Wrist Sheaths and Not-Daggers


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There's been a bit of a spat on the PFS boards lately regarding scrolls in wrist sheaths, spring loaded and otherwise. Here is the errata'd readout for a wrist sheath:

Adventurer's Armory wrote:
Wrist Sheath: This is a sheath designed to be strapped to your forearm and hidden under a long sleeve. The sheath can hold one forearm-length item such as a dagger, dart, or wand, or up to five arrows or crossbow bolts. As a move action, you can bend your wrist to cause some or all of these items to drop into your hand provoking attacks of opportunity as normal. You have a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to oppose the Perception check of someone observing or frisking you regarding items in the sheath. You can only wear one wrist sheath per arm.

Here is the errata'd readout for the spring loaded wrist sheath:

Adventurer's Armory wrote:
Wrist Sheath, Spring Loaded: This item works like a standard wrist sheath, but releasing an item from it is a swift action. Preparing the sheath for this use requires cranking the sheath’s tiny gears and springs into place (a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity).

Now here is the description of a scroll:

Core Rulebook wrote:
Physical Description: A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8-1/2 inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8-1/2 inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each additional spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than strips of leather. A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8.

Is there any reason, by RAW (because this is the rules forum), that a scroll could not be kept in a wrist sheath, spring loaded or otherwise? It is not a dagger, dart, or wand; however, it is roughly forearm-sized in length, and the text 'such as' provides for items other than a dagger, dart or wand placed in a sheath.

Discuss! :)


I don't see any reason why not.

Shadow Lodge

Makes sense to me. :)


Mergy wrote:


Is there any reason, by RAW (because this is the rules forum), that a scroll could not be kept in a wrist sheath, spring loaded or otherwise? It is not a dagger, dart, or wand; however, it is roughly forearm-sized in length, and the text 'such as' provides for items other than a dagger, dart or wand placed in a sheath.

Discuss! :)

In my opinion, this is a very odd circumstance for wanting a pure RAW answer. Just because a think isn't disallowed by RAW, doesn't mean it is allowed. If you want to keep to strict RAW, you need to provide the text that actually permits it. In this case it is impossible as the text is unclear on which items that used, whatever ruling you make based on it, is per definition a matter of interpretation.

In this case, the argument for making scrolls useable in wrist sheaths, is the "one forarm-length item". However the text "such as" does suggest some similarity with the noted items, besides the length (which can't be used as a defining trait in itself since a dart most likely is shorter). The items mentioned shares characteristics beyond measures, in that they are solid, made from metal or wood.
Additionally if you are intend on referring only to the length-wise description, you'll have a number other items, that should be allowed. A buckler is a great example of an item, that are forearm-length, but by common-sense not applicable with the sheaths.


The only trouble with this idea is that scrolls aren't rigid.

You're likely to damage the scroll with a spring-loaded release.

And if it's in a case to protect it from getting damaged, you lose the swift action benefit of the spring anyway.


So long as your forearm is at least 8 1/2 inches long, I don't see a problem RAW-wise. I'll stop there, since you asked nicely. : D


So... if I am the GM and this question comes up, here is my response:

"Why do you want to put a scroll in a wrist sheath? Are you trying to say that you can have a scroll pop into your hand as a swift action so that you can read it? Well, if that's the point, then I am going to have to disappoint you since for the scroll to work in a wrist sheath, it's going to have to be rolled up pretty tightly so that it will work in the sheath, and once it's in your hand, you'll still have a tightly rolled up scroll in your hand. If you want to read it, you'll have to unroll it.

Still want to put scrolls in the sheath?"

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Adamantine Dragon wrote:

So... if I am the GM and this question comes up, here is my response:

"Why do you want to put a scroll in a wrist sheath? Are you trying to say that you can have a scroll pop into your hand as a swift action so that you can read it? Well, if that's the point, then I am going to have to disappoint you since for the scroll to work in a wrist sheath, it's going to have to be rolled up pretty tightly so that it will work in the sheath, and once it's in your hand, you'll still have a tightly rolled up scroll in your hand. If you want to read it, you'll have to unroll it.

Still want to put scrolls in the sheath?"

Luckily, the unrolling of a scroll is part of the standard action of casting a spell. Otherwise there would be rules for what kind of action unrolling a scroll is.

Speaking to the fragility of a scroll, scrolls are mentioned up there to be reinforced with leather, and they are made of thick paper. You're not going to rip it just from having it pop out of your sleeve.


Mergy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

So... if I am the GM and this question comes up, here is my response:

"Why do you want to put a scroll in a wrist sheath? Are you trying to say that you can have a scroll pop into your hand as a swift action so that you can read it? Well, if that's the point, then I am going to have to disappoint you since for the scroll to work in a wrist sheath, it's going to have to be rolled up pretty tightly so that it will work in the sheath, and once it's in your hand, you'll still have a tightly rolled up scroll in your hand. If you want to read it, you'll have to unroll it.

Still want to put scrolls in the sheath?"

Luckily, the unrolling of a scroll is part of the standard action of casting a spell. Otherwise there would be rules for what kind of action unrolling a scroll is.

Speaking to the fragility of a scroll, scrolls are mentioned up there to be reinforced with leather, and they are made of thick paper. You're not going to rip it just from having it pop out of your sleeve.

It's less about fragility and more about the characteristics of even thick paper. When you apply a quick force like a spring loaded mech in the sheath to a malleable object it deforms and loses most of that force whereas when you apply it to a rigid object since it can't deform it instead accelerates.

And since generally scrolls aren't rigid(depends on the type of scroll we talk about though) I'd be inclined not to allow it particularly since a scroll isn't like any of the objects it expressly allows.

Dark Archive

The only requirement actually seems to be that it is forearm length; to let us know what a forearm length item is, the wrist sheath continues with "such as a dagger, dart,...".


Mergy wrote:
The only requirement actually seems to be that it is forearm length; to let us know what a forearm length item is, the wrist sheath continues with "such as a dagger, dart,...".

True but by that logic you can include anything with any width or height as long as the length is short enough for example a greatsword set in sheath such that it ejects sideways would have less than forearm length but I think everyone could agree that that is really stupid right?

EDIT: PS there isn't really rules text for the length of a lot of the objects in the equipment section, for example how long is a heavy crossbow what about a hand crossbow? Should either of those fit in wrist sheaths?

Sovereign Court

It looks like, by RAW, scrolls with reinforcing rods would qualify as an item capable of being used in a wrist sheath or spring-loaded wrist sheath (provided the user's forearm is long enough, as mentioned). The shape and mass of the object overall isn't very different from a dagger or wand.

If you want to get more technical or logical, there are other considerations. A scroll with reinforcing rods in a wrist-sheath isn't protected from the elements like with a normal scroll case. It very well could tear as it is being ejected (especially if the sheath isn't specifically made for scroll-ejecting). It could also be subject to catching on fire as a flammable, worn item if the user's equipment is subject to a burn attack, or ruined by other environmental hazards (acid traps, befouled water, etc.)

I'd probably ask the player to make low DC Wisdom checks to be aware of these drawbacks, but of course he can still choose to accept the risks. If they're set on paying for spring-loaded wrist sheathes and scrolls, I don't think I'd have a problem with them being able to reach one or two scrolls as a free action. Consider that it is already intended to work with a wand.

Dark Archive

Actually, speaking of the elements, I just discovered a neat spell from Seekers of Secrets:

Book Ward


Alitan wrote:

The only trouble with this idea is that scrolls aren't rigid.

You're likely to damage the scroll with a spring-loaded release.

And if it's in a case to protect it from getting damaged, you lose the swift action benefit of the spring anyway.

Go take a piece of relatively heavy paper and roll it up tightly as you might to place it in a sheath on your wrist. I just tried this and found that it was surprisingly strong, even without any reinforcement on the top and bottom. This is completely aside from the fact that if a scroll gets bent or crumpled you can still read it. The lack of protection from the elements is a legitimate concern, but since the sheath is under the characters sleeve and possibly armor, I would not say that it is a problem unless the character is unexpectedly submerged.

Of course that is completely beside the point that you can do this by RAW. This is just another example of DM's spending effort to look high and low to find a reason to not let players do things. Why would it be such a bad for people to be doing this?


My concern is with the mechanisms (a) securing and (b) sudden-releasing a scroll: it seems entirely plausible to me that damage MIGHT occur, either from being clamped in place or during the spring-action.

If your scrolls are vellum, well, probably not such a problem; vellum is considerably more sturdy (and SHOULD be more expensive -- don't know offhand whether it currently IS or not) than most paper.

But paper? I've worked with the stuff professionally for over a decade. Sometimes, and some KINDS of paper are remarkably sturdy. But even the sturdy sorts can catch an edge or a corner on something and rip all to heck. And a spring strong enough to pop a dagger is surely strong enough to rip paper, if the paper catches when it's being sprung. Even if the paper isn't torn, the writing could easily be marred in a mishap.

You haven't, by the way, provided RAW ruling allowing this. I don't have one saying you CAN'T, but it is by no means RAW to assert that a delivery method DESIGNED FOR RIGID OBJECTS will work as well, or at all, for rolled-up paper/vellum sheets.

It wouldn't be 'bad' to let people do this; just silly and ill-advised.


Scrolls wrote:
Physical Description: A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8-1/2 inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell.

It looks like a scroll can be made of vellum if you so desire by default. Vellum and Parchment also seem to be completely identical to paper according to the rules by virtue of not being in the hardness table as a separate entry Vellum by itself is not in the goods and services table, but parchment is actually half the price of paper, which strikes me too as a little bit weird.

Wrist Sheath wrote:
The sheath can hold one forearm-length item such as a dagger, dart, or wand, or up to five arrows or crossbow bolts. Alternatively, you may store up to 1 pound of ammunition in a wrist sheath.

I read this description as a non-exhaustive list of what can be placed in a wrist sheath, since it obviously is open ended WRT forearm-length objects. Now given that the RAW definition of a scroll is that it is 8.5x11 and that a rolled up sheet of 8.5x11 paper is about the length of my forearm (you can't tell over the internet but I am physically verifying this fact right now), I think that it is pretty obvious that by RAW you can use a scroll in a wrist sheath.

Of course I personally look for the absence of a rule saying that you can't do something rather than needing an explanation of why you can. By 'not bad' I mean that I think that this is completely reasonable from a simulationsit viewpoint and furthermore, it is not broken from a gamist viewpoint. I'm not really sure where you are coming up with 'silly and ill-advised' from.


Silly, ill-advised, both due to the nature of scrolls and spring-sheaths.

If you've got a rigid core (like a wand) around which to wrap the scroll, MAYBE it's plausible. But:

... how do you secure the scroll? Tape doesn't exist, glue is VERY problematic, string also for different reasons. Anything that keeps the scroll tightly-wound enough makes it EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT to then unroll and read the scroll once it's in-hand.

And if you HAVEN'T secured it, you get torn/marred scrolls. Maybe not enough to make them unreadable. MAYBE not enough to cause magical mishaps when read. But now you suddenly have a new layer of house-rule necessities, and YET ANOTHER die-roll of some kind...

And a well-secured scroll means you have to take a move action to get it unrolled, likely provoking an AaO... which the wrist-sheath idea is supposed to avoid. But it just doesn't work well in practice.

As for the materials issue... the biggest advantage of early papers over parchment and vellum is that they were cheaper to produce, and quicker in mass. But, generally speaking, they were pretty lousy for actually writing on. Vellum -- which is really the highest grade of parchment -- would, imo, be the best surface for magic scrolls. And it OUGHT to be more expensive than most paper.

I'll agree that the idea is 'not bad' from a gameist viewpoint, but I really do think it fails from a simulationist one.


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Mergy wrote:


Luckily, the unrolling of a scroll is part of the standard action of casting a spell. Otherwise there would be rules for what kind of action unrolling a scroll is.

Citation please. There is no RAW I can find indicating that "unrolling of a scroll is part of the standard action of casting a spell." I find it far more plausible that "unrolling a scroll is part of the move action of retrieving a scroll".

Please indicate where in the RAW you see that unrolling a scroll is part of reading it.


Alitan wrote:

... how do you secure the scroll? Tape doesn't exist, glue is VERY problematic, string also for different reasons. Anything that keeps the scroll tightly-wound enough makes it EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT to then unroll and read the scroll once it's in-hand.

And if you HAVEN'T secured it, you get torn/marred scrolls. Maybe not enough to make them unreadable. MAYBE not enough to cause magical mishaps when read. But now you suddenly have a new layer of house-rule necessities, and YET ANOTHER die-roll of some kind...

The scroll is secured by the walls of the wrist sheath. You roll it up as tight as it will go and put in in the sheath, then it will unroll just a little bit and remain in the tube of the wrist sheath. The sides of the sheath are smooth enough that they will not damage the scroll as it comes out pressed against them by the tension of it being rolled up. If you want to get really technical, I bet that the end of the scroll protrudes from the end of the sheath by like 1/16 inch so that it doesn't get snagged when it comes shooting out. I think that is a ridiculous level of detail to have argue to justify this though.

Alitan wrote:
And a well-secured scroll means you have to take a move action to get it unrolled, likely provoking an AaO... which the wrist-sheath idea is supposed to avoid. But it just doesn't work well in practice.

As someone pointed out in a previous post, the unrolling of a scroll is always part of the standard action to use it no matter how it gets into your hand.

Alitan wrote:
I'll agree that the idea is 'not bad' from a gameist viewpoint, but I really do think it fails from a simulationist one.

Well obviously YMMV, but when I play it out in my head, it works from a stimulationist point of view too. I just see trying to find reasons to keep players from doing creative and completely reasonable things like this to be kind of petty and controlling DMing. Just let players think outside the box.

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Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Mergy wrote:


Luckily, the unrolling of a scroll is part of the standard action of casting a spell. Otherwise there would be rules for what kind of action unrolling a scroll is.

Citation please. There is no RAW I can find indicating that "unrolling of a scroll is part of the standard action of casting a spell." I find it far more plausible that "unrolling a scroll is part of the move action of retrieving a scroll".

Please indicate where in the RAW you see that unrolling a scroll is part of reading it.

It's pretty simple, actually. Scrolls are stored rolled up, right? In that case, when one is retrieved by a move action, there should be some rule somewhere as to what kind of action unrolling a scroll is; there is no action mentioned to do so anywhere in the scroll section.

Are you saying that to cast a spell from a scroll, one must take a move action to retrieve it, a move action to break the wax seal, a move action to unroll the paper, and finally, a standard action to finish casting the spell?


Saint Caleth wrote:


As someone pointed out in a previous post, the unrolling of a scroll is always part of the standard action to use it no matter how it gets into your hand.

And as someone else pointed out, unless you or Mergy can cite the RAW this is simply wishful thinking.

So cite the rule. Or accept that the swift action of the wrist-sheath only delivers a rolled up scroll.

You'll have to figure out some other exploit to get it unrolled enough to read. Or else have a house rule that unrolling a scroll is part of the action of reading it.


It's not completely reasonable. I'll grant you 'creative.'

This is not a thing I'd try to use as a player, for all the reasons I've exhibited over the course of this debate.

YMMV. If your GM doesn't mind, go have fun.

But 'I'm thinking outside the box' is NOT justification for 'I should get my way on this because I want it.'


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

And as someone else pointed out, unless you or Mergy can cite the RAW this is simply wishful thinking.

So cite the rule. Or accept that the swift action of the wrist-sheath only delivers a rolled up scroll.

You'll have to figure out some other exploit to get it unrolled enough to read. Or else have a house rule that unrolling a scroll is part of the action of reading it.

So, Adamantine Dragon, as Mergy asks, does it take another standard/move action to unroll a retrieved scroll? That is definitely not RAW either, that is you adding an extraneous action to the process as a house rule. Under the basic rules for using scrolls I don't see "unroll and otherwise prepare the scroll" under steps and conditions for activating a scroll.

Also, read my description of how a scroll in a wrist sheath works, if you want an "exploit" to get it unrolled, by the physics of what is happening with the scroll held rolled up by the sheath itself, it would unroll as it came out. Again, though, this is a ridiculous level of justification to have to go though.

Alitan wrote:

It's not completely reasonable. I'll grant you 'creative.'

This is not a thing I'd try to use as a player, for all the reasons I've exhibited over the course of this debate.

YMMV. If your GM doesn't mind, go have fun.

But 'I'm thinking outside the box' is NOT justification for 'I should get my way on this because I want it.'

I see we have to agree to disagree about this being reasonable. I am not using "thinking outside the box" as a justification. I have given arguments both from a rules perspective and the perspective of how the device would actually work.

I have never come across a DM who said a player could not do this, and I ahve had plenty of nitpicky DMs, especially in PFS. I do understand that I would have to ask about this if I sat down at the table of an unfamiliar DM. In this particular case it probably would not influence which character I was willing to use at that particular table though. My cleric does have a wrist sheath in which he is willing to carry a Scroll of Breath of Life to use on a party member though.

Dark Archive

I will also say I'm pretty tired of being referred to as exploiting the game. Adamantine Dragon, if you cannot argue in a polite fashion, please take a few minutes before posting again. I don't like being called a cheater or munchkin when I post a thread on the rules forum.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Could you shoot a forearm-length piece of yarn out of a spring-loaded wrist sheath?


Why would someone that used scrolls regularly during his studies need a move action to open them? I need some citations for it takes a move action to open a scroll. It makes sense to me that a wizard would be able to open a scroll as a swift action. This is because they've opened hundreds of scrolls in their life time.

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Robespierre wrote:
Why would someone that used scrolls regularly during his studies need a move action to open them? I need some citations for it takes a move action to open a scroll. It makes sense to me that a wizard would be able to open a scroll as a swift action. This is because they've opened hundreds of scrolls in their life time.

It's a free action, although this is just my opinion. If we look at the rules for using a scroll, they are by default rolled up. If you have a scroll in your hand (rolled up, as is the case for scrolls when not in use), it is a standard action to cast a spell with it.

So, either the scroll does not even require being unrolled to cast the spell, or it is a free action as part of the casting.


Mergy wrote:
I will also say I'm pretty tired of being referred to as exploiting the game. Adamantine Dragon, if you cannot argue in a polite fashion, please take a few minutes before posting again. I don't like being called a cheater or munchkin when I post a thread on the rules forum.

Reading the rules in a deliberately generous fashion with no justification other than "that's the way I want it to work" is pretty much the definition of exploitation Mergy. Stop doing it and I'll stop calling you out on it.

Now, what is getting lost here is that the goal here is to be able to cast scrolls and still have a move and standard action. The "wrist sheath" is just the tool that is being utilized to grant this ability.

Is there another way to do this that doesn't stretch the concept of the wrist sheath?

Can you construct a scroll-delivery device that would hold, say, four scrolls?

I think you could. Would it cost the same as a wrist sheath? Probably not. But it wouldn't be greatly more expensive.

But custom items are probably not allowed in PFS play.

So I guess this boils down to a ruling by the PFS, and imho that ruling has to be on whether unrolling a scroll is part of the move action of retrieving it, or the standard action of reading it.

It seems far more plausible that it's part of the move action to me. Especially when you read the description of reading a scroll and it is clear from the very first sentence that the action starts with the scroll open and viewable.

Is there a PFS ruling on this?


Mergy wrote:
Robespierre wrote:
Why would someone that used scrolls regularly during his studies need a move action to open them? I need some citations for it takes a move action to open a scroll. It makes sense to me that a wizard would be able to open a scroll as a swift action. This is because they've opened hundreds of scrolls in their life time.

It's a free action, although this is just my opinion. If we look at the rules for using a scroll, they are by default rolled up. If you have a scroll in your hand (rolled up, as is the case for scrolls when not in use), it is a standard action to cast a spell with it.

So, either the scroll does not even require being unrolled to cast the spell, or it is a free action as part of the casting.

Go read the "reading a scroll" rules Mergy. It is very clear from the first sentence that the reading is assuming the scroll is open. Here are the very first paragraphs:

activating a scroll wrote:

To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it. This involves several steps and conditions.

Decipher the Writing: The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). Deciphering a scroll is a full-round action.

If you can't recognize that this entire passage starts with the assumption that the scroll is open in front of you... well... dunno what to say.

Dark Archive

There is not, because it comes down to a rules question.

It doesn't seem plausible to me that it's part of the action of retrieving the scroll, because then there would be rules like "You must have two free hands to retrieve a scroll".

As Saint Caleth has said, however, simply in the action of being thrust from the wrist sheath, the scroll would begin to unroll.

Since a character can cast a scroll with only one hand free, and since there is no defined action to unrolling a scroll, I say there is no action to unroll it. It's fluff, the stuff that you watch in your head as you describe your actions.

EDIT: Deciphering a scroll happens before you cast it, often days before. Activating the scroll requires that the character be able to read it; however, there is no action given or required to unroll it.


@ St.C: As it stands, the spring-sheath is, as I've said, designed for rigid items, and ones about the weight of a dagger.

Scrolls, not being rigid and MUCH lighter than a dagger, present much more resistance to the force of the spring, resulting in torn, crumpled, or simply mis-delivered to the hand when triggered, scrolls.

If you actually designed a lighter-springed sheath, I'd be more likely to buy the concept, but that's not possible in a PFSOP setting, due to their RIDICULOUS crafting rules, so you're kinda hosed on that score -- not your fault, just the nature of the beast.

And you HAVE BEEN using 'thinking outside the box' as a justification, or at least a raison d'etre for allowing this to work.

The limitations of PFSOP make it difficult/impossible to finesse the problems with what isn't a bad idea... but they're problems that would HAVE to be fixed to make the basic idea workable. In short, you can't stuff a scroll into a mechanism designed to deliver a dagger and expect it to work RELIABLY to deliver scrolls.


Mergy,

I'm pretty sure that the move action to retrieve the stored scroll is when/how the scroll gets unrolled for use in the standard order of things: this isn't specified due to there not being spring-sheaths for scrolls in the standard game...


Well, it comes down to that table variation on lots of little corner cases where I don't think there is a problem is the evil of organized play. Thats why I would have ask how a DM thinks that this works.

At my tables scrolls are a valid item to be delivered by a wrist sheath, even in PFS.

Alitan wrote:
Scrolls, not being rigid and MUCH lighter than a dagger, present much more resistance to the force of the spring, resulting in torn, crumpled, or simply mis-delivered to the hand when triggered, scrolls.

If you want to keep mucking about in the super technical physics of how it actually works, the description of a wrist sheath says that you have to set the "spring loading" manually when loading the sheath. I would argue if I needed to that you can set the tension and adjust for the weight of the item at that point. Obviously we are not going to change each other's minds on this though.

Dark Archive

Alitan wrote:

Mergy,

I'm pretty sure that the move action to retrieve the stored scroll is when/how the scroll gets unrolled for use in the standard order of things: this isn't specified due to there not being spring-sheaths for scrolls in the standard game...

Quote:
To protect it from wrinkling or tearing, a scroll is rolled up from both ends to form a double cylinder. (This also helps the user unroll the scroll quickly.)

Seems pretty free-action-as-part-of-the-casting to me.


Mergy wrote:
Alitan wrote:

Mergy,

I'm pretty sure that the move action to retrieve the stored scroll is when/how the scroll gets unrolled for use in the standard order of things: this isn't specified due to there not being spring-sheaths for scrolls in the standard game...

Quote:
To protect it from wrinkling or tearing, a scroll is rolled up from both ends to form a double cylinder. (This also helps the user unroll the scroll quickly.)
Seems pretty free-action-as-part-of-the-casting to me.

...unless you have started the round with the scroll in-hand, you have to retrieve it from storage. Scroll case, backpack, whatever -- taking a move action. During which, you unroll the scroll.

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And if a character starts with the scroll in hand, it is still a move action to unroll it? What use is the double cylinder form that helps the user unroll it quickly?


rolled up newspaper can be as stiff as a stick, so it should work.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
rolled up newspaper can be as stiff as a stick, so it should work.

Rolled up newspaper, coincidentally, will also unroll once it is pushed out of whatever is keeping it rolled up. :)


I don't see any reason by RAW why you couldn't put a scroll into a spring-loaded wrist sheath. I can see plenty of valid RAI interpretations and house-ruled decisions as to why scrolls are not usable with the sheath (which is summed up by the detractors of this tactic in this and other threads). If I played any PFS character who used scrolls I'd probably try to use the trick, and it's personally allowable in my home games.

Here's my reasoning:

Physical Composition: A scroll is reinforced with leather at the top and bottom to maintain form, and is rolled from both sides into a tightly-wound double tube. This imo would have plenty of rigidity for a spring-loaded wrist sheath (which applies just enough force to pop something into your hand, not rocket it across the room like a mini-ballista).

Balance: I see absolutely no big deal about a scroll user spending a little extra money to have two of her scrolls able to be retrieved as a swift action, while all the rest are in her scroll cases/adventurer's sash and retrievable with a move action. Seriously, NBD...


I've got no issue whatsoever with a scroll being used in a wrist sheath. The only "issue" I have with this entire thread is the blatant, bald-fased assertion that unrolling a scroll is part of reading the scroll.

I find absolutely ZERO support for that position in the RAW.

Now, if someone wants to house rule that unrolling a scroll is a free action, that's fine. If PFS wants to rule that way, that's fine too. If the developers want to errata that to be a free action, that's perfect.

I just get a little tired of reading people ASSERTING their own generous interpretation of a rule that is unclear as being the rule. It's not the rule. The rule isn't clear.

I also have no problem in non-PFS games with having a clever tinker come up with a device that delivers an unrolled scroll to the bearer as a swift action. I can think of some ways that might work myself. But it would have to be constructed and/or purchased.

By the way, when you are trying to use an item for a purpose other than it's stated purpose, that is by definition an exploit. That's what the word means. The wrist-sheath is designed to deliver weapons or wands. Using it to deliver a scroll is an exploit. It's not even a dirty word. It's just what it is.

Dark Archive

I agree with you Adamantine Dragon: the rule is not clear. Let's work on this.

I would prefer that we use this thread as a means of figuring out exactly how scrolls work.

The developers did not give us a method in the rules to unroll a scroll; they therefore either thought it a non-issue, thought it was obvious, or desired us to make house rules.

I would prefer to not think it the latter, so is it a non-issue to unroll a scroll, or is it obviously a move action to do so?

Shadow Lodge

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I've got no issue whatsoever with a scroll being used in a wrist sheath. The only "issue" I have with this entire thread is the blatant, bald-fased assertion that unrolling a scroll is part of reading the scroll.

I find absolutely ZERO support for that position in the RAW.

Now, if someone wants to house rule that unrolling a scroll is a free action, that's fine. If PFS wants to rule that way, that's fine too. If the developers want to errata that to be a free action, that's perfect.

I just get a little tired of reading people ASSERTING their own generous interpretation of a rule that is unclear as being the rule. It's not the rule. The rule isn't clear.

I also have no problem in non-PFS games with having a clever tinker come up with a device that delivers an unrolled scroll to the bearer as a swift action. I can think of some ways that might work myself. But it would have to be constructed and/or purchased.

By the way, when you are trying to use an item for a purpose other than it's stated purpose, that is by definition an exploit. That's what the word means. The wrist-sheath is designed to deliver weapons or wands. Using it to deliver a scroll is an exploit. It's not even a dirty word. It's just what it is.

It looks to me like a wrist sheath is meant to provide easy access to certain items. Using it to access a scroll may not have been what the developers originally pictured, but that doesn't mean that it's an exploit.

Dark Archive

TeaMinion wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
By the way, when you are trying to use an item for a purpose other than it's stated purpose, that is by definition an exploit. That's what the word means. The wrist-sheath is designed to deliver weapons or wands. Using it to deliver a scroll is an exploit. It's not even a dirty word. It's just what it is.
It looks to me like a wrist sheath is meant to provide easy access to certain items. Using it to access a scroll may not have been what the developers originally pictured, but that doesn't mean that it's an exploit.

The spring loaded wrist sheath's original purpose is to quickly produce a forearm-sized concealed item. Producing a scroll from a wrist sheath is using the item as intended.


Mergy wrote:

I agree with you Adamantine Dragon: the rule is not clear. Let's work on this.

I would prefer that we use this thread as a means of figuring out exactly how scrolls work.

The developers did not give us a method in the rules to unroll a scroll; they therefore either thought it a non-issue, thought it was obvious, or desired us to make house rules.

I would prefer to not think it the latter, so is it a non-issue to unroll a scroll, or is it obviously a move action to do so?

My personal opinion Mergy is that on its own unrolling a scroll is sufficiently difficult that it would not be a free action. However it is simple enough that it is clearly much easier than a "move action". So it is somewhere between "free" and "move."

Luckily we actually have an action that fits the bill here. It's a "swift action" that can be performed as a free action as part of (a)retrieving a scroll or (b) activating a scroll. I don't think there is an action of "reading a scroll" I think the action is "activating a scroll". This is significant because it is clear from other rules that activating a scroll is not simply reading it. It involved somatic and verbal components as well as providing any material object that is required, or making an attack action in the case of a spell attack.

That's why I am not really on board with the "it's part of activating the scroll." There's already quite a bit going on there.

But... I would be fine if the developers wanted to rule that it is a free action. Or if someone wanted to house rule it that way. I think that's a bit inconsistent with other free action descriptions, but heck, there's a ton of inconsistencies already.

Dark Archive

Now we need another thread just for the question: "What kind of action is it to unroll a scroll before casting the spell?"


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Mergy wrote:
TeaMinion wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
By the way, when you are trying to use an item for a purpose other than it's stated purpose, that is by definition an exploit. That's what the word means. The wrist-sheath is designed to deliver weapons or wands. Using it to deliver a scroll is an exploit. It's not even a dirty word. It's just what it is.
It looks to me like a wrist sheath is meant to provide easy access to certain items. Using it to access a scroll may not have been what the developers originally pictured, but that doesn't mean that it's an exploit.
The spring loaded wrist sheath's original purpose is to quickly produce a forearm-sized concealed item. Producing a scroll from a wrist sheath is using the item as intended.

Mergy, why do you make me do this?

wrist-sheath rules wrote:
This is a sheath designed to be strapped to your forearm and hidden under a long sleeve. The sheath can hold one forearm-length item such as a dagger, dart, or wand, or up to five arrows or crossbow bolts. Alternatively, you may store up to 1 pound of ammunition in a wrist sheath. As a move action, you can bend your wrist to cause some or all of these items to drop into your hand (provoking attacks of opportunity as normal). You have a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to oppose the Perception check of someone observing or frisking you regarding items in the sheath. You can only wear one wrist sheath per arm.

The description does not say "quickly produce a forearm-sized concealed item." It says "forearm-length" item "such as a dagger, dart, or wand." The "such as" is an important part of the sentence. It refines and clarifies the concept. For example, this would seem to exclude the idea that the sheath would produce a "forearm sized" length of rope as one example.

Whether a rolled up scroll can be described as being "such as a dagger, dart or wand" is highly debatable.... as this thread shows.

Mergy, this is why you and I get crosswise sometimes. You have this habit of blatantly asserting as fact things that are purely your own interpretation of a rule or description.

I can read. I read pretty damn well actually. I have been a professional editor and writer.

So it irks me when people do this.

Yeah, it's a weakness.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

What if you wrap a scroll around a wand, and then put it in the wrist sheath?

Dark Archive

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Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Are you asserting that a rolled-up scroll is not roughly the length of a forearm?

Grand Lodge

I think a very important point is being glossed over here. Going by the description of a scroll in the book, the reinforcing on the ends would make it rigid enough (IMO) for the spring sheath to eject it. However...

The scroll WILL unroll inside the spring sheath slightly. You can test this with a simple experiment. Roll up a piece of paper, put it inside a paper towel tube, and see what happens. I think that even if you could get this to work, there would be a chance that the scroll would be damaged during ejection and/or would jam and not eject all the way (or at all).

Now, the simplest way I can think of to solve this problem would be to secure the scroll once it is rolled, as already mentioned. The first thing that comes to mind would be a rubber band. I don't think rubber bands exist in the Pathfinder world. Also, I don't think it would be at all unreasonable to say that removing the string or whatever you tied the scroll up with would add to the time required to access the scroll, especially in combat.

Ultimately this is in the realm of a house rule adjudication by the DM. It's definitely not in the RAW, and I'd argue it's not in the RAI either. The only way to really know if it would even work is to get a real scroll and a real spring sheath and experiment. Personally, I wouldn't/won't allow it. To me it smells of exploitation and is not in the RAI. I would compliment the character on his creativity, but still say no. :)


Mergy wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Are you asserting that a rolled-up scroll is not roughly the length of a forearm?

No Mergy, I am pointing out that you are deliberately ignoring the clarifying and restricting part of the sentence so that you can argue, disingenuously, in my opinion, that a scroll fits the description as an "intended" item to be used in a sheath.

But I'm done with this. This is why you and I don't always get along Mergy. You assert your opinion as fact, selectively choose things to "support" your position while ignoring things that don't, and instead of addressing the issue, you re-assert the same assertion that has been challenged.

I'm done with this.

Just between you and me Mergy, I concur with Lex on this. Yes a rolled up scroll would be rigid enough to work, but it would likely unroll and potentially jam the mechanism or damage the scroll upon being triggered unless the scroll was secured from unrolling while in the sheath.

You could possibly secure it with a bit of hot wax I think, which would be easy to break and unroll though.

I don't mind scrolls being used in the sheaths. I mind asserting things as fact that are not fact, and asserting things as being resolved that are still highly debatable.

Good luck.

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