Does shapechanging (Su) detect as magic?


Rules Questions


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Since supernatural abilities are magical, I wonder if a transformed doppelganger or lycantrophy (or basically any shapeshifting monster) has a magical (transmutation) aura, while in it's alternate form?


Montis wrote:
Since supernatural abilities are magical, I wonder if a transformed doppelganger or lycantrophy (or basically any shapeshifting monster) has a magical (transmutation) aura, while in it's alternate form?

By RAW probably, though I'm not sure. Frankly however, it doesnt make a lot of sense for a doppleganger to radiate magic while trying to blend into human society. If that were the case anyone with detect magic can find out who radiates transmuatation. At the very least that would significantly narrow the search if someone was looking for a doppleganger. Sure, some people will have a constant transmutation effect and not be a doppleganger via magic items, but those will be few and far between (adventurers not withstanding).

"I suspect a doppleganger is in the palace."

"Lets check all the servants via detect magic."

"Hey that cleaning lady is radiating transmutation. Grab it."


And then why in the fluff for lycanthropy would it list all those "tell-tale signs" like eyebrows growing together or hairy hands (just realized the name of my next NPC) from old folklore?

No, I'd say for lycanthropy anyway it shouldn't show up on magical radar.


Count me as a vote for "even if it should, it doesn't" simply because it would foil too many things. :\

-S


Quote:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.

Su abilities are magical, so should show up with Detect Magic.


Jeraa wrote:
Quote:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.
Su abilities are magical, so should show up with Detect Magic.

Not necessarily disagreeing with your interpretation, just saying another spin on it could be had.

As a DM I still wouldn't let it detect- even if it specificailly said otherwise. To do so, makes nearly any shape changer just flat out impossible to run against even a marginally intelligent party.

-S


I'm sure the party has just as many transmutation effects up as the shapeshifter does.


It's also my understanding that shapchanging does NOT change your base creature type. So even if you are a druid and you shapeshift into a rat you still counts as a human as base creature type.

That's also a very easy way to find out if something/one has been polymorphed or shapeshifted if you are just trying to figure out ways to detect shapechanging with magic.


Some spells mean to trick the eyes I don't believe are meant to show up to detection spells unless specifically stated in the detection spell's description; EX: Detect Magic vs. Invisibility doesn't make sense, but See Invisibility vs. Invisibility works.

This isn't exactly the same but might fall under a similar category, although I doubt it.

That said, the spell Magic Aura can mask the magical auras given off by objects. A past DM of mine allowed me to make a belt enchanted with this spell in such a way that it would mask all magical auras emanating from me or my equipment. It was expensive but worth it.


I'd say it was only detectable at the exact moment it was being used by the creature. So during the transformation process only would an aura of magic be visible to someone if they are using detect magic.

An example:

A doppleganger is changing into the prince to get close to the king to assassinate him.

Around the corner a PC just so happens to be detecting magic in his direction. The PC will detect the magic while the change is taking place and be able to tell where it's coming from, but after the change is complete the magical aura is gone and he'd be unable to pick it up again and it fades quickly w/o lingering on the doppleganger.

Reason I'd do this is by looking at the actual detect magic - how long does it take for the transformation to take place and how long was the caster of detect magic studying the area? I believe that the Su transformation is a one-round action, but correct me if I'm wrong...

The Detect Magic Spell RAW:
You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras
2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura eminates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).

Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.

Aura Strength: An aura's power depends on a spell's functioning spell level or an item's caster level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.

Lingering Aura: A magical aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a magic item). If detect magic is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power:

Grand Lodge

Montis wrote:
Since supernatural abilities are magical, I wonder if a transformed doppelganger or lycantrophy (or basically any shapeshifting monster) has a magical (transmutation) aura, while in it's alternate form?

Supernatural abilities are magical. However, they are neither spells nor magic items, so the rules for detect magic do not define any aura to be seen. If using a better than 0-level detection ability, you could check the wording for that ability.


According to the Bestiary, Change Shape works like a polymorph spell (but not exactly like it). Assuming it detects as a polymorph spell as well, then Change Shape would show up as a transmutation aura, the strength depending on what spell the Change Shape functions as.

Lyncanthrops change shape works like a Polymorph spell (5th level), so a moderate transmutation. Doppelgangers work as Alter Self, so a Faint transmutation aura. All creatures with the change shape ability have a spell listed that it works as, so you can easily determine the strength of the aura.

Scarab Sages

Shapechanging should detect as magical. Since Detect Magic is not limited to just detecting spells, examining the aura of a shapechanged creature will reveal the proper information depending on how much time the caster spends doing it. After 3 rounds, a Knowledge (arcana) check is called for to determine the school of magic, which likely reveals transmutation if successful. However, unless the shapechanger has a reason to have no magic at all, further investigation/spellcasting will be needed. Keep in mind that shapechanging assassins will use Nondetection or other spells/magic items to hinder magical examiniation.

Liberty's Edge

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Detect magic detect only 2 things:
- Functioning spells
- Magic items

Plus lingering auras of the same.

Look the table at the end of the spell description. It show all that it can detect and there aren't supernatural effects there.

Even the much more powerful Arcane sight spell don't give you that kind of information:
"If you concentrate on a specific creature within 120 feet of you as a standard action, you can determine whether it has any spellcasting or spell-like abilities, whether these are arcane or divine (spell-like abilities register as arcane), and the strength of the most powerful spell or spell-like ability the creature currently has available for use."


just to add my two cents ...

a lycanthrope in humanoid form would not detect as magic due to being a shapeshifter, because they would not currently be using any polymorph magic ...

a lycanthrope in hybrid form would be obviously a lycanthrope ...

a lycanthrope in animal form would be the only time detect magic might be useful, though they'd most likely be attacking you or avoiding you when in that form, so detecting the presence or absence of magic might not be that helpful.

...but... the detect magic spell does also say that outsiders and elementals are not magical in and of themselves ... yet they pretty much always have supernatural abilities of one kind or another, and probably stronger than an average shapeshifter. if those creatures don't detect as magic, then i don't know that the changeshape ability should suddenly make any other creature detectable, either.

i thought one of the earlier editions might have explicitly stated that creatures don't detect as magic in and of themselves ... maybe in a trap section, discussing creature ambush type traps? not sure how far back you'd have to go to find THAT, though ... maybe even 2nd ed?

regardless of all that, it seems cooler if you don't let a rules question subvert a sneaky ability ... it's intended to deceive, so let it deceive.


Almost 5 years?

I detect a moderate necromancy aura.


Detect Magic wrote:
Aura Strength: An aura's power depends on a spell's functioning spell level or an item's caster level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.

A Lycanthrope's Supernatural Change Shape ability doesn't have a comparable spell level, and the creature needs no caster level. A magical aura visible by Detect Magic is measured only by those two factors. Therefore, Supernatural Abilities don't create a visible magical aura (regarding Detect Magic).

Silver Crusade

Cuup wrote:
Detect Magic wrote:
Aura Strength: An aura's power depends on a spell's functioning spell level or an item's caster level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.
A Lycanthrope's Supernatural Change Shape ability doesn't have a comparable spell level, and the creature needs no caster level. A magical aura visible by Detect Magic is measured only by those two factors. Therefore, Supernatural Abilities don't create a visible magical aura (regarding Detect Magic).

That's only for determining magical aura's power whihc only come into play in the second round of maintaining the spell, you can still detect supernatural abilities through detec magic.


Rysky wrote:
Cuup wrote:
Detect Magic wrote:
Aura Strength: An aura's power depends on a spell's functioning spell level or an item's caster level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.
A Lycanthrope's Supernatural Change Shape ability doesn't have a comparable spell level, and the creature needs no caster level. A magical aura visible by Detect Magic is measured only by those two factors. Therefore, Supernatural Abilities don't create a visible magical aura (regarding Detect Magic).
That's only for determining magical aura's power whihc only come into play in the second round of maintaining the spell, you can still detect supernatural abilities through detec magic.

Arguably, if it does not have an aura, there is nothing to detect. The first line of the spell description says "You detect magical auras" and the first round reveals "Presence or absence of magical auras." One could make the case that Aura Strength=NULL is equivalent to detect magic not revealing anything.

Silver Crusade

quibblemuch wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Cuup wrote:
Detect Magic wrote:
Aura Strength: An aura's power depends on a spell's functioning spell level or an item's caster level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.
A Lycanthrope's Supernatural Change Shape ability doesn't have a comparable spell level, and the creature needs no caster level. A magical aura visible by Detect Magic is measured only by those two factors. Therefore, Supernatural Abilities don't create a visible magical aura (regarding Detect Magic).
That's only for determining magical aura's power whihc only come into play in the second round of maintaining the spell, you can still detect supernatural abilities through detec magic.
Arguably, if it does not have an aura, there is nothing to detect. The first line of the spell description says "You detect magical auras" and the first round reveals "Presence or absence of magical auras." One could make the case that Aura Strength=NULL is equivalent to detect magic not revealing anything.

That's actually covered, since the first part of the table, for Faint auras, states 3rd (for spell)/5th (for caster) or lower when detecting aura strength. And then there's "Dim" for residual auras, which are even lower than Faint.


Rysky wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
Arguably, if it does not have an aura, there is nothing to detect. The first line of the spell description says "You detect magical auras" and the first round reveals "Presence or absence of magical auras." One could make the case that Aura Strength=NULL is equivalent to detect magic not revealing anything.
That's actually covered, since the first part of the table, for Faint auras, states 3rd (for spell)/5th (for catser) or lower when detecting aura strength.

Hmm. I suppose the interpretation would hinge on whether NULL would count as a spell level or caster level for a supernatural effect. It's not 0 in either case, because a 0th level spell is a thing while the game doesn't really refer to non-casters as "0th level casters". My inclination is to say that if they don't have a caster, and hence caster level is non-existent, then your supernatural abilities don't detect as magic.

*ADDENDUM: To put it another way, non-existence is not a number. In my interpretation, your caster level if you don't have one isn't on the number line for comparison with "5th or lower" for the purposes of a faint aura.

Silver Crusade

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quibblemuch wrote:
Rysky wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
Arguably, if it does not have an aura, there is nothing to detect. The first line of the spell description says "You detect magical auras" and the first round reveals "Presence or absence of magical auras." One could make the case that Aura Strength=NULL is equivalent to detect magic not revealing anything.
That's actually covered, since the first part of the table, for Faint auras, states 3rd (for spell)/5th (for catser) or lower when detecting aura strength.
Hmm. I suppose the interpretation would hinge on whether NULL would count as a spell level or caster level for a supernatural effect. It's not 0 in either case, because a 0th level spell is a thing while the game doesn't really refer to non-casters as "0th level casters". My inclination is to say that if they don't have a caster, and hence caster level is non-existent, then your supernatural abilities don't detect as magic.

Dammit Quibble, don't make me have to use math stuff >_<

3 or 5 is greater than nothing, so nothing is covered by the "or lower" part of Faint, and then we have a level even lower than that, "Dim".

Supernatural Abilities (Su) wrote:
Supernatural abilities are magical attacks, defenses, and qualities. These abilities can be always active or they can require a specific action to utilize. The supernatural ability's description includes information on how it is used and its effects.
Antimagic Field wrote:
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

Silver Crusade

quibblemuch wrote:
*ADDENDUM: To put it another way, non-existence is not a number. In my interpretation, your caster level if you don't have one isn't on the number line for comparison with "5th or lower" for the purposes of a faint aura.

We're just gonna disagree on that :3


Rysky wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
*ADDENDUM: To put it another way, non-existence is not a number. In my interpretation, your caster level if you don't have one isn't on the number line for comparison with "5th or lower" for the purposes of a faint aura.
We're just gonna disagree on that :3

Never! All must agree with me at all times on all points or the game is RUINED! :p

Where's Tableflip McRagequit when you need him...? We never seem to be in the same room at the same time...


Nothing indicates supernatural abilities produce an aura, so they don't. If there is no aura, detect magic has nothing to detect. The name of the detect magic spell can be misleading, but we have to stick to the actual description.

It wouldn't be fun to detect any supernatural threat with a simple level 0 spell either way.


More seriously--if "NON-EXISTENT" as a spell level or caster level is considered a value on the spectrum of values (as opposed to "0" which we agree is a spell level), then inevitably someone is going to try the shenanigans of arguing that everything should detect magic with a faint value all the time, since everything mundane falls on the "lower than" part of the table.

You just know them shenanigans will happen.

Silver Crusade

It's not shenanigans to say Supernatural effects detect as magic when Supernatural explicitly say they are magic.


Agreed. I was more being absurd about the specific chain of reasoning. I really should advertise that whenever I say "More seriously..." you can pretty much assume frivolity follows...

Silver Crusade

Heh, Okies :3


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I always thought that polymorphing does not inheritly ping as magical. Like if you saw a druid as a cat in a (plural term goes here) of other cats and you detected magic they'd all look the same.

If the druid had magical items on them then they'd still ping because those items effects are still in effect.

I've always ruled that illusions also do not ping as magical because it's part of the nature of the spell to mislead.


Jader7777 wrote:
I've always ruled that illusions also do not ping as magical because it's part of the nature of the spell to mislead.

I houserule something similiar--I count detect magic as "interacted with" for the purposes of triggering a Will save. If they fail the Will save, well yes, that's a dragon right there, riding a halfling.

Strike that. Reverse it. You get the point.


detect magic doesn't detect or interact with SU stuff at all.


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Well, James Jacobs actually answered this question.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ashkar wrote:
Well, James Jacobs actually answered this question.

+1

Thanks for this. I just assumed it would detect but you wouldn't be able to get a school or level.

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