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Well in this blog many years ago he posted comments not exactly helping Wotc or 3.5 with his comments. Some I actually agree with most I do not. The link: http://www.montecook.com/arch_review26.html . Im probably being unfair yet neither is he the patron saint of the D&D hobby like some make him out to be. As I said I dont hate the guy yet sometimes he causes more trouble then he does helping ou D&D. At least this time around they made sure that he signed an NDA or we might have had something similar a second time. Now he leaves Wotc again. Companies imo dont want high profile developers who even with the best of reasons leave company they worked with twice. He may have a great relationship with Paizo. Just because its Paizo does not mena he would not have a falling out with the company.
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On a side note, I really wish that the "WotC and its' current products health is crucial for survival and expansion of our hobby, so let's all rally behind the Former Industry Leader!" train of thought would finally hit some bridge and die slowly in flames, because it's silly as hell.
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Taken from Memorax's link:
During the design of 3.0, one of the things that we realized was a huge strength of D&D is a concept we called "mastery." Mastery, in this context, is the idea that an avid fan of the game is going to really delve into the rules to understand how they work. We actually designed 3.0 with mastery in mind. For example, we created subsystems that worked like other systems, so that if you knew how one worked, you'd find the other one easier to understand. But I digress.
And there you have a very definitive reason why a LOT of people shrug their shoulders about his departure. From my own experience, system mastery, or more precisely the added gains of system mastery is a horrid step in the design process. Now he just stats that it's beneficial to people for the uses of going from one sub-sytem to another, yet it's much more than that as he stated in anothe article about feats that weren't very good (for example, Toughness). Frankly there are some people who, for whatever reason, can't put THAT much time into a system. And because of that, they get hosed because they don't know that X, Y, and Z combo does 1,000 damage on a Charge attack or that Such-and-Such spell can be used continuously throught a character's career, or that in combination with obscure item from BLah-Supplement makes a Dwarven Fighter immune to all acid damage and gives him DR 10/—.
Hopefully Monte realized how unpopular this method of design was since he did the "Ivory Tower" and "Looking at 3.5" articles and understands that D&D isn't just for people who live and breath it; it's for your average gamer, a gamer's spouse or partner, a gamer's friend who's never played before in their life, or even something to pass the time in Study Hall or Detention. Point being is that System Mastery, while great for those who spend countless hours pouring over the game, shouldn't "break" the game for those who don't know all the little nuiances or rule-lawyering. If anything, mechanics should be easy and simple yet immersive to a point so a player can pick a few options to get his ideal character in 10-20 minutes at character creation time.
And I really hope that's the way it is with the next iteration of Dungeons and Dragons.
Companies imo dont want high profile developers who even with the best of reasons leave company they worked with twice.
I really don't think that WotC/Hasbro, as a business entity, really cares about high-profile developers leaving the company, and the image that it creates.
Because, y'know, if they did, they wouldn't keep firing high-profile developers every Christmas.
As far as the comments Cook makes in his personal blog, written AFTER he left the company, about a release that he wasn't personally involved with? The guy's not allowed to have an opinion?
Cook was hired and paid to do a job. He then parted ways That job didn't entail pom-poms, sweaters and skirts with no paycheck.
He had a valid criticism of 3.5, and I appreciate that he wrote it. It wasn't written to be damaging to WotC or D&D, nor can anyone honestly point to any evidence that it was, even unintentionally.
If WotC had a problem with hiring developers critical of products WotC makes, they'd have a much smaller, and less-experienced, stable of talent.
And they wouldn't have half the people working on, or consulting on, 5E that they do now.
Rational criticism is a GOOD thing for the game and the hobby. Irrational cheerleading is not.
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So Diffan what about the folks who like system mastery? What part of 5E is for them? Could the core be simple and easy but modules stack the complexity? I have been hoping that this edition will have something for everyone but since Monte left I see a lot of folks hoping the style of game they dont like goes with him.
So Diffan what about the folks who like system mastery? What part of 5E is for them? Could the core be simple and easy but modules stack the complexity? I have been hoping that this edition will have something for everyone but since Monte left I see a lot of folks hoping the style of game they dont like goes with him.
Well for one, whatever comes out at the Playtest will probably have Mr. Cook's hand in it becuase he helped design it for so long. I doubt the other Devs will start ripping out parts he contributed to. System Master, as I experienced it, had a lot to do with picking spells and feats in 3E/3.X that didn't hamper your character. The feat might have looked good on paper, but in practice was often a bad decision. If you've obtained System Matery, it's easier to find these faults and side step them for other, better options.
In 4E, there is still System Mastery to a point and I'm sure if you go on the Character Optimization boards, they'll show you exactly where and how to achieve it. But the system itself is balanced enought that those choices (great, average, or poor) won't make or break a character or run your party into the ground. Case in point, a Fighter that takes feats that don't necessarily have to do with combat like Martial Practice, Alchemist, and Linguist can still perform pretty well in combat due to class features and abilitis inherent to a Fighter. Wtih 3.X, well that's just not the case. Not only are you specifically required to pick "Fighter" feats at 1st, 2nd, and every even level afterwards but some of those feats aren't very good. Toughness in 3E just gives you 3 HP....that's it and it's not considered a good choice by anyone for any class (except maybe Wizard at 1st level if he's human). Feats and Skill ranks are finite resources for your character to use, spend them unwisely and the system won't help you at all. 4E at least has layers where these choices are important, yet do not make or break anything your character might try to do in combat.
As to how this relates to 5E, I just don't know? I hope the level of System Mastery is low, or at least doesn't provide the opportuinity to allow people who spend hours on the game to make ridiculously broken characters because they've put in the time and study. And I'm pretty sure that people who love to delve into the system will find loopholes and ways to make really stronger characters and find trap feats, even if those feats weren't designed to be traps in the first place. And like all other add-on supplements, it makes the game more complex and thus runs the risk of having different aspects work in strange ways to create ultimiate combinations. They'll never fully get rid of System Mastery because it's inevitable with how much extra stuff goes into the system, but with a modualr approach hopefully a DM can help dictate how much mastery is required or if it'll be beneficial at all.
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On a side note, I really wish that the "WotC and its' current products health is crucial for survival and expansion of our hobby, so let's all rally behind the Former Industry Leader!" train of thought would finally hit some bridge and die slowly in flames, because it's silly as hell.
i respectfully disagree. IF wotc crashes and burns who is going to take their place. paizo possibly yet PF does not have the same brand recognition as D&D. Saying that it wont have an effect is also imo silly as hell.
Maybe Monte Cook can spring his gaming creds in the direction of Myth & Magic and author some adventures for the New Haven Games group. Heck, they've got Elmore and Easley, as well as Caldwell, 2E era artists providing some artwork for Myth & Magic. Why not a modern day pusher of DnD to boot. DnD Next never really had me. A lot of the design goals of DnD Next, the folks at New Haven Games had been pushing a year and a half before Wiz/Hasbro annouced plans for DnD Next. Look up Myth & Magic on Kickstarter. Back the project. It's an awesome system!!!
I look at systems like Swords & Wizardry (0e), Myth & Magic (2e), and Pathfinder (3e) and I wonder what D&D Next really brings new or innovative. I hated 4e in 2008 but warmed to it in 2010 with the release of D&D 4e Revised aka Essentials. It still wasn't my favorite but it at least it was different and familiar at the same time.
I wonder if Monte's heart really wasn't in it? Perhaps he was talked into something he deep down didn't really want to do. In comparison to 3e and 4e, the design team looks small and I wonder how demoralized and discouraged they have become.
I signed up for the play test and we will see what there is to see. However, this process has made me think what the D&D brand really means to me. I have a deluge of 1e-3e material that I have collected. Do I really need another version of Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Ravenloft? I don't know; it does seem the brand value comes from the settings not the game mechanics. I do know that I have become more apathetic as time moves on.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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On a side note, I really wish that the "WotC and its' current products health is crucial for survival and expansion of our hobby, so let's all rally behind the Former Industry Leader!" train of thought would finally hit some bridge and die slowly in flames, because it's silly as hell.i respectfully disagree. IF wotc crashes and burns who is going to take their place. paizo possibly yet PF does not have the same brand recognition as D&D. Saying that it wont have an effect is also imo silly as hell.
Yup, I mean look at what happened to the computer industry when IBM stopped being the leader. Oh wait...
Well remember how the film and movie industry fell apart when MGM went into receivership? OH, wait...
And look how the home video industry fell apart with the loss of Betamax, then again with the decline of VHS, then again when Lassr discs didn't take off.
And I'm sure everyone remembers how the home video game industry never recovered from the decline of Atari...
And of course, RPGs died when TSR went backrupt.
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I think people forget that D&D isn't nearly in the public eye like it was in the '80s. Most people don't give a crap about D&D. The tabletop RPG hobby is niche now, not a huge fad like it was. A healthy D&D isn't nearly as important to the hobby as it was thirty years ago.
If Hasbro shelves the brand it isn't going to hurt the hobby much.
I think people forget that D&D isn't nearly in the public eye like it was in the '80s. Most people don't give a crap about D&D. The tabletop RPG hobby is niche now, not a huge fad like it was. A healthy D&D isn't nearly as important to the hobby as it was thirty years ago.
If Hasbro shelves the brand it isn't going to hurt the hobby much.
In my view, the niche nature of the market makes the continuation of a brand known to the mainstream more important. Not that the hobby would die immediately if D&D suddenly disappeared - there'd be no appreciable impact whatsoever in the short term (internet activity aside - I'm sure there'd be quite a bit of that).
.The issue is in getting shelf space in mainstream outlets and drawing new people into the hobby. Persuading a retail outlet to accept something they've never heard of is harder than persuading them to accept a name they know (even if they're clueless as to what it actually is). Similarly with persuading parents to fork out for something they used to play, rather than something which says it's like what they used to play.
I'd be worried if any RPG ceased - the greater the scope of the game the greater the worry. For example, I think WoD's hard times has been a bad thing - the more choice on offer the better, in my opinion.
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I think people forget that D&D isn't nearly in the public eye like it was in the '80s. Most people don't give a crap about D&D. The tabletop RPG hobby is niche now, not a huge fad like it was. A healthy D&D isn't nearly as important to the hobby as it was thirty years ago.
If Hasbro shelves the brand it isn't going to hurt the hobby much.
I still think that in the general public perception "D&D" would mean something more, or at least most specific, than saying "RPG" or "TRPG".
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Yup, I mean look at what happened to the computer industry when IBM stopped being the leader. Oh wait...
Well remember how the film and movie industry fell apart when MGM went into receivership? OH, wait...
And look how the home video industry fell apart with the loss of Betamax, then again with the decline of VHS, then again when Lassr discs didn't take off.
And I'm sure everyone remembers how the home video game industry never recovered from the decline of Atari...
And of course, RPGs died when TSR went backrupt.
Or 5E D&D being a horrible game without Monte on the design team. Oh, wait...
I concede that the hobby can survive without D&D. It will hurt the industry to some extent though. Companies that might have taken a chance producing a product such as a vidoe game or non-gaming product would take a chance with an established brand like D&D. not so much with more recent brands such as PF and other fantasy rpg. Most companies are not going to take a risk with an unfamiliar brand or IP.
I agree with Steve G that because the hobby is become a more niche type of hobby we need mainstream brands to promote exposire of the hobby and increase interest. PF and others can do the job yes yet not as well known as D&D, WOD. For most gamers and non-gamers when they think if D&D it also includes games such as PF. So while the industry can survive its going to be hurting more. Saying that removing one of the biggest brands in the business and one that created the hobby as having a minor impact has no clue about branding or selling a product. You can have the best written most exciting product yet if no ones knows about it no one cares about it or will purchase it. Also your rpg or brand has to be profitable. If it's not profitable those with an an interest don;t care if its the greatest thing since sliced bread. No profit = no interest. No interest means the product dies or stagnates.
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This news has me looking forward to D&D 6th Edition.
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As much as some want to deny the power of popular brands they mean something. How many people you know drink a no nane brand type of cola. Very few if almost none. It's either Coca-cola, Pepsi-cola, 7-up or any other brand name soft drink. You have four fast food resturants on a street corner. Two no name brands one a Mcdonalds the other a Harvey. Out of the four the no name branded ones will lose money or not have as many customers.
You think customers don't love their brands. Read this book: http://www.amazon.com/For-God-Country-Coca-Cola-Definitive/dp/0465054684/re f=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1335760576&sr=8-4 look up New coke or do any research on New coke and get back to me. When Coca-Cola released New Coke consumers were screaming bloody murder because many thought Coke had ruined the perennial favorite cola drink. or if Apple went under do you think that all those with Macs would suddnely stop loving their machines and switch to a PC. Fans of the mac and apple products wuld demand that someone buyout apple and keep it going. chances are ti would be Micorsoft because they recognize the power of a brand and the following a popualr one can have.
The Hobby can survive with the D&D brand. It does need it for the visibility, popularity, profitability and just plain customers assuming that anything with a fantasy element is related to D&D.
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The following is an excerpt from an actual conversation I had a few days ago with a random guy off the street:RANDOM GUY: "Reading anything interesting?"
ME: "Yeah. It's a comparative mythology textbook."
RANDOM GUY (sounding unsure of himself): "Um, okay."
ME: "It's stories about gods and heroes from ancient cultures."
RANDOM GUY: "Oh, so it's like D&D or something."
Of course expect to be told this means nothing and proves nothing.
If the brand name goes under, people will simply buy something else. They aren't gaming just because WotC exists. They're gaming because they're gamers.
I appreciate the thought that the D&D legacy is important, but honestly speaking, that sub-50-million-dollar share is pretty much small potatoes, even in the shrinking RPG market.
I very much agree with this - in fact, WoTC leaving the market would almost certainly be good for the other producers (at least in the short term).
The only reason I feel the D&D brand matters is with regard to getting new, non-gamers into the hobby. I have no idea on the volume of sales (obviously) but I do know that D&D has a presence in mainstream, non-RPG outlets that other games cant yet manage. This increases exposure and actually allows the pool of RPGers to grow in a direction otherwise much less likely. People switching from 4E to PF or PF to 5E or anything else, doesnt actually help much.
It's the friends they get to play, plus the newcomers who give it a go, without anything more than a vague idea of what the game entails. Without D&D in target, Toys R Us or wherever they can get some shelfspace - word of mouth will still continue unabated, but one avenue of new players (and new disposable incomes) is closed off. That's my only concern.
As far as new players are concerned, I don't think D&D is any more critical than anything else. The one thing they've been doing lately is generating a media storm with all their announcements in the mainstream magazines and papers.
If D&D goes under, there will be a perfect opportunity for Paizo to copy them. Ads like "D&D is dead, long live Pathfinder", riding on the news of the brand name's demise.
Hopefully not quite so blatant, but in all honesty, sheer survival is paramount in today's economy. If WotC goes down, somebody has to climb up on the corpse and plant a new flag.
Sorry for that image. It's really late where I am, and I'm kind of sleep-deprived. :/
I would love for that to be true, however I suspect that Pathfinder's pull and advertising budget just isnt up to it. That's the problem I think - the new story will be "There are still some smaller RPGs around, but it's not what it once was..." irrespective of the actual state of affairs.
.The hypothetical "D&D is dead" ad you refer to isnt going to get a run in the mainstream press due to cost and even if it does, it isnt going to get any traction with anyone who doesnt already know what an RPG is. (All in my view, of course).
I wasn't interested in 5e at first but when I heard MC would lead design I payed closer attention.
But now it seems to me that trying to please everyone will be the downfall of 5e, as the 4e fans will see "too much oldschool deadweight" and the 3e/PF fans still say that "this is not D&D".
Seems like a loose/loose scenario.
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I think people are going to call any d20 fantasy game "D&D", regardless of who's printing it. No matter who publishes it, or who plays it, D&D is here to stay. The 4E schism proved that all WotC really has is a trademark. And that trademark has slipped into colloquial speech.
To the general public, "D&D" is role-playing, in the same manner people use "Coke" to represent any cola, or "Kleenex" to represent any facial tissue.
The following is an excerpt from an actual conversation I had a few days ago with a random guy off the street:
RANDOM GUY: "Reading anything interesting?"
ME: "Yeah. It's a comparative mythology textbook."
RANDOM GUY (sounding unsure of himself): "Um, okay."
ME: "It's stories about gods and heroes from ancient cultures."
RANDOM GUY: "Oh, so it's like D&D or something."
Notice he didn't mention Pathfinder.
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The latest Legends&Lore column by Mike Mearls has caused my interest in 5e to drop into the negatives, almost making me regret having signed up for the playtest.
More blah than meh. Sorry.
The latest Legends&Lore column by Mike Mearls has caused my interest in 5e to drop into the negatives, almost making me regret having signed up for the playtest.
More blah than meh. Sorry.
So drop the other shoe. Why does it do that for you?
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I don't mind the "partial" release (only a handful of classes and races, probably a handful of spells/skills/feats/etc.) as a first release. At all.
But having pregens only, with no infos on how to build characters and how to level up - thusly no infos on what to expect on future levels, but only having to wait until the next playtest release - well, no. Too little, too much lacking.
That means that the playtesters will work on single "screenshots" of the game, with no perspective or greater picture available until at least very far into the playtest, and with only a partial and fragmented idea of what the game will be. Too much lab-rat feeling.
Open playtests seen by Paizo and Green Ronin showed some more... respect, lacking for a more proper word, for the gamers involved, and for their opinions.
I want to stress that this is only regarding the attitude and not regarding the game (obviously I haven't seen anything real), but it's yet another little brick of enthusiasm/interest that disintegrates even before dealing with the hard data.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Or 5E D&D being a horrible game without Monte on the design team. Oh, wait...You can retire this pathetic little straw man at ANY time.
When it's all you have...
Aside on authors. The 'you're only as good as your last work' rule influences my buying at least. I mean I took a risk on Slumbering Tsar based on the writer and was rewarded. I took a risk on (in)Complete Psionic based on Bruce's work in the XPH and was disappointed. Likewise, Dreamscarred got my initial investment because of the people onboard, and continues to get my meager '3pp cash' because of their product. If I got a work like (in)Complete Psionic from them I'd have to really be wary. Likewise, I preordered DA II and was disappointed, so I'll be cautious about DA III. Using that as a guide... I know Mike Mearls attracted a lot of attention with Iron Heroes and that made people interested in his work on 4e, but the other side of the coin is people who didn't like 4e will be wary because of 5e with his name on it.
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RANDOM GUY: "Reading anything interesting?"ME: "Yeah. It's a comparative mythology textbook."
RANDOM GUY (sounding unsure of himself): "Um, okay."
ME: "It's stories about gods and heroes from ancient cultures."
RANDOM GUY: "Oh, so it's like D&D or something."
Please please PLEASE tell me this is a made up anecdote to make a point. Otherwise my concept of education fail is complete and I'm formally making a decision to hire a british nanny to homeschool my kids.
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You're the only one in this thread who's trying to prove anything, memorax.
The rest of us are just enjoying idle speculation and sharing amusing anecdotes.
Exactly.
This thread sort of feels like a room full of people all talking about a subject and then one guy bursts through the door waving his arms wildly and yelling "you're all being racist! Um, no, no, you're all being ... homophobic, yeah, that's it. No, no, you're all falling for a big alien conspiracy ... yeah, that's what I mean! Everyone stop saying terrible, horrible things that I don't agree with and PAY ATTENTION TO ME! I have very important things to say that you all MUST all listen to and AGREE with!!"
Everyone in the room kind of looks at the guy, blinks a couple times and says ... "but, none of us were saying ANY of those things. We were all just calming talking about something we find interesting. If you'd like to have a seat and join the conversation, you're more than welcomed to ..."
"I SAID, you're all being racist!!!! Um, you're all being ... homophobic, yeah, that's it. Listen to me and AGREE with me! I'm RIGHT and you all are WRONG!!! Everyone stop talking calmly and PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!!!"
Seriously man, maybe you might want to take a deep breath or three and calm down.
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As much as some want to deny the power of popular brands they mean something. How many people you know drink a no nane brand type of cola. Very few if almost none. It's either Coca-cola, Pepsi-cola, 7-up or any other brand name soft drink. You have four fast food resturants on a street corner. Two no name brands one a Mcdonalds the other a Harvey. Out of the four the no name branded ones will lose money or not have as many customers.
You think customers don't love their brands. Read this book: http://www.amazon.com/For-God-Country-Coca-Cola-Definitive/dp/0465054684/re f=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1335760576&sr=8-4 look up New coke or do any research on New coke and get back to me. When Coca-Cola released New Coke consumers were screaming bloody murder because many thought Coke had ruined the perennial favorite cola drink. or if Apple went under do you think that all those with Macs would suddnely stop loving their machines and switch to a PC. Fans of the mac and apple products wuld demand that someone buyout apple and keep it going. chances are ti would be Micorsoft because they recognize the power of a brand and the following a popualr one can have.
The Hobby can survive with the D&D brand. It does need it for the visibility, popularity, profitability and just plain customers assuming that anything with a fantasy element is related to D&D.
Irony: not realizing 4e is the "New Coke" of D&D.
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RANDOM GUY: "Reading anything interesting?"ME: "Yeah. It's a comparative mythology textbook."
RANDOM GUY (sounding unsure of himself): "Um, okay."
ME: "It's stories about gods and heroes from ancient cultures."
RANDOM GUY: "Oh, so it's like D&D or something."
Please please PLEASE tell me this is a made up anecdote to make a point. Otherwise my concept of education fail is complete and I'm formally making a decision to hire a british nanny to homeschool my kids.
Probalby is not made up. I have something similar though non-D&D. The younger generation come to the astore to buy books and complain that 300+ pages book is "too big" to read. Or get angry when their is no coles notes for every book. So your not the only person worried about the education syste.
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Checked the link that Golem 101 posted. I'm not seeing anything that would imply them being disrespectful. Not at all. More that they are trying to be very cautcious with the release of the rules and wanting to make sure to get as much feedback as possibly. A most one can say it's dry and precise in tone. I was not slighted in the least.