Delay poison - a death trap?


Rules Questions


Delay poison:
"The subject becomes temporarily immune to poison. Any poison in its system or any poison to which it is exposed during the spell's duration does not affect the subject until the spell's duration has expired. Delay poison does not cure any damage that poison may have already done."

Poison:
"multiple doses of the same poison stack." ...
"Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative."

So Let's say you have delay poison - and are attacked 100 times by som weak DC poison - now the DC will go up and up. No limit there.
You can't use neutralize poison - since it's a caster level check against the now way to high DC. - sure other stronger spells (heal) just cure without a check.

But it would seem Delay poison is dangerous to use... You can't even dismiss it - but have to dispel it.

Is this right or am i missing something? (such as how rare it is that you get poisoned by the SAME kind of poison again and again).


You still have to fail all those fort saves


I'm immune - so I don't get a save until the spell stops. But by them I'll have been affected by many doses - så the DC will go up - right?


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You're essentially correct. Makes for a great assassination tool - lace a person's food with a lot of doses of a mild poison, and lace their drink with a potion of delay poison. They won't even notice they're dead for several hours, and you're safely out of the way...

In all seriousness, I've never seen anyone cast delay poison out of anything but desperation (ie, "We're knee deep in this dungeon and poison's running through my system!"), never as any kind of preventative.

Sczarni

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

You get the save to see if it works when it is applied, even if it doesn't affect you yet I think. Either that,or you get to make 14 saves in order when the spell wears off.

Grand Lodge

Delay poison can also give you a chance to have lesser restoration cast upon yourself. Since it has a three round casting time, you could die from CON damage (for instance) before you get the cure. This is still a bit of a desperation measure, and somewhat circumstantial, but it could still save you sometimes.


You always get the save to see if you are poisoned (which is separate from rolling a save against the poison's effects)-- after that the immunity kicks in -- please note that the poison is still there if you are affected by it.

What I'll typically do is start with delay poison at the start of the day and then if I am exposed to poison take care of it after that fight instead of building it up throughout the day.

This way I'm good for the fight, and I can handle the relatively simple save throws afterward (generally with anti-venom and a heal check).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You are immune. Poison simply doesn't effect you. Technically, simply being immune should act as an instant cure (it does for everything else), but that obviously isn't the intent here. I hate it when game developers start getting loose with game terminology.


Bigtuna wrote:
Is this right or am i missing something? (such as how rare it is that you get poisoned by the SAME kind of poison again and again).

Because of the stacking system on poison paizo introduced in Pathfinder, Delay poison can set up an irresistible save.

Dark Archive

I frequently bite myself as a Serpentblood sorcerer with a delay poison up, to be able to hand out Toxic gifts. ^^


I like the idea that being bit by a snake (say) 100 times is somehow harmless in itself; it's only the poison you have to worry about! :-)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
CptTylorX wrote:
I frequently bite myself as a Serpentblood sorcerer with a delay poison up, to be able to hand out Toxic gifts. ^^

How is this terribly advantageous? The toxic gift spell says the poison uses the spell's DC, and you can only deliver one poison at a time, so I'm failing to see how you could stack the DC or anything like that.


"You draw upon the poison in your body and duplicate its effects in the target, which is affected by the same poison you are, except it uses this spell's DC instead of the poison's normal DC."

Agreed.


Well I use Delay poison on my Synyesist party members - con damage can lower their total HP enough to make their eidolon go away - så better to have that happen at the end of the day...

I guess i could either KEEP casting delay posion until i get a heal spell (and just hope for no dispell).

"You always get the save to see if you are poisoned (which is separate from rolling a save against the poison's effects)-- after that the immunity kicks in -- please note that the poison is still there if you are affected by it."
people agree with this? I'm not sure how to understand the rules :-)

That would make the spell some what better - you don't take any con dam - so you have a better chance of making the initial save - all day long - and should the poison seem to hurt alot - I can just ready a new delay poison, so the infected player can get his con healed up, before we try to resist again.
If only the spell was dissmisable that would allow me more control...

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

That's one way to interpret it.

Quote:
The subject becomes temporarily immune to poison. Any poison in its system or any poison to which it is exposed during the spell's duration does not affect the subject until the spell's duration has expired. Delay poison does not cure any damage that poison may have already done.

Another way is to realize you are immune to poison. You don't make a save while you're immune to poison: they don't effect you.

the poison in your system, it doesn't build up. Nothing effects you until the spell ends.

I really doubt the intention is to create a megadose of poison in the subject.
Let's say you've gotten bitten and are poisoned, you've got a poison in your system. An ally casts Delay Poison. You're now immune to poison, further bites don't effect you. And the only thing that might resume its duration after the delay poison is the poison that was already in your system. But there's no rules that say the poison in your system stays there, that's just supposition based on the name of the spell.

The spell does not say you keep making saves, and delay the effects. It says you're immune, and any poison in your system or that you're exposed to does not effect you while this spell is up, protecting you. If you were a monk or Druid and immune to poison you wouldn't make a save.

The spell also doesn't say the poisons duration is extended. Since delay poison lasts hours, and most poison lasts rounds, the spell will outlast any poisons. With the new wording in the change from 3.5 to pathfinder, delaying the poison is better than curing it, since you become temporarily immune to poisons.

It would be heinous to keep track of every bite or every dose of poison you are exposed to, and then have one roll to resist. But even if you did max out the DC to a million, it doesn't increase the strength of the poision. 1d2 Str is 1d2 Str, so by the OPs logic, the DC would skyrocket, but it would still only effect you for one or two rounds. And after the initial DC bump, the DC would reset back to normal.

I chose to interpret the spell as "you're immune to poison while this spell is in effect, no poison will harm you. Any poison you're exposed to has no effect. Once the spell runs out you are no longer immune and can be poisoned"


Simply being bitten (or what have you) by a poisonous creature does not expose you to the poison, otherwise, simply being bitten would expose you, requiring the necessary number of successful saves to cure the poison, regardless of whether the initial save succeeded.

To become exposed, you must fail the initial save. The initial save isn't just to avoid the effects of the poison, it's to avoid even being exposed in the first place. So, even if you're immune, you still make the save.

Actually, as long as Delay Poison lasts long than the duration of the poison, i.e. most poisons, you don't need to worry about it.


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For all your questions about poison, refer to this.


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Thanks, Martiln. That's a very handy link.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Delay poison simply stops the process in its tracks, but you should still track the order in which new poison is applied to the target. When delay poison ends, all of these initial saves happen in order, then then character must track rounds as outlined above.

So, yep, you end up with a stack of saves to make. I'm assuming that the DCs don't start stacking until you start failing saves. So if you cast delay poison before getting poisoned, then stack 5 arrow hits with the greenblood oil mentioned (DC 13 normally), when delay poison wears off, your first save will be DC 13, and if you fail you take 1 Con and are poisoned for 4 rounds. Your second save will be either DC 13 or DC 15, depending on whether you passed your first save; if you failed both, you'll take another Con and have the poison extended to 6 rounds.

If you fail all 5 (the last one was DC 21 thanks to 4 failures), you'll have taken 5 Con damage and are poisoned at DC 21 for 12 rounds--or until you finally make a save.

In short, delay poison makes you "immune to poison", but it doesn't do anything about the poison already in your bloodstream--it just sits there, biding its time for the spell to run out. Not really a deathtrap, as the effects of the poison will be no worse than they would have been had you not cast delay poison. They're just delayed.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Wow that's way too convoluted for me to bother tracking. I prefer to consider them immune, aka even if they voluntarily fail their save they take no damage from the poisons effect. If that was the intent of the spell they shouldn't have put "the subject becomes temporarily immune to poison" in the description.

They could gave written "the subject temporarily ignores the effects of poison they are exposed to after the casting of this spell. Any poison in its system or any poison to which it is exposed during the spell's duration does not affect the subject until the spells duration has expired. Continue to make saves and keep track of deferred effects. Delay poison does not cure any damage that poison may have already done"

See? Simple. Avoids Immunity which has other rules connotations.
I want something that simplifies play, not convolutes it.


Nah, not that convoluted. Since everything happens at once, just draw a notch whenever he's hit by a poisonous attack. Once delay poison wears off, resolve all the notches. Any time he fails a save, do the damage, raise the DC by 2 for the rest, and add half the standard duration to the total time.

Your method seems more complicated to me, only you have to make the saves at the time of each wound instead of all at once. Also, am I tracking how much damage/ability damage/whatever each dose is doing as we go (including how it affects later saves)? That's more information to keep on the side than a few notches. All of this ends up being a waste of die rolls if they get cured before delay poison wears off.

But the two wordings are more or less functionally equivalent, so if it's easier for you to track the poison as it accrues instead of later, there's no real reason that you couldn't.

+1 for "temporarily ignores", though. They really shouldn't have used the word "immunity" when they clearly didn't mean it.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Also raises the question of how one would neutralize poison the poor sod.
Is it a caster level check of each dose? Or one check for each type of venom?

If it's just one poison over and over again, and neutralize poison is cast before the delay poison ends, is it just a caster level check against the dc of the un-jacked poison or the jacked up DC? Which isnt determined, since we don't know which saves he's made or failed / how strong the poison sitting in his system is.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Seraphimpunk wrote:

Also raises the question of how one would neutralize poison the poor sod.

Is it a caster level check of each dose? Or one check for each type of venom?

If it's just one poison over and over again, and neutralize poison is cast before the delay poison ends, is it just a caster level check against the dc of the un-jacked poison or the jacked up DC? Which isnt determined, since we don't know which saves he's made or failed / how strong the poison sitting in his system is.

Really good question.

As I see it:
- if the poisons haven't jet affected the character (i.e. Delay poison s still in effect) you make 1 CL check and compare it to the unmodified DC of the poisons. Each poison with a DC equal or lower than you CL check result is neutralized;
- if delay poison has ended and some of the poisons have affected the target you make a CL check against the modified, cumulative, DC of the poisons that have affected the character Each kind of poison that has a DC lower or equal to you CL result is neutralized.

Dark Archive

Ravingdork wrote:
CptTylorX wrote:
I frequently bite myself as a Serpentblood sorcerer with a delay poison up, to be able to hand out Toxic gifts. ^^
How is this terribly advantageous? The toxic gift spell says the poison uses the spell's DC, and you can only deliver one poison at a time, so I'm failing to see how you could stack the DC or anything like that.

Can deliver it as a touch versus a melee, can deliver toxic gift through a familiar touch, and if it's cast multiple times, the dc of the poison which does 1d4 con damage for 6 rounds and 2 saves, just becomes worse and worse.


What about this interpretation of delay poison?

Example:
A certain poison normally gives d4 CON damage each round for ten rounds. While the delay spell is in effect, the person takes no damage. After the spell wears off, the victim takes ONLY the damage for the rounds that are still in the future. (S)He takes no damage corresponding to the rounds while the spell was in effect.

Example:
A certain poison normally gives d6 STR damage one time only.
Since the poison wears off before the spell wears off, the victim takes no damage ever from that particular poison.

In the case provided by Bigtuna, while the protection is in effect, those rounds are treated as though the poison did not exist. There is no DC increase.


delay poison wrote:


The subject becomes temporarily immune to poison. Any poison in its system or any poison to which it is exposed during the spell's duration does not affect the subject until the spell's duration has expired. Delay poison does not cure any damage that poison may have already done.
black adder venom wrote:


Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 11
Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds
Effect 1d2 Con damage; Cure 1 save

Bob is bitten by a black adder venom, he fails his save and takes the initial 1d2 con damage.

However, their group was prepared and Amanda casts Slow poison on Bob. they are lvl 3 and bob will be utterly safe from poison for 3 hours.

They were prepared and have an anti-toxin vial, but antitoxin only lasts 1 hr.

They wait 2 and a half hours continuing their adventure in which Bob unluckily gets bit 7 more times and fails the save twice.

bob then drinks the antitoxin vial and gets a +5 on his save vs the poison in time for when delay poison wears off.

The wording stroingly implies anything you recieve while delay poison is up kicks in when it wears off.

my group used this heavily in one of the AP because the poisonw as so aweful.

a higher level group can memorize 1 delay poison and one neutralize poison then just cast neutralize a few hours later when there is unlikely to be more poison.


There's a pretty-much-official ruling on this: https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lc12&page=1?I-Drank-What-An-F AQ-on-Poison#discuss

Someone said wrote:

Delay poison simply stops the process in its tracks, but you should still track the order in which new poison is applied to the target. When delay poison ends, all of these initial saves happen in order, then then character must track rounds as outlined above.

Hope that helps

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I'm running a poison-focused alchemist right now, doing AOE gassing (Poisoner's Censer) and keeping my party safe with Antivenom. As I use nastier and higher-DC poisons, that's not going to cut it, even with a +8 and the gas masks we've gotten. Delay poison looks like a solid bet for dealing with it later.

So, here's how it would pan out: my 5th-level Alchemist puts Delay Poison on the squishy healer with the low fort save, and later on lights up a poisoner's censer in combat, making a 20' radius cloud of inhaled poison that'll last five minutes. It's made from the venom of an Emperor Cobra he bought (3.5 K to get one with a training collar, great investment, milk for 4 doses of free poison a day). Through feats is a base of DC 20, 1d3 Con, 6 rounds, 2 saves to cure.

Most of the party is getting +12 to their saves (+8 for Antivenom, +4 from a custom gas mask item) on top of their normal fort saves, so we only fail on 1, and Antivenom negates the first failure.

Party healer would still fail on a 4 or lower, which is why delay poison is on. Say she spends 12 rounds total in my poison cloud during the fight. After the fight is over, she would would need to save against 12 doses of the poison, but all consecutively within the same round. The DC is 20, but only goes up *after* she fails a save.

So for example, she could succeed saves 1-4 at DC 20, fail save 5 at DC 20 (taking 1d3 Con damage), then saves 6-9 are at a DC 22 and the duration is 9 rounds. She fails save 9, taking 1d3 Con again, and it's DC 24 for 10, 11, and 12; duration is 12 rounds. Say that she fails 12: now the DC is 26, and the duration 15 rounds.

So after that all happens, she's got 15 rounds of poison dosage in her system, DC 26, 1d3 Con damage. If she succeeds any two of these ongoing saves, the poison stops and it's out of her system, resetting the DC to 20 and duration to 6 for any future exposures.

But, the important thing is that the DC and duration don't increase until she actually fails those sequential saves. You have an hour to prep; between Antivenom and Heal and spells like Neutralize Poison or any number of buffs for saving throws, you should be able to bring the Fort save up to a number where she'll only fail on a 1, and even then Antivenom will negate the first failure, so she needs 2 natural 1's before she starts to take damage.


You are responding to a post that's 5 years old.
I doubt the OP Will see your reply.


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Still a pretty cool character concept though.

Grand Lodge

Delay poison seems to be the best way to handle Cloudkill short of poison immunity.


Smitty.The.Smith wrote:
Delay poison seems to be the best way to handle Cloudkill short of poison immunity.

FYI

Extended Delay Poison + Daily Heroes’ Feast = poison immunity for all practical purposes.


At that level, you might as well just use life bubble.


Life bubble, awesome spell that it is, does not protect against injury poisons though.


WELL IT SHOULD!

...Er, I mean, true, but that was about cloudkill.

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