Monk Bonus Feats and the Non-Core Rulebooks


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

The APG states "Bonus feats marked with asterisks (*) are found in the feat section of this book. The asterisk is also defined as "This is a combat feat and can be selected as a fighter bonus feat."

The UC and UM books only define the asterisk as combat feats.

Was there a reason why?


"This is a combat feat and can be selected as a fighter bonus feat."

Italicized part is redundant - by definition of a fighter's bonus feat feature, a fighter can select additional feats as long as they are marked as combat feats. Also, more classes allows selecting combat feats as bonus feats now, so specifically pointing out fighter could be misleading.


Fighter Bonus Feats: "These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats, sometimes also called 'fighter bonus feats.'"

ALL Combat Feats are considered as Fighter bonus feats.

Silver Crusade

And so why can monks use the fighter feats from the APG and NOT FROM UC and UM?


Monks have their fixed list of bonus feats depending upon the archetype selected.

You are mistaking asterisk for some game rule - it's not a game rule, its just a conventional way of marking certain things in books, and like in any book its meaning can change from chapter to chapter. In archetype section an asterisk marks the new feats from the current book so you won't start looking for them in another book.

Silver Crusade

Ok, so now that the HOW and the WHAT are taken care of, I'll ask again.

WHY are the books different? Are the UC/UM feats overpowered for a monk build? Did the developers make a mistake? Is there errata involved for this? Has anyone made a house-rule on this (different forum, I know...)?


Brad McDowell wrote:
WHY are the books different?

I don't really see what the difference is, or how it affects monks in any way.

The APG feat table says: "* This is a combat feat and can be selected as a fighter bonus feat."

The Ultimate Magic feat table says: "* This is a combat feat and can be selected as a fighter bonus feat"

The Ultimate Combat feat table doesn't have that text, but it's certainly assumed that any feat with the asterisk is a combat feat and can be selected as a fighter bonus feat.

So that's what combat feats are. The asterisk in the table and the "(Combat)" after the feat name in the description mean it's a combat feat. Combat feats can be selected as a fighter bonus feat (also a Gunslinger bonus feat, or anyone else who can select a combat feat as a bonus feat).

Is there a monk archetype that lets you select a combat feat? If so, then it applies to combat feats in UC, even though it doesn't have the notation at the end of the table.


OHHHH, I get it.

In the APG Monk archetype section, at the top it says "Bonus feats marked with asterisks (*) are found in the feat section of this book."

What this means is any feat you see in that section with an asterisk is found in the feat section of the APG.

Any feat you see in that section without an asterisk is found in the Core Rulebook.

The asterisk in this context just tells you which book to look in to find that feat. It has nothing to do with being a Combat feat.

-edit-
An example:
The Zen Archer Bonus Feats section says "At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Focused Shot*, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mobility, and Parting Shot*."

The feats with an asterisk (Focused Shot, Parting Shot) can be found in the feat section of the APG.

The feats without an asterisk (Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mobility) are not found in the APG, but are in the feat section of the Core Rulebook.


Grick has the right of it. The asterisk means only what it says that it means. Monks only gain a feat as a bonus feat if the blurb in the feat says so, while for fighters any combat feat is a bonus feat.

Silver Crusade

Fantastic. Why?


Brad McDowell wrote:
Fantastic. Why?

Because otherwise you would have no way of knowing which book that feat is listed in, other than memorizing every feat. By including an asterisk, it lets you know whether you need to look in that book, or in the core rulebook.

Silver Crusade

Are the UC/UM feats overpowered for a monk build? Did the developers make a mistake? Is there errata involved for this? Has anyone made a house-rule on this (different forum, I know...)?


Monk's have never gotten the entire gambut of combat feats. They just get a little slice of feats that make sense for a monk to get. Like ranger combat styles. More limited feat selection because they don't have to meet the pre-reqs of the feat.


Brad McDowell wrote:

Are the UC/UM feats overpowered for a monk build? Did the developers make a mistake? Is there errata involved for this? Has anyone made a house-rule on this (different forum, I know...)?

I honestly am not sure what you are talking about. As far as I know, only two feats in APG (Ki Throw and Improved Ki Throw) were added to the list of options for monk bonus feats. If none of the feats in UC or UM are marked that way, it isn't exactly a massive change.

I'm getting the impression you believe ANY Combat feat in APG can be taken as a Monk feat. Is this what you are trying to say? Because that is not the case. Monk feats ignore prerequisites, so are drawn from a very specific list. Allowing them to take absolutely any combat feat this way would be pretty game breaking, as many of those feats use stiff prerequisites to balance out their power.


Brad McDowell wrote:
Are the UC/UM feats overpowered for a monk build?

I don't think so, otherwise monks would be prevented from taking them.

Brad McDowell wrote:
Did the developers make a mistake? Is there errata involved for this?

A mistake in telling you which book the feats are in? No, it's useful information, especially in a printed medium.

Perhaps you're trying to ask why the list of monk bonus feats in the core rulebook doesn't contain feats that didn't exist when the book was created? If so, it's possibly because they want the core rulebook to be self contained. If it listed a bunch of feats from other books, people would need those other books in order to make sense of it. That would be bad design.


What errata would that be?

The monk archetypes in the APG have very specific lists of feats that can be selected as bonus feats (they don't allow all combat feats from the feat chapter). Presumably the selection of feats are as they are because the designer felt those feats suited the concept of the archetype.

Ultimate Magic only has one monk archetype, which uses the ki powers system rather than adding to the monk's list of bonus feats. So that's why the UM feats aren't part of the bonus feat list of any monk archetypes in that book.

Ultimate Combat has several monk archetypes, several of which add to the monk's list of possible bonus feats. And several of those feats are actually from Ultimate Combat. For instance, the "Master of Many Styles" can select from the various "style feats" in UC, and the "Tetori" can choose the Chokehold feat (also from UC). The only difference from the APG is they're not marked by an asterisk in the archetype section.

Silver Crusade

Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
Brad McDowell wrote:

Are the UC/UM feats overpowered for a monk build? Did the developers make a mistake? Is there errata involved for this? Has anyone made a house-rule on this (different forum, I know...)?

I honestly am not sure what you are talking about. As far as I know, only two feats in APG (Ki Throw and Improved Ki Throw) were added to the list of options for monk bonus feats. If none of the feats in UC or UM are marked that way, it isn't exactly a massive change.

I'm getting the impression you believe ANY Combat feat in APG can be taken as a Monk feat. Is this what you are trying to say? Because that is not the case. Monk feats ignore prerequisites, so are drawn from a very specific list. Allowing them to take absolutely any combat feat this way would be pretty game breaking, as many of those feats use stiff prerequisites to balance out their power.

The APG states "Bonus feats marked with asterisks (*) are found in the feat section of this book. The asterisk is also defined as "This is a combat feat and can be selected as a fighter bonus feat."

Page 110, APG. Second paragraph, under the "Monk" heading.

Yes, that's what I'm trying to say.


First, asterisks mean different things in different places. They also mark Alchemist bomb discoveries, Rogue sneak attack modifiers, Inquisitor spells found in the back of the book, and so and so forth. There is no single definition of what an asterisk is used for, as it changes section by section. It would be like saying Footnote 1 in Chapter 1 of a book is also Footnote 1 of Chapter 4, even if it Chapter 4 has its own set of footnotes.

Second, "fighter bonus feat." Monks are not Fighters. They do not get to select Fighter bonus feats. They get to select Monk bonus feats, which are a totally different list. Even if the asterisk meant what you think, Monks would not be allowed to select any combat feat they wanted.


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Brad McDowell wrote:

The APG states "Bonus feats marked with asterisks (*) are found in the feat section of this book. The asterisk is also defined as "This is a combat feat and can be selected as a fighter bonus feat."

Page 110, APG. Second paragraph, under the "Monk" heading.

You are misunderstanding.

The sentence on page 110 ("Bonus feats marked with asterisks (*) are found in the feat section of this book.") refers to the feats marked by asterisks in the Monk section (such as in the various bonus feat lists for several of the archetypes), and only serves to let you know that the marked feats are from the APG and not from the Core Rulebook.

The asterisks in the feat section itself have a different definition. Those asterisks mean "This is a combat feat and can be selected as a fighter bonus feat".

In other words, the asterisks in the Monk archetype section don't mean the same thing as the asterisks in the Feats section.


Asterisks are context sensitive. They mean different things in different places. They do not have the same meaning across all Paizo publications ever.

There is no support anywhere for the monk taking any combat feats at all as bonus feats--except those that are listed specifically under the Bonus Feat section of Monk or the applicable archetype. That's all there is to it.


Brad McDowell wrote:
Are the UC/UM feats overpowered for a monk build? Did the developers make a mistake? Is there errata involved for this? Has anyone made a house-rule on this (different forum, I know...)?

No, they are not overpowered. However, most style feats are in a sequence of two or three. Monk bonus feats do not require any pre-requisites, so you could just pick, for example, Dragon Roar without bothering with Dragon Style. This is perhaps why they are not permitted as monk bonus feats.

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