, and after we wrapped the adventure who was the bad guy for their gross mis-management of resources and lack of ability to follow any single task to it's end?
Me. I'm the GM, I made the dungeon. Must be my fault.
I'm now in the process of trying to move away from multi-layered plots, agendas, and otherwise. All 3 of the players that remain from my original 6 have said they were born and raised as gamers on stuff like Temple of Elemental Evil, Tomb of Horrors and White Plume Mountain. They also love games like Diablo, Grimrock and Skyrim. To that point I'm focused on delivering the kind of fun they want.
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Some great content being shared here guys!
I sort of miss the old beer and pretzel dungeoncrawls.
I miss dungeons too, but I also miss being a kid to play them. One room's got a bugbear skulking about, the hallway has a deadly head-lopper trap, then at the end of that hall's another room of wierd dimensions and shape w/a crystal chandolier and six giant rats. Where is their food, or water or even AIR coming from? Who maintains the head-lopper? Why doesn't the bugbear do something about the rats?
No...at some point (I don't really know when) dungeons started having to make sense to me. Even if it was all explained by magic SOMEHOW there had to be a reason to it; a mad mage built this dungeon or a portal to the negative material plane fuels the undead in the crypt etc.
When they do make sense though megadungeons are nice and easy for me as a GM. Think about it; all I need is a map and a handful of statblocks and I have an instantaneous game or multiple potential levels. I don't even need that much story (Descent board game proved that), I just need a reason for the party to be there in general and we're off to the races.
The 5 rooms are more personal. Each of the challenges somehow contributes to the overall so they're all interconnected in some way. As a result each new 5 room then needs it's own unique planning and execution. If I include more than 2 in a night it takes some serious work to get them together.
A lot of folks have said string together 5 room concepts into a larger dungeon. I have toyed with this and 1) I don't think my players noticed a difference between that or one big sprawl either in story or physical changes, and 2) it's still as much work; more even since my now-grown-up and logical brain then wants all the 5 rooms' to work w/each other cohesively.
I don't know about the rest of the posters out there, but for me it just comes down to time management. If I've got the time to plan AND I'm reasonably sure we'll have the time to execute on game night I'll make a bunch of small dungeons and string them together, either by plot, location or both. If it's a quick night and I've got a small amount of time either a single 5 room or a sprawl works just fine...
Hi Mark,
I love big dungeons. I say aim for that and to use 5 Room Dungeons tactically, as other commentators have mentioned.
I think the big thing 5RDs offer you is a mindset shift. Rather than "kick in the door, kill stuff, take their loot," you can craft cunning challenges by thinking in bigger terms of 5 location areas that connect and react together or in part when the PCs make their presence known.
For example, instead of going room by room, you can challenge the PCs in waves from a 5 area complex.
You can also create stories within stories easier with the 5RD model, if you give each 5RD its own plot point. Even if your players don't roleplay, they'll appreciate the mini-stories they chew through each session.
I just got the mega-adventure Slumbering Tsar in the mail. It's a massive book! I look forward to delving into its huge dungeons. I plan to sprinkle 5RDs in when PCs get off the tracks, when I feel like designing something, or when I think an area needs it. Love live mega dungeons!
OMG!!!
I got THE JOHNN FOUR to comment on my freaking post! WOO HOO!
No seriously; I've been lurking at your site I don't know HOW long. This is a real honor!
And I love the fact that, as THE 5RD guy you're saying use them tactically. That's actually the way I ended up going.
So I made this giant hex map, w/a bunch of interesting adventure sites (potential megadungeons) noted as known sites. The story will be a mix of sandbox style and linear plot.
BUT THENN...
The party starts as Indiana Jones-like delvers for a guild called the Archivists. Your last test to become guild members is field work, so the Archivists set the party up in a sort of "dungeon 0" which is a 5RD.
It tells the tale of a fallen hero of the land and begins in his mausoleum on a wooded cliff overlooking the sea. Rm 1: an elaborate puzzle/skill challenge to get in the door.
Rm 2: shadow-stuff tentacles which can either be hacked through OR shut down with a magic lantern from Rm 1.
Rm 3: after using the lantern one last time to open the secret door/sepulcher (I know; cliche, but whatev) then there's this REALLY LONG descent into a vacouous crypt hall below, with all these side crypts leading off the winding stairway; best part is they're being chased down said descent by a wall of water Indiana Jones style!
Rm 4: at the bottom the hall is already partially flooded and after the flood subsides the small water elementals are actively trying to keep the party from the raised dais at the far end in an antechamber.
Rm 5: atop the dais another sepulcher under a hole in the roof letting in a shaft of moonlight. Inside isn't a bod; just the shield of the fallen hero but SURPRISE! The coffin and lid are made of wood! Why? Because as soon as they take the shield the walls bust open and the antechamber begins flooding too! They can either swim out the way they came in OR just float up to the hole in the roof!
Then the rest of the game from there will have more of these tactical/cinematic dungeons thrown in in the form of extended wilderness challenges, actual delves, or interludes between main plot points. I'm also using the 5RD model for some interesting side quests which tie into the main plot.
Mr Four: thanks so much for all the resources and help you've provided over the years. Seriously you just gave me something to brag to my friends about. Hope all is well!
I did something similar in my very first dungeon of my last campaign: after a haunt, then some evil crows, a giant beetle and a puzzle encounter the party finally descends into the actual underground crypt to a "safe room" they can camp in; a library.
There's only one thing wrong with their hideout: the red velvet curtain. It's hanging over a section of wall at the far end of the library. Now the party can leave the library and explore the dungeon at their liesure, but eventually their curiosity got the better of them and they looked behind the curtain. There they found a massive, coffered iron door studded with spikes. The moment flesh touched the door a spectral image of the ruined abbey's matron mother sternly warned them of a terrible horror concealed beyond; a consumer of the dead infesting the original crypts before it was sealed off and contained. It named the horror: the Swarmlord.
The party decided to replace the curtain, ignore the door, and heed the nun's ghost. Had they opened the door there was 1) the guardian: a cockroach swarm at the top of a spiral staircase, 2) the trick: a skill challenge to cross a pitted, uneven earthen floor through a hall literally CRAWLING with insects that are held at bay only by a wierd mold growing in tiny patches here and there, 3) the setback: at the end of the hall a safe landing that turns left up a flight of stairs and into the final chamber a mere 60' away... except that as soon as the party takes another step the floor gives way into a nightmare of giant beetles; the pc's can either stand and fight (tough) or get into a chase scene slowly ascending up burrowed tunnels and back to the stairway they saw a minute before, and 4) the main event: going toe to toe w/the Swarmlord (CR 4 living humanoid swarm creature) only to find that 5) the revelation: the walls of the chamber behind the original masonry of the crypt are one gigantic hive to "respawn" the creature, effectively making it eternal. The party can delay the event by attacking the hive, interwoven into...
To me, this sounds like the perfect setup for a reoccurring villain. The players have already learned of the Swarmlord from the Matron's ghost. The plot point has been planted, give it some time and let it grow. This is a good case of foreshadowing; an obvious, imminent threat has been left completely untouched by the PC's. How long before this monster gets loose and the heroes have to live with the consequences of their inaction?
Easy setup; eventually, the party hears rumors of people missing, bodies found with the flesh completely devoured, and perhaps a few tell-tale bugs left behind at the scene. Maybe the Swarmlord imprinted itself on the PC who touched the door in the first place, that triggered the warning. Maybe it's hunting for this PC in particular.
You have a golden opportunity to turn this into a whole new adventure in and of itself!
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Eons ago, a mad wizard named Scald Ha'ankhs came into possession of a powerful artifact named Le Gofine de' Mak. This artifact was the very one the gods used to create life itself. Obviously, it was too powerful for any mortal to possess. Ha'ankhs spent years trying to destroy it, but failed. So he decided to hide it where no one could ever find it.
Ha'ankhs created an underground labyrinth so treacherous no one could survive and he placed the artifact deep within this dungeon. There it remained for centuries until recently when the wizard Lo Enive uncovered an ancient text which revealed the existence of the Gofine de' Mak.
It is imperative that we find this artifact before Lo Enive does. Unfortunately, we do not know where Ha'ankhs' labyrinth is. We do know of five possible sites; dungeons long hidden from the surface only recently discovered via divination. We have recruited your group to explore these sites and return the Gofine de' Mak if you find it.
Now just create 5-7 random dungeons and let your players explore them. No need to explain why they exists. Your players do not see like the kind to bother researching and if they do, they can uncover that each of them was created by Ha'ankhs to hide the artifact, but he was not satisfied with them for whatever reason and decided to try again.
I said 7, because at the end of the 5th dungeon, the PCs uncover a scroll which tells of a 6th (and in the 6th, they find one leading to a 7th) dungeon.
Break out ye old dungeon geoglyphs and CR appropriate monsters and you are set. You do not have to put in a lot of time crafting plots that your players will by pass and they get to whup on random monsters for a good cause.
Ok; here's MY plot synopsis (at least short term)
Recently numerous blights have befallen the Barony of Raveneszk; weird insect swarms and freak weather destroying crops. What's worse is that people go missing from nearby towns and villages around the time of these occurances; some return with no knowledge of where they've been let alone any explanation of why they're covered in bumps, bruises, and other small but numerous wounds. Others don't return at all.
The church of Abadar is the main influence in the barony outside of Lord Udolpf Von Raveneszk himself, so they've begun looking into the blights and their consequences. In the course of their investigations they've uncovered the ruins of a series of ancient shrines dedicated to the wicked old nobles of a bygone age in the heart of an ancient wooded hillside. They've also discovered that the lands are infested with evil fey.
The Party has been brought in by the church to expand their resources. The PC's won't start out confronting the blight directly; they're to explore the old ruins for relics of the past and try to stop some of the fey that have been using the woodland surroundings as their lairs. Along the way they'll meet some NPC's that will introduce side quests: exploring the shrines specifically to find a fallen noble's honor sword, hunting down and destroying an evil bugbear fear-mongerer known as the Nightmare King to end a curse, or braving a fey-haunted bog to save an old woodsman's daughter.
Now as the plot progresses whichever path they choose will sort of guide the game along. If they go after the girl it turns out that, while under the compulsions of her fey mistress she inadvertently began spreading a plague of lycanthropy which has infected the main NPC contact back in town. If they go after the Nightmare King it turns out there's some truth to his name and he's set in motion a doomsday scenario from contact with a nightmare demi-plane. The noble's honorsword puts them after the Baron himself who wickedly conspires with the fey.
Now, regardless of the outcome of any of these side plots, they all come back to a wandering fey coven posing as gypsies. Each place they visit they host a revel and cause a blight. It turns out that the ruins (first of 2 potential "megadungeons") holds power for these evil crones and they can use it to fuel their powers; creating mites or other evil minor fey, opening portals to the first world, etc.
In the end it will be revealed that a rogue sect of the church, the kindly and unassuming brothers of the Priory of St Erd from the first town were in fact the ones that set all this up to honor an ancient pact. Either they honor the bargain struck long ago and give the coven their due or terrible curses shall be unleashed and everyone will suffer.
The 2 megadungeons I have made will serve as fey/coven lair sites while the revel/blights are potential places for 5RD scenarios. Currently I only have this plotted out to 3rd level but all of this should keep my party busy for a while.
That sounds pretty cool. Lots of things going on, but lots of options for the players to pick and choose where to go. :)
A really nice scenario Mark. Should turn out to be a fun campaign.
Hags sound like they'd be good choices for leaders of these evil fey.
Maybe one of your five room dungeons could be a dense cursed section of forest where the hallways are game trails and the rooms are clearings and glades and stone circles and the like. I see a picture of the dark tree from Sleepy Hollow where the Headless Horseman comes out of. Maybe steal some ideas from the Feydark portion of the 4E Underdark book too.
L