Rappan Athuk


Product Discussion

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Steve Geddes wrote:

Hi Bill (or Rachel maybe?)

Dont go to any significant effort (I can just wait) but is it easy for you to tell how many discrete packages I was sent?

The final email notification I got from you showed six separate tracking numbers - two of them are only "electronic notifications", two of them are stuck in SanFrancisco and two have now arrived in Australia. Of course, Australia being Australia, that's only about halfway to my house. :(

Since I dont yet have my book to read, I'm obsessing over the tracking notices and it is all looking a little odd.

Cheers
Steve

Steve, I'll email you.


Gerald wrote:
Lord Thasmudyan wrote:
Bill Webb wrote:

Thgasmud; likely #103; and my handwriting is terrible:).

Jadeite--not really--USPS is very weird on their tracking--I am an unhappy camper with them right now.

Lol, Bill nah it looks like a 4 but who knows, I chuckled though cause all I could think of was you siting at a desk while the Blonde frog endlessly brought you books to number and sign...Poor Bill thank the frog god its over for now.....
Lol, I didn't notice, but I got the same thing as LT. Mine is number 372/SW, even though I got the Pathfinder version!

I think the /SW should be 500. Did Bill's writing get that bad over the 500 books? LOL, send us a picture. And the visual of me bringing book after book to Bill to sign isn't far off. lol!

Layout and Design, Frog God Games

I've seen Bill's handwriting... /500 could EASILY look like and "s" for the "5" and a round-bottomed "W" for the "00".

Scarab Sages

I was going to say the books that I've seen are all signed x/500, not SW or PF.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Blonde Frog wrote:
Gerald wrote:
Lord Thasmudyan wrote:
Bill Webb wrote:

Thgasmud; likely #103; and my handwriting is terrible:).

Jadeite--not really--USPS is very weird on their tracking--I am an unhappy camper with them right now.

Lol, Bill nah it looks like a 4 but who knows, I chuckled though cause all I could think of was you siting at a desk while the Blonde frog endlessly brought you books to number and sign...Poor Bill thank the frog god its over for now.....
Lol, I didn't notice, but I got the same thing as LT. Mine is number 372/SW, even though I got the Pathfinder version!
I think the /SW should be 500. Did Bill's writing get that bad over the 500 books? LOL, send us a picture. And the visual of me bringing book after book to Bill to sign isn't far off. lol!

Ok, I suppose that could be /500. Is Bill a doctor with that handwriting, lol?

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

Gerald wrote:


Ok, I suppose that could be /500. Is Bill a doctor with that handwriting, lol?

A doctor of evil, maybe

SG

PS And I would certainly guess that's /500, not /SW.

Dark Archive

Blonde Frog wrote:
Gerald wrote:
Lord Thasmudyan wrote:
Bill Webb wrote:

Thgasmud; likely #103; and my handwriting is terrible:).

Jadeite--not really--USPS is very weird on their tracking--I am an unhappy camper with them right now.

Lol, Bill nah it looks like a 4 but who knows, I chuckled though cause all I could think of was you siting at a desk while the Blonde frog endlessly brought you books to number and sign...Poor Bill thank the frog god its over for now.....
Lol, I didn't notice, but I got the same thing as LT. Mine is number 372/SW, even though I got the Pathfinder version!
I think the /SW should be 500. Did Bill's writing get that bad over the 500 books? LOL, send us a picture. And the visual of me bringing book after book to Bill to sign isn't far off. lol!

On it will post something later after work :)

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

So, I have received my Rappan Athuk players guide, and I have to say I'm incredibly disappointed in the lack of caring about the art they put in the book. They're all just horrible pencil drawings that I could have done myself! How could they not have at least gotten an artsy friend to throw together something that looked decent?


If I may make an assumption. I think they are supposed to depict sketches done by adventurers either as they were exploring the areas or after the fact when they were telling others where to go and where to stay away from.

Just my 2 cp. I could be wrong and probably am.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

silverhair2008 wrote:

If I may make an assumption. I think they are supposed to depict sketches done by adventurers either as they were exploring the areas or after the fact when they were telling others where to go and where to stay away from.

Just my 2 cp. I could be wrong and probably am.

Even if that's the case, they could have been done much better. I am not impressed.

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

silverhair2008 wrote:

If I may make an assumption. I think they are supposed to depict sketches done by adventurers either as they were exploring the areas or after the fact when they were telling others where to go and where to stay away from.

Just my 2 cp. I could be wrong and probably am.

You are not wrong. We specifically asked that the sketches be drawn "poorly", and I think they were even redrawn at one point because they were "too good".

They are as they were intended to be. cartmanbeck, If you really feel that they are drawings you could do, then we accomplished what we wanted. these are supposed to be PC drawn maps, not up to our usual cartographic skill.

Im sorry you're disappointed in the PG. I hope the regular maps are more to your liking.

SG

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Skeeter Green wrote:
silverhair2008 wrote:

If I may make an assumption. I think they are supposed to depict sketches done by adventurers either as they were exploring the areas or after the fact when they were telling others where to go and where to stay away from.

Just my 2 cp. I could be wrong and probably am.

You are not wrong. We specifically asked that the sketches be drawn "poorly", and I think they were even redrawn at one point because they were "too good".

They are as they were intended to be. cartmanbeck, If you really feel that they are drawings you could do, then we accomplished what we wanted. these are supposed to be PC drawn maps, not up to our usual cartographic skill.

Im sorry you're disappointed in the PG. I hope the regular maps are more to your liking.

SG

I can appreciate that you were trying to make it feel like they were drawn by the characters, but I guess it's just not what I expect to see in any "professional-grade" gaming book. I hope I didn't come off as an ass-hat, I just expected more. I hope to see some good things in the rest of the PDFs when they are sent out.

Scarab Sages

Just got my box through the post today.
Love the books and goodies. The little frog is currently sat on top of my monitor looking at me!

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
cartmanbeck wrote:
I can appreciate that you were trying to make it feel like they were drawn by the characters, but I guess it's just not what I expect to see in any "professional-grade" gaming book. I hope I didn't come off as an ass-hat, I just expected more. I hope to see some good things in the rest of the PDFs when they are sent out.

Maybe you missed gaming in the late 70's, 80's and 90's but this is what they (players) got - or something similar - if they got anything at all.

I can remember several stand alone modules and a few from Dungeon that had very bad maps available to the players. I remember many an "X" drawn on a vague map (and often inaccurate or deliberately confusing map) with a "here you go".

RA and Slumbering Tsar - pretty much everything from Necromancer and Frog God Games - are both an homage to old school gaming.
I like the maps, I will give the maps to my players and they in turn will dissect the hell out of them hoping to gain an insight or a clue to what amounts to the Tomb of Horrors-style death trap of an adventure. Any clues or info for the players is a good thing. I think it's much better to get a hint about a horrible monster in some remote locale scribbled on scratch paper than seeing it first hand with no prior knowledge and getting wasted by it.

These maps look like what my players would draw back in the day when they had a player tasked to make the map in the party (everything off scale). The jerk DM (was often me) not correcting the small mistakes after giving them several narrations as to what they see/how far away, etc.
Man, that process took forever! It was fun if you had the time though.

Cartmanbeck - you will see good things in the module. This adventure (and adventures like it) makes d20 gaming palatable for me.

Layout and Design, Frog God Games

cartmanbeck wrote:
Skeeter Green wrote:
silverhair2008 wrote:

If I may make an assumption. I think they are supposed to depict sketches done by adventurers either as they were exploring the areas or after the fact when they were telling others where to go and where to stay away from.

Just my 2 cp. I could be wrong and probably am.

You are not wrong. We specifically asked that the sketches be drawn "poorly", and I think they were even redrawn at one point because they were "too good".

They are as they were intended to be. cartmanbeck, If you really feel that they are drawings you could do, then we accomplished what we wanted. these are supposed to be PC drawn maps, not up to our usual cartographic skill.

Im sorry you're disappointed in the PG. I hope the regular maps are more to your liking.

SG

I can appreciate that you were trying to make it feel like they were drawn by the characters, but I guess it's just not what I expect to see in any "professional-grade" gaming book. I hope I didn't come off as an ass-hat, I just expected more. I hope to see some good things in the rest of the PDFs when they are sent out.

Fully rendered maps of all those areas are in the adventure itself. Players don't need highly-rendered maps to get around, that's what adventuring is for.

I personally think that the maps in the Player's Guide might give away too much.


I love the players guide. I'm using it a little differently. I didn't hand it out whole-cloth to the players, I'm using it to cheat at DM'ing a little. As they meet people in Zelkors Ferry I steal descriptions and dialogue from the guide to make the place come alive. So far they have seen one of the badly drawn maps and they thought it was funny. It really drove home the point that they weren't getting any meta-help with this adventure. It was a nice touch.

Shadow Lodge

Lord Thasmudyan wrote:
Bill Webb wrote:

Thgasmud; likely #103; and my handwriting is terrible:).

Jadeite--not really--USPS is very weird on their tracking--I am an unhappy camper with them right now.

Lol, Bill nah it looks like a 4 but who knows, I chuckled though cause all I could think of was you siting at a desk while the Blonde frog endlessly brought you books to number and sign...Poor Bill thank the frog god its over for now.....

Now stack the S&W books in front of him!


cartmanbeck wrote:
Skeeter Green wrote:
silverhair2008 wrote:

If I may make an assumption. I think they are supposed to depict sketches done by adventurers either as they were exploring the areas or after the fact when they were telling others where to go and where to stay away from.

Just my 2 cp. I could be wrong and probably am.

You are not wrong. We specifically asked that the sketches be drawn "poorly", and I think they were even redrawn at one point because they were "too good".

They are as they were intended to be. cartmanbeck, If you really feel that they are drawings you could do, then we accomplished what we wanted. these are supposed to be PC drawn maps, not up to our usual cartographic skill.

Im sorry you're disappointed in the PG. I hope the regular maps are more to your liking.

SG

I can appreciate that you were trying to make it feel like they were drawn by the characters, but I guess it's just not what I expect to see in any "professional-grade" gaming book. I hope I didn't come off as an ass-hat, I just expected more. I hope to see some good things in the rest of the PDFs when they are sent out.

Cartman, you should have all the PDFs by now and if you don't email us at kickstarter@talesofthefroggod.com


Kthulhu wrote:
Lord Thasmudyan wrote:
Bill Webb wrote:

Thgasmud; likely #103; and my handwriting is terrible:).

Jadeite--not really--USPS is very weird on their tracking--I am an unhappy camper with them right now.

Lol, Bill nah it looks like a 4 but who knows, I chuckled though cause all I could think of was you siting at a desk while the Blonde frog endlessly brought you books to number and sign...Poor Bill thank the frog god its over for now.....

Now stack the S&W books in front of him!

Matt has to sign these ones!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Can't wait for mine to post and for them to have a, hopefully, very quick trip across the Pacific to NZ!


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Blonde Frog wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

Hi Bill (or Rachel maybe?)

Dont go to any significant effort (I can just wait) but is it easy for you to tell how many discrete packages I was sent?

The final email notification I got from you showed six separate tracking numbers - two of them are only "electronic notifications", two of them are stuck in SanFrancisco and two have now arrived in Australia. Of course, Australia being Australia, that's only about halfway to my house. :(

Since I dont yet have my book to read, I'm obsessing over the tracking notices and it is all looking a little odd.

Cheers
Steve

Steve, I'll email you.

Thanks, Rachel. Silly I know, but I'll shut up in a week or so... :)


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Grimmy wrote:
I love the players guide. I'm using it a little differently. I didn't hand it out whole-cloth to the players, I'm using it to cheat at DM'ing a little. As they meet people in Zelkors Ferry I steal descriptions and dialogue from the guide to make the place come alive. So far they have seen one of the badly drawn maps and they thought it was funny. It really drove home the point that they weren't getting any meta-help with this adventure. It was a nice touch.

This is pretty much how I am approaching the PG. btw, I dig the maps and think they are appropriate for what they are supposed to be.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Got my box in Friday here in northern BC so hopefully some other canadians start to see some "boxes of evil". It feels like christmas early here what with the snow and now this.

Publisher, Frog God Games

Mach. Books in our cargo van. Kill a , see you later today!

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Grimmy wrote:
I love the players guide. I'm using it a little differently. I didn't hand it out whole-cloth to the players, I'm using it to cheat at DM'ing a little. As they meet people in Zelkors Ferry I steal descriptions and dialogue from the guide to make the place come alive. So far they have seen one of the badly drawn maps and they thought it was funny. It really drove home the point that they weren't getting any meta-help with this adventure. It was a nice touch.

I plan on taking a different approach. I gave it to my players to read, take notes, eat the darn thing, whatever. And on the other side, I'm not going to read it at all. The information is for them provided by NPC's. They use it how they wish.

As far as everything else. A+ across the board. I can't wait to really dive into all the books. (PDFs are hard on my eyes). 7B is just...well...wow.

I do have a couple minor issues. The pages of my print copy of the Pre-Gens sticks out almost a 1/4" below the bottom of the cover. Obviously not a FGG problem, but a printing (stapling) error. No big deal.

Remember when you were a kid and your mom always said "Stop playing with your dice"? Did we listen? Heck no.

OK, maybe that didn't happen. But most gamers play with their dice. Stack em nice and neat, put all the maxes on top, make a dice tower, etc. Saturday, my friend was doing just that and noticed the Orcus on the black dice is facing a different direction then the white and red. Go ahead, get your dice out and check. I'll wait. Again, not FGG.

Note: This is not really a complaint, just my attempt at humor and pointing it out. Though I may have scarred some of those with OCD when it comes to their dice.

Great job Frogs. Looking forward to Razor Coast.


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Zarathos wrote:
I decided to open mine as well; No Golden Ticket for Killer DM#1000. Dragnmoon, Shem, and myself come up with nada. I believe there were two others that got a RA Reloaded. I wonder how many Bill has got left.

Unfortunately I can report that #999 was golden ticketless. On a brighter note, my collection of Necromancer goodies is very nearly complete. :)


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Everything arrived safe and sound. Packaging was, as usual, top notch with not dings or damage at all. I have this peculiar thing of always expecting top quality from FGG and nonetheless being pleasantly surprised by just how good the books are when I finally get them. :)

One query - although it was signed by Bill, my leather PF book didnt get a number (which is no big deal) but I'm curious as to how many were printed. Was it 30 PF and 30 S&W or 30 total? (Or something else?)


Steve Geddes wrote:

Everything arrived safe and sound. Packaging was, as usual, top notch with not dings or damage at all. I have this peculiar thing of always expecting top quality from FGG and nonetheless being pleasantly surprised by just how good the books are when I finally get them. :)

One query - although it was signed by Bill, my leather PF book didnt get a number (which is no big deal) but I'm curious as to how many were printed. Was it 30 PF and 30 S&W or 30 total? (Or something else?)

The leather PF book has a number; it isn't by Bill's signature; it is in faint ink in the corner of the cover page opposite the art. Bill used ink that was brighter when wet so it didn't work out like he hoped.

You know on the golden ticket thing; I am started to wonder if a ticket is stuffed in one of the books. If so, I wonder how many were opened without the owner turning every page. It just seems strange that only one has ever been redeemed. Of course, maybe not; it could be in the front with the signature card and there really are many out there that are still shrink-wrapped.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Bill Webb wrote:
Mach. Books in our cargo van. Kill a , see you later today!

Great, that is the RA stuff I guess (not the other web orders?)

'see me later today'; are you coming to New Zealand?


mach1.9pants wrote:
Bill Webb wrote:
Mach. Books in our cargo van. Kill a , see you later today!

Great, that is the RA stuff I guess (not the other web orders?)

'see me later today'; are you coming to New Zealand?

"kill a" refers to BigKilla who lives not too far from Bill.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Zarathos wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

Everything arrived safe and sound. Packaging was, as usual, top notch with not dings or damage at all. I have this peculiar thing of always expecting top quality from FGG and nonetheless being pleasantly surprised by just how good the books are when I finally get them. :)

One query - although it was signed by Bill, my leather PF book didnt get a number (which is no big deal) but I'm curious as to how many were printed. Was it 30 PF and 30 S&W or 30 total? (Or something else?)

The leather PF book has a number; it isn't by Bill's signature; it is in faint ink in the corner of the cover page opposite the art. Bill used ink that was brighter when wet so it didn't work out like he hoped.

Ah yeah - thanks. :)

Quote:
You know on the golden ticket thing; I am started to wonder if a ticket is stuffed in one of the books. If so, I wonder how many were opened without the owner turning every page. It just seems strange that only one has ever been redeemed. Of course, maybe not; it could be in the front with the signature card and there really are many out there that are still shrink-wrapped.

As a general rule, I wouldnt read those little inserts. I just assume they're marketting and chuck them out unread most of the time. (I only checked this time since I heard there were some 'golden tickets' - I still dont even know what those actually are).

It's hard to extrapolate from one's own experiences to the whole market, but if there are many like me then the unclaimed golden tickets could easily have ended up in the recycling bin with the rest of the packaging.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dark Sasha wrote:
mach1.9pants wrote:
Bill Webb wrote:
Mach. Books in our cargo van. Kill a , see you later today!

Great, that is the RA stuff I guess (not the other web orders?)

'see me later today'; are you coming to New Zealand?

"kill a" refers to BigKilla who lives not too far from Bill.

Thanks, was a tad confused! Though getting my RA Packs hand delivered here is NZ would be pretty cool ;)


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Is there a player's wilderness map available anywhere? Basically the wilderness map from page 13 (or the DM screen) but without the numbers?

Publisher, Frog God Games

Steve. There will be as soon as Rachel finishes the d20 pro stuff


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Cool. Thanks, Bill.

Just got done on my first page through (took the day off in celebration of my loot arriving). It's fantastic. Really liked level 7B too.. Time for the second, more thorough read..


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Steve. I made one in Gimp. If Bill doesn't mind I could share it with you if you need one sooner then the d20pro stuff is available.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Cheers, Grimmy. I won't be running it for several months, so it'll probably be fine. I've favourited your post for reference though, just in case. :)


Bill Webb wrote:
Steve. There will be as soon as Rachel finishes the d20 pro stuff

The wilderness D20Pro files should be ready this week.

Dark Archive

Has any German already received his package?
My tracking shows that mine is held for pick-up. Which I fear means that I have to go to customs and pay taxes.

Publisher, Frog God Games

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Any of you can share players info with anyone you wish, as long as its not sold or globally posted on a pirate site. Fan based adds can almost always be shared

Scarab Sages

In case anyone missed the email Herolab files have been released!


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Robb Lukasik wrote:
In case anyone missed the email Herolab files have been released!

I did see this. My hat is off to FGG as I know that creating the HL .por files was no easy task. For those of us that only run games online now, this is a true lifesaver and I can't begin to say thanks enough to them for offering these as part of the Kickstarter.

Likewise, I'm very much so looking forward to the d20Pro map files over the next few weeks. These are another big chunk of work off of the shoulders of VTT-using (Virtual Table Tops) GMs.

My only other comment would be to see if FGG could talk its writers into using HL to build their encounters as they develop new products, such that these files might be available for new stuff going forward without it being as big a deal.

Of course, now I have to start asking pretty, pretty, pretty please for someone(s) to go back and create these for that honkin big Slumbering Tsar. I'd definitely pay for them as a separate purchase if they were made available as such; I'm not expecting something for nothing and I know from personal experience that, while using HeroLab is a fun and rewarding activity, it is still a very significant effort to stat up a large number of encounters like the mega-sized Slumbering Tsar.

Again, hats off to you, FGG, and thanks for going the extra mile on RA for us VTT-using GMs.


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:
Robb Lukasik wrote:
In case anyone missed the email Herolab files have been released!

I did see this. My hat is off to FGG as I know that creating the HL .por files was no easy task. For those of us that only run games online now, this is a true lifesaver and I can't begin to say thanks enough to them for offering these as part of the Kickstarter.

Likewise, I'm very much so looking forward to the d20Pro map files over the next few weeks. These are another big chunk of work off of the shoulders of VTT-using (Virtual Table Tops) GMs.

My only other comment would be to see if FGG could talk its writers into using HL to build their encounters as they develop new products, such that these files might be available for new stuff going forward without it being as big a deal.

Of course, now I have to start asking pretty, pretty, pretty please for someone(s) to go back and create these for that honkin big Slumbering Tsar. I'd definitely pay for them as a separate purchase if they were made available as such; I'm not expecting something for nothing and I know from personal experience that, while using HeroLab is a fun and rewarding activity, it is still a very significant effort to stat up a large number of encounters like the mega-sized Slumbering Tsar.

Again, hats off to you, FGG, and thanks for going the extra mile on RA for us VTT-using GMs.

What he said =)

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

Elorebaen wrote:
Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:
Robb Lukasik wrote:
In case anyone missed the email Herolab files have been released!

Of course, now I have to start asking pretty, pretty, pretty please for someone(s) to go back and create these for that honkin big Slumbering Tsar. I'd definitely pay for them as a separate purchase if they were made available as such; I'm not expecting something for nothing and I know from personal experience that, while using HeroLab is a fun and rewarding activity, it is still a very significant effort to stat up a large number of encounters like the mega-sized Slumbering Tsar.

Again, hats off to you, FGG, and thanks for going the extra mile on RA for us VTT-using GMs.

What he said =)

heh, dont hold your breath...lol

SG


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Awwwwww Skeeeets......pweeeeze?

Yeah, yeah I know it's asking a lot. Maybe I could spin it as a community project on d20pfsrd.com. I just know that the thought of doing the encounters up for the whole ******* ST book by myself is enough to make my gorge rise, which is a shame because it really is a world-class adventure.


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What's the advantage in having the herolab files?

The Exchange

:-/

Having trouble getting to the Hero Lab files. It keeps asking for the password. Again. And again...


You might try clearing your cookies cache. I had a similar problem.


Steve Geddes wrote:
What's the advantage in having the herolab files?

If you are not using HeroLab now, and do not intend to, you won't get anything out of it.

If you already use HeroLab, however, then this is a very good thing.

The real value, to my thinking, is in the User files, not the portfolios of monsters. Any user of HeroLab would be able to re-create the portfolios with a little time... select a monster, add a template, perhaps some class levels, using the book as a guide. Unless, of course, the class or template are new content. In that case, the user needs to open the HeroLab editor, which has its own learning curve and can be quite sophisticated. Having *those* elements done for you is a great thing for HeroLab users.

I'd encourage you to download and try the free version, from the LoneWolf web site.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I own hero lab, I just don't see the use for it if you're running an adventure where the monsters are already generated.

In case that appears dismissive, my presumption is I'm missing something, not that there's no value. :)

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