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I searched and found people ruling both ways so I want this clear before I make my GM/Venture Captain make a table ruling.
As an Alchemist if I take Point Blank Shot I figured that the +1 damage applies to the direct hit, but does it change the splash damage?
Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb’s minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage).
It doesn't say "equal to the bomb's unmodified minimum damage", so I just want a clear ruling.
Thank you!
The same question was marked as a FAQ candidate in another thread, but it was subsequently marked "no reply required". :-/
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2qqf?Question-on-Bombs-and-Splash-Damage
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By RAW, yes it should apply to the splash damage. Not sure if that makes much sense intuitively, but your minimum damage is increased when within 30 feet, therefore so is the splash damage. I feel pretty confident about that since they specifically list using the amount of damage done on a direct hit to calculate the splash damage in the example.
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Think of it this way: Point-blank shot gives you a bonus to damage you do with a ranged weapon. Splash damage is not something you do, it's something the weapon does. The bomb doesn't have any feats, so the splash damage it throws out doesn't benefit from the feat.
See now I have to ask why?
The wording RAW says bombs minimum damage. It does NOT say unmodified minimum damage. Your INT modifier gets used, and PBS modifies the damage of the bomb just as INT does.
In practice, I've been erring on the side of caution (using min damage + Int bonus only).
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PBS adds +1 to attacks and damage. Splash damage doesn't result from an attack, much less a successful attack. It results from the stuff getting on adjacent targets and/or a miss. Splash weapons, for example, do not benefit from sneak attack or other precision based damage. An alchemist gets more than the typical 1 point of splash damage that normally happens with splash damage because of their expertise with the formulation. PBS stems from making the attack more effective both in being able to hit and hitting for extra damage; while it isn't precision damage (which would be explicitly excluded by the description of splash weapons) it gets very close.
PFS guys do not make rulings on the rules of the game. They make rulings only in those cases where the rules need to be modified due to the nature of the campaign. The developers have already responded to it, saying no reply is needed.
Organized play will result in some table variance. If you are a player, as your GM at the session, and abide by that result. Adding it in, when you know that there is variance, is akin to intentionally misstating the result of your action. If you are the GM, make the ruling consistently for both the baddies and the PCs based upon your understanding of how the rules work. I would not expect a VC to over-rule a GM on this matter for all sorts of reasons, but your mileage may vary.
If you are looking for a ruling, you might have more luck with asking whether PBS is precision damage and/or looking for existing input on this. It is a general rule question that, if answered, would tie in with the rules on splash damage to get you a clear answer. There is an FAQ that PBS applies to bombs. The Q&A doesn't answer anything clearly about the splash aspect, though.
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Then how does it add damage to rays? You can't really make a ray more deadly than it already is.
As I said before, the direct damage the bomb does increases by 1 for having PBS. It doesn't say "PBS makes the glass from the flask do 1 point of damage".
Does precision and sneak attack damage get multiplied in the event of a crit? No. Does the magical damage from a +1 weapon get multiplied in the event of a crit? Yes. This is basically the same thing. Its an untyped bonus to attack and damage. So you're telling me if I had +1 bombs then that wouldn't effect the splash damage?
Think of it this way: Point-blank shot gives you a bonus to damage you do with a ranged weapon. Splash damage is not something you do, it's something the weapon does. The bomb doesn't have any feats, so the splash damage it throws out doesn't benefit from the feat.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. An alchemist adds their intelligence bonus to damage from their Throw Anything extraordinary ability, which says nothing about building better bombs in the description. In fact, if an alchemist gets a temporary intelligence buff after they have made their bombs, their splash damage still goes up. The bomb doesn't get the fox's cunning spell, the alchemist does, and that spell enables them to do higher splash damage.
I would say that PBS does add to the minimum damage and thus to the splash damage.
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Then how does it add damage to rays? You can't really make a ray more deadly than it already is.
Of course you can. Rays generally do damage. The amount of damage is generally a range. In other words, some 1d6 rays do 1 point of damage, others do 6. With PBS, you do +1...the ray is more effective. If you need a reason, think of it as hitting in a more effective location.
As I said before, the direct damage the bomb does increases by 1 for having PBS. It doesn't say "PBS makes the glass from the flask do 1 point of damage".
Same idea. You hit (attacked via the mechanism of an attack role) more effectively. You got it in the target's eye, hit more exposed skin, got some go into a seam of the armor, imagine it as you will. You are able to target your shot better to be more likely to hit (adjustment to hit) and to do damage on the shot (adjustment to damage).
Does precision and sneak attack damage get multiplied in the event of a crit? No. Does the magical damage from a +1 weapon get multiplied in the event of a crit? Yes. This is basically the same thing. Its an untyped bonus to attack and damage. So you're telling me if I had +1 bombs then that wouldn't effect the splash damage?
Neither precision nor sneak attack damage applies to a splash weapon. You say it's analogous to the magical enhancement bonus of a weapon rather than more akin to precision damage. If you see it that way, you may well come to that opinion. On the other hand, I tend to see PBS as more akin to precision damage. Pretty sure I already suggested that you get or seek input, maybe by starting a FAQ-soliciting thread on whether PBS is precision damage, which would answer it straight away.
I'm not saying anything about +1 bombs. Interesting concept, but frankly, I've never seen any splash weapon with an enhancement bonus. Then again, I'm not one of those types who has an encyclopedic knowledge of all the various resource options that are out there, either.
Here's the thing, I can trot out all the reasons it should work one way to me, and you can do the same. When push comes to shove, it's unclear, and so GMs are called upon to decide. So, ask your GM at the PFS table during pregame and follow his ruling. It isn't something that is going to make or break a build or your enjoyment of a given session of gaming.
Good gaming!
Howie, do you consider the +intelligence modifier to damage on bombs to also be precision damage? If not, what sort of damage is it?
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Howie, do you consider the +intelligence modifier to damage on bombs to also be precision damage? If not, what sort of damage is it?
Alchemists make bombs. Some make them better than others. This is reflected both in the intelligence modifier and the class based dice for the damage, both of which factor into the amount of splash. Both of them have to do with how big the boom is. Bigger boom...more damage...more splash.
Howie, do you consider the +intelligence modifier to damage on bombs to also be precision damage? If not, what sort of damage is it?Alchemists make bombs. Some make them better than others. This is reflected both in the intelligence modifier and the class based dice for the damage, both of which factor into the amount of splash. Both of them have to do with how big the boom is. Bigger boom...more damage...more splash.
So what happens when an alchemist makes a bomb, then drinks a potion of fox's cunning, then throws it? Would the extra intelligence not add to the bomb since it was not there at the time of constuction? Flip that around, would an alchemist who at one point in the day dropped a cognatogen, and some fox cunning, and anything else he could use to make his intelligence modifier increase then have superior bombs for the remainder of the day long after the effects of those temporary intelligence boosters wore off?
I don't see anything in the rules that supports that and think it's important enough to warrant a mention.
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It's rather moot. A bomb must be used in the same round it is made or becomes inert.
However, taking the concept forward, let's imagine an effect that applies intelligence damage (or boost), triggered by the mixing of the bomb. So, alchemist draws the components, creates the bomb, then suffers intelligence damage (or bonus), and then throws it. Does the Intelligence modifier get built in with the blending of the catalyst, the creation of the bomb, or the attack? I don't know...the rules are silent on it. The GM must make a ruling. I would suggest that it is the effective at the time the bomb is created, particularly given that the catalyst can remain good for years.
Blackblood, the question isn't whether those feats apply to bombs, but to their splash damage specifically.
A lot of this discussion has focused on the intent of the feat, but nobody has actually examined the feat itself. The text of the feat says "You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet." Splash damage requires no rolls, the damage is always a set amount, even though that amount is the minimum possible roll. Therefore, I would say no bonus damage.
The question in the other thread about the magic sling is debatable, but I don't even know if you could use a sling for the bomb.
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Blackblood, the question isn't whether those feats apply to bombs, but to their splash damage specifically.
A lot of this discussion has focused on the intent of the feat, but nobody has actually examined the feat itself. The text of the feat says "You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet." Splash damage requires no rolls, the damage is always a set amount, even though that amount is the minimum possible roll. Therefore, I would say no bonus damage.
The question in the other thread about the magic sling is debatable, but I don't even know if you could use a sling for the bomb.
You're right. You add that +1 to the damage roll of the bomb therefore increasing the minimum amount of damage done by that bomb by 1. In so facto increasing the damage done by the splash. Thanks for agreeing with me.
Alchemists make bombs. Some make them better than others. This is reflected both in the intelligence modifier and the class based dice for the damage, both of which factor into the amount of splash. Both of them have to do with how big the boom is. Bigger boom...more damage...more splash.
Okay so lets work off your concept of "bigger boom" and "more splash". Now you are being counter productive in your argument. If I have BPS then lets say I am better at throwing the bomb or I throw it harder or maybe I just strike with perfect geometrical angles...either way the resulting "more splash" will therefore hit the surrounding enemies with more of the liquid and cause more damage. And, for the sake arguing you are talking about 1 damage that you can save for half on...its not game breaking.
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It should apply to the splash damage. You can already make a reflex save for half damage, which means some monsters and npcs will avoid the damage all together. There is nothing unbalancing about it.
I've never heard anyone suggest that it's unbalancing, just that it seems a bit odd, at least for precision-based damage.
E.g. I'm a ranger/alchemist who has Favored Enemy (undead) and I throw a bomb at the intersection of two corridors. Unbeknownst to me, there's a skeleton hiding around the corner, but luckily my bomb is smart enough to do extra splash damage to it because of Favored Enemy. :-/
There isn't a really strong "common sense" argument to be made one way or the other (IMO), which makes it perfect fodder for a FAQ entry (again, IMO).
Blackblood, the question isn't whether those feats apply to bombs, but to their splash damage specifically.
A lot of this discussion has focused on the intent of the feat, but nobody has actually examined the feat itself. The text of the feat says "You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet." Splash damage requires no rolls, the damage is always a set amount, even though that amount is the minimum possible roll. Therefore, I would say no bonus damage.
Where as I would say 'yes' since the splash damage is specifically the minimum damage the bomb can do. The bomb has a damage (in thirty feet) of 1d6+(lvl/2)(round down)*d6+(Int Modifier) + PBS. So it's minimum damage would be 1+(lvl/2)(round down)*1+(Int modifier)+ PBS.
So the splash damage would alo be increased by Inspire Courage?
I would think so...its 1 damage with save for half...
1 extra damage here from PBS, 1 extra damage here from Prayer, 1 or more extra damage here from Inspire Courage, 1d6 extra sonic damage here from the bard's feat that adds 1d6 sonic damage to every weapon attacks made by allies under the effect of Inspire Courage, multiply all this extra damage for haste, TWF, Rapid Shot, etc.
It begins to matter man. :)
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I would think so...its 1 damage with save for half...1 extra damage here from PBS, 1 extra damage here from Prayer, 1 or more extra damage here from Inspire Courage, 1d6 extra sonic damage here from the bard's feat that adds 1d6 sonic damage to every weapon attacks made by allies under the effect of Inspire Courage, multiply all this extra damage for haste, TWF, Rapid Shot, etc.
It begins to matter man. :)
Which all applies to poisoned daggers thrown by a Rogue, arrows shot by a Ranger, scatterguns fired by Gunslingers, throwing & returning swords tossed by a fighter- but Alchemists? Heck no. Their items deal minimum energy damage to a small area, what are you thinking?
The Mook's Union will have our pensions in a vice! And can you even begin to conceive of the scenery damage? I shudder to think of what the Association of Dungeon Engineers and League of Druidic Laborers will demand in response. And the picket lines will smell terrible.
I would think so...its 1 damage with save for half...1 extra damage here from PBS, 1 extra damage here from Prayer, 1 or more extra damage here from Inspire Courage, 1d6 extra sonic damage here from the bard's feat that adds 1d6 sonic damage to every weapon attacks made by allies under the effect of Inspire Courage, multiply all this extra damage for haste, TWF, Rapid Shot, etc.
It begins to matter man. :)
Which all applies to poisoned daggers thrown by a Rogue, arrows shot by a Ranger, scatterguns fired by Gunslingers, throwing & returning swords tossed by a fighter- but Alchemists? Heck no. Their items deal minimum energy damage to a small area, what are you thinking?
The Mook's Union will have our pensions in a vice! And can you even begin to conceive of the scenery damage? I shudder to think of what the Association of Dungeon Engineers and League of Druidic Laborers will demand in response. And the picket lines will smell terrible.
Sorry Parka, did I say it was wrong and that I'm against it? No, what I'm saying is that, if it works for PBS, then it would work for all those extra sources of damage that I mentionned above. We are not just talking about 1 or 0.5 extra damage anymore, like ossian666 said, but about a substantial source of extra damage for all creatures caught in the splash radius. Is it RAW or RAI? I don't know, but I know for sure that the way you rule it in your own game will have a great impact on the Alchemist's DPS. Given all the "Oh my God! The Alchemist is overpowered!" thread we see on this forum, we can be sure that some people out there aren't going to like it. Me? I'll ask my players what they think about it and if they are all fine with it, then I'm just going to roll with it.
EDIT: I have re-read the Bomb description and it seems pretty RAW.
Sorry Parka, did I say it was wrong and that I'm against it?
Your tone conveyed concern over the amount of damage an Alchemist could deal. That implies a reluctance to allow it, so I inferred you were against it. Did I miss something to get to that wrong conclusion?
No, what I'm saying is that, if it works for PBS, then it would work for all those extra sources of damage that I mentioned above.
We're not even in disagreement. The only reason I could remotely think of why people are reluctant to apply Point Blank Shot is the idea that the damage bonus comes from precision, which would not work on splash weapons. Point blank shot's bonus damage is not precision damage, though, so as we agree, it works. Even if Point Blank Shot was precision damage, though, the above things would still work, since they aren't precision damage and therefore nothing bars them from affecting splash weapons.
(As far as Alchemist DPR or other people's balance concerns, it sounds like we both know how to best handle that: go to your own group)
Sorry Parka, did I say it was wrong and that I'm against it?Your tone conveyed concern over the amount of damage an Alchemist could deal. That implies a reluctance to allow it, so I inferred you were against it. Did I miss something to get to that wrong conclusion?
No, what I'm saying is that, if it works for PBS, then it would work for all those extra sources of damage that I mentioned above.We're not even in disagreement. The only reason I could remotely think of why people are reluctant to apply Point Blank Shot is the idea that the damage bonus comes from precision, which would not work on splash weapons. Point blank shot's bonus damage is not precision damage, though, so as we agree, it works. Even if Point Blank Shot was precision damage, though, the above things would still work, since they aren't precision damage and therefore nothing bars them from affecting splash weapons.
(As far as Alchemist DPR or other people's balance concerns, it sounds like we both know how to best handle that: go to your own group)
Nope, I'm not reluctant to allow it, but one of my players is playing an Alchemist and before reading this thread I didn't know that splash damage was supposed to be increased by stuff like PBS and Inspire Courage (and I'm sure I'm not the only one). Now, if we apply this rule in my game, it won't result in an insignificant +1 extra splash damage per bomb, but more something like +5 extra splash damage per bomb (my PCs like buffs). I'm fine with it, but it will also make a significant difference in terms of DPR a people should just be aware of it.
Now the question is: Does weapon specialization apply to splash damage? Inquiring stingchuck throwers want to know.
To splash weapons' splash damage as a whole? I think no. To alchemist bombs' splash damage? I think yes.
Are splash weapons in any of the fighter's weapon groups?
The only way to increase splash damage that I am aware of is with alchemist bombs specifically and that's by increasing the overall damage since they have specific language that states that the splash damage is the minimum damage of the direct hit.
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Well, the Stingchuck is a weapon that is appropriate for weapon focus, and weapon specialization. It is also a splash weapon.
It's a weapon with a splash effect that deals 1 point of damage.
Weapon Specialization (Combat)
You are skilled at dealing damage with one weapon. Choose one type of weapon (including unarmed strike or grapple) for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
With the alchemist bomb you make a damage roll for a direct hit, so weapon specialization would work on it -- since the splash on the alchemist bomb is the minimum damage of a direct hit weapon specialization would add to that too.
However with the stingchuck the damage for the splash is set at 1... I'm not really seeing a way to increase it yet.
It's splash damage, it doesn't get anything extra. The only reason the text calls out "the minimum damage of a direct hit" is because it's such an unusual and new concept (at the time). It can't call it "unmodified", because it's modified by the intelligence score, another unusual and new concept.
Does the target of the bomb get point blank shot, inspire courage, favored enemy, etc.? Of course. The splash gets nothing.
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It's splash damage, it doesn't get anything extra. The only reason the text calls out "the minimum damage of a direct hit" is because it's such an unusual and new concept (at the time). It can't call it "unmodified", because it's modified by the intelligence score, another unusual and new concept.
Does the target of the bomb get point blank shot, inspire courage, favored enemy, etc.? Of course. The splash gets nothing.
What is damage of the splash? The minimum damage of the bomb. Which includes all bonuses the bomb gets.
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What is damage of the splash? The minimum damage of the bomb. Which includes all bonuses the bomb gets.It's splash damage, it doesn't get anything extra. The only reason the text calls out "the minimum damage of a direct hit" is because it's such an unusual and new concept (at the time). It can't call it "unmodified", because it's modified by the intelligence score, another unusual and new concept.
Does the target of the bomb get point blank shot, inspire courage, favored enemy, etc.? Of course. The splash gets nothing.
See...just as we get through to one guy another pops out of the wood work.
The truth of the matter is the text is pretty clear. It says minimum damage of the bomb.
And as far as weapon damage not being modified I don't know what game you play but there are LOTS and I mean TONS of modified weapon damage for both melee AND ranged characters.
What is damage of the splash? The minimum damage of the bomb. Which includes all bonuses the bomb gets.
"The minimum damage of the bomb, including all bonuses" is ambiguous, since you could have different bonuses apply to different splash recipients.
Take the example of an alchemist 1/rogue 1/ranger 1 (with favored enemy undead and PBS) hitting three creatures: a human who's within 25 feet and who is flat-footed, a human who's within 25 feet and who isn't flat-footed, and a skeleton who's within 35 feet. The minimum damage of a bomb hit including all bonuses is different for each of them.
If it said "all the bonuses the bomb would get, assuming that the splash recipient were the direct target of the bomb", it would be unambiguous. But a plain "minimum damage" isn't as clear as you're suggesting.
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Seems straight forward. That 1d6 from the rogue doesn't matter because it isn't the bomb damage its sneak attack damage. The favored enemy damage would apply since it says +2 to weapon attack and damage rolls.
You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.
The point being made is that the PBS text (seen above) says +1 on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons. The damage from favored enemies says it grants +2 to weapon attack and damage rolls. Sneak attack says it does more damage, but no where does it say sneak attack damage improves the damage of the weapon. PBS and Favored Enemy specifically says the damage effects the weapon (bombs), therefore since the damage of the weapon is improved upon then as a result the damage of the splash is effected.
Sneak Attack damage is irrelevant in the example above because you can't Sneak Attack with splash weapons in Pathfinder and Bombs are treated as a special kind of splash weapons.
The point being made is that the PBS text (seen above) says +1 on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons. The damage from favored enemies says it grants +2 to weapon attack and damage rolls. Sneak attack says it does more damage, but no where does it say sneak attack damage improves the damage of the weapon.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like it's splitting a hair four ways to say "PBS improves the damage of a weapon but sneak attack does not improve the damage of a weapon". Even if it's true, that's an exceedingly fine line to draw and certainly is worthy of an entry in the FAQ.
EDIT: Maerimydra's right, of course. But the principal remains -- there is no one "minimum damage" to use.
I agree there needs to be an FAQ, but purely RAW it makes sense to me.
It makes sense that some things add to the splash damage and some things don't, and it's up to a Talmudic scholar to figure out which is which based on which things "improve the damage of a weapon" and which don't?
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I agree there needs to be an FAQ, but purely RAW it makes sense to me.It makes sense that some things add to the splash damage and some things don't, and it's up to a Talmudic scholar to figure out which is which based on which things "improve the damage of a weapon" and which don't?
And this takes me back to what I've said a million times on these forums...thats what happens when 6 people are all assigned different parts of books...specificity is lost when you don't have 1 or 2 unified minds to REALLY proofread. Not to mention its REALLY hard to figure out what us gamers are going to do to break all the work they put into the game.
And this takes me back to what I've said a million times on these forums...thats what happens when 6 people are all assigned different parts of books...specificity is lost when you don't have 1 or 2 unified minds to REALLY proofread. Not to mention its REALLY hard to figure out what us gamers are going to do to break all the work they put into the game.
I sympathise when an ambiguous rule turns up; it's really quite difficult to write a foolproof rule without having it sound like stereo instructions.
I have less sympathy when something ambiguous is flagged as a possible FAQ question and then is re-flagged as "no answer needed" with no feedback. :-)
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And this takes me back to what I've said a million times on these forums...thats what happens when 6 people are all assigned different parts of books...specificity is lost when you don't have 1 or 2 unified minds to REALLY proofread. Not to mention its REALLY hard to figure out what us gamers are going to do to break all the work they put into the game.I sympathise when an ambiguous rule turns up; it's really quite difficult to write a foolproof rule without having it sound like stereo instructions.
I have less sympathy when something ambiguous is flagged as a possible FAQ question and then is re-flagged as "no answer needed" with no feedback. :-)
+1