Magus Spell Combat with Spellstrike ... how does it work?


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

We are a little new to using a Magus in the party and we need some clarification on how/if Spell Combat and Spellstrike can be used at the same time. Here is the example that came up last night:

1) My level 5 Magus first uses his Arcane Pool ability as a swift action to make his +1 Scimitar into a +1 Keen Flaming Scimitar (I believe this is correct).

2) Next, my Magus is going to use Spell Combat to attack with a spell and his Scimitar this round.

3) For the spell attack he chooses Shocking Grasp and then uses his Scimitar to deliver the spell as a free melee touch attack via Spellstrike ability. If he hits he does both the 4d6 damage of the Shocking Grasp and then the additional +1 Keen Flaming Scimitar damage.

4) For the weapon attack he just uses his +1 Keen Flaming Scimitar as usual to attack the creature.

Is this correct? This sounds a bit too insanely powerful that you can use BOTH Spellstrike and Spell Combat at the same time.

As a bonus question how this works:

5) If you miss your Spellstrike attack (#3 above) and then hit with your weapon attack (#4 above) does the Shocking Grasp go off now with your second attack?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

1- correct
2- correct
3- correct
4- correct
5- yes

You are right, that is how the rules are written.


Stonesnake wrote:
1) My level 5 Magus first uses his Arcane Pool ability as a swift action to make his +1 Scimitar into a +1 Keen Flaming Scimitar (I believe this is correct).

Yep.

Stonesnake wrote:

2) Next, my Magus is going to use Spell Combat to attack with a spell and his Scimitar this round.

3) For the spell attack he chooses Shocking Grasp and then uses his Scimitar to deliver the spell as a free melee touch attack via Spellstrike ability. If he hits he does both the 4d6 damage of the Shocking Grasp and then the additional +1 Keen Flaming Scimitar damage.

First he must cast the spell successfully. Either with defensive casting, or by not provoking. Anyway, once that's done, yes he can deliver the spell with his weapon. Using the weapon means he must hit normal AC, not touch AC. On hit, he delivers the spell and weapon damage. Both use the critical threat range of the weapon, but the spell will always only do x2 on a confirmed crit.

At caster level 5, Shocking Grasp will deal 5d6 electricity damage, not 4d6.

Stonesnake wrote:
4) For the weapon attack he just uses his +1 Keen Flaming Scimitar as usual to attack the creature.

Unless he missed the first attack. If the spell is not discharged, you can still discharge it with the next successful attack.

Stonesnake wrote:
Is this correct? This sounds a bit too insanely powerful that you can use BOTH Spellstrike and Spell Combat at the same time.

Nope, that's how the class works. Compare it to other semi-optimized classes, and it's got pretty good burst damage, but runs out of steam quickly.

Stonesnake wrote:
5) If you miss your Spellstrike attack (#3 above) and then hit with your weapon attack (#4 above) does the Shocking Grasp go off now with your second attack?

Yep.

You might find this post helpful.


Stonesnake wrote:


Is this correct? This sounds a bit too insanely powerful that you can use BOTH Spellstrike and Spell Combat at the same time.

You can elect to use spellstrike whenever you would get a free touch attack to deliver a touch spell.

You can also deliver a held touch spell using spellstrike.

It is their core ability and how they try as a medium BAB class to compete with a full fighter in melee.

And as Grick noted you are neglecting the casting defensively, which at level 5 is by no means assured without significant investment in terms of feats, traits and stats.

-James


Grick wrote:


Nope, that's how the class works. Compare it to other semi-optimized classes, and it's got pretty good burst damage, but runs out of steam quickly.

Maguses are really powerful indeed, but I'm not so sure about running out of steam. At level 4, you can use a arcane pool point to recall a level 1 spell (which with 16 int, you'd have 5 Arcane Pool Points.) as a swift action. Pearl of Power can help as well. Also, despite the horrible feat tax that is Heighten Spell, Preferred Spell can let a Magus spontaneously cast a spell with metamagic.

At least the 7d6 (13d6 on crit) is on one monster?


Uhm...if you don't have the average number of encounters per day, ANY nova class is going to be very powerful. With one encounter a day, nothing is stopping the magus from going all out.


Marthian wrote:
At least the 7d6 (13d6 on crit) is on one monster?

Give the magus 12 strength. He's basically got +6 to hit while shocking grasp is active, to deal 7d6+2. Assuming both hit, average damage is about 26.5.

Basic level 5 Two-Handed Fighter with 18 str, Overhand Chop, Weapon Training 1, Power Attack, and Weapon Specialization.

His greatsword at +10 deals 2d6+17 for an average of 24 damage. Every attack, every AoO, all day long. If he has a magic weapon, strength belt, or was built well with a racial str bonus, it's even higher.

So yeah, the magus can deal more damage by using a full attack each round and burning resources. He could do that shocking grasp nova like 10 times if he uses all his pool points. But the fighter catches up quickly in realistic play.

Napkin math:

Fighter to hit: 5(BAB) +4(Str) +1(WT) +1(WF) -2(PA)
Fighter damage: 2d6(greatsword) +8(OC:2xStr) +1(WT) +6(PA) +2(WS)

Magus to hit: 3(BAB)+1(Str)+1(Pool)+3(Shocking)-2(SpComb)
Magus damage: 1d6+1(scim) 1d6(fire) 5d6(SG)

1d6 average 3.5 damage.


Grick wrote:
Marthian wrote:
At least the 7d6 (13d6 on crit) is on one monster?

Give the magus 12 strength. He's basically got +6 to hit while shocking grasp is active, to deal 7d6+2. Assuming both hit, average damage is about 26.5.

Basic level 5 Two-Handed Fighter with 18 str, Overhand Chop, Weapon Training 1, Power Attack, and Weapon Specialization.

His greatsword at +10 deals 2d6+17 for an average of 24 damage. Every attack, every AoO, all day long. If he has a magic weapon, strength belt, or was built well with a racial str bonus, it's even higher.

So yeah, the magus can deal more damage by using a full attack each round and burning resources. He could do that shocking grasp nova like 10 times if he uses all his pool points. But the fighter catches up quickly in realistic play.

** spoiler omitted **

Here's the problem. I don't see a lot of Strength-based Maguses, most are Dex-based for Dervish Dance, and usually their dex is a lot higher than 12.

So using my PFS Magus (level 5), and a +1 Keen Scimitar (chronicle sheet don't ask)
She has 20 Dex
(5 dex + 4 bab + 1 enhance)
She can also enhance for a +1 flaming or flame strike
If the target is metal, it's a +3 to hit (as far as I've read).
She can do arcane accuracy to gain an extra +3 to hit
So either
+9 to hit for 6d6+6 (regular) 28 average damage
+10 to hit for 7d6+7 (enhance) 31 average damage
+13 to hit for 7d6+7 (metal enhance) 31 average damage
Under optimal conditions (+1 Flaming Strike Keen Scimitar), she crits on a 15-20 rather than the fighter's 19-20 (17-20 if keen) for:
+15 to hit (metal and arcane accuracy), if she crits and confirms, then it's a whopping 13d6+1d10+12 for average 63 damage.

Don't get me started on a intensified shocking grasp at level 10
(if she crits with a enhanced +1 Keen Flaming Strike Frost scimitar, if flaming and frost stack) 24d6+1d10+12 for about 102 damage.

All of this on a Standard Action.

Sorry for the mess, and while it is true the fighter can do constant damage all the time, the Magus can do a lot of burst damage.


Marthian wrote:
Sorry for the mess, and it is true the fighter can do constant damage all the time, the Magus can do a lot of burst damage.

In PF the fighter might not look sexy but he really gets the job done.

The magus is flashy, but baring its use as an NPC that only has one fight to build for.. barely treads water. And is burning through resources left and right to do so.

Its actually about right and done well.

For PFS a dervish magus is the way to go for damage, but they are not surpassing the fighter in fighting.

Now you are 5th level, and you're talking about round 2 (as you're talking two swift actions) and burning 2 of your what 5 arcana pool points? You also have the wrong BAB.. your BAB is 3 not 4.

So buffed twice you are at +14 to hit assuming that you have previously cast your shocking grasp spell or have cast the shocking grasp at distanced and are walking up to deliver it. And you are what bonus on that concentration check? If your INT is 18 that's only a +9 + feat/trait. You've spent 1/2 of your feats on finesse & dance.. what feats did you pick up at 5th? Did you delay intensive spell until 7th?

When using spell combat you take a -2 to hit. (I know you weren't doing this, but in general you will be full attacking)

Now the fighter is always at around a +14 (5BAB 6STR 1magic 1training 1focus +1 comp -1PA) dealing 2d6 +19 or 26 average damage. Enlarged the fighter is at +14 to hit for 3d6 +20 or 30.5 average damage.

Now lets have both of you hasted by the party summoner/wizard. Let's have you attacking AC 21 (some guy in full plate.. to give you your +3 advantage).

You use spell combat possibly successfully cast your shocking grasp defensively (say 75% chance.. you took the regional trait but not the feat) then attack once at +13, then at +10 & +10 (with a +3 if you miss the first attack if the spell is still held) or only at +10/+10 if you fail the concentration check.

So 25% chance 10/10 attacks at 13 average damage. Thus you expect from this .25 x 1.3 x 13 = 4.225

Now 75% chance to get the spell off. Now you get attacks 10/10/10 (with +3 until you hit) for 13 average damage plus the 17.5 shocking grasp. You expect from this around .75 x ( .4 x .65 x 17.5 ) + .75 x 2.1 x 13 + .75 x .9125 x 17.5 = .75 x (4.55 + 27.3 + 16) = 35.887

So you expect to do around 40 damage in the round that you've gone nova (burning your 2nd pool point for the combat).

Now here's a fighter with a +1 keen (only fair) greatsword that's enlarged (quick potion say).

He attacks at 15/14 for 3d6 + 20 or 30.5 average damage. He expects to deal on the first attack .90 x 30.5 = 27.45 and on the second .85 x 30.5 = 25.925 for a total of 53 or so.

Without the enlarge the fighter looses 7.875.. so is still dealing more than the magus.

Like I said.. the magus is sexy.. but has to run to compete with the bland fighter. Focusing on max damage is like drooling over a scythe for when it crits as opposed to a falchion for how often it crits.

-James


james maissen wrote:
Marthian wrote:
Sorry for the mess, and it is true the fighter can do constant damage all the time, the Magus can do a lot of burst damage.

In PF the fighter might not look sexy but he really gets the job done.

The magus is flashy, but baring its use as an NPC that only has one fight to build for.. barely treads water. And is burning through resources left and right to do so.

Its actually about right and done well.

For PFS a dervish magus is the way to go for damage, but they are not surpassing the fighter in fighting.

Now you are 5th level, and you're talking about round 2 (as you're talking two swift actions) and burning 2 of your what 5 arcana pool points? You also have the wrong BAB.. your BAB is 3 not 4.

So buffed twice you are at +14 to hit assuming that you have previously cast your shocking grasp spell or have cast the shocking grasp at distanced and are walking up to deliver it. And you are what bonus on that concentration check? If your INT is 18 that's only a +9 + feat/trait. You've spent 1/2 of your feats on finesse & dance.. what feats did you pick up at 5th? Did you delay intensive spell until 7th?

When using spell combat you take a -2 to hit. (I know you weren't doing this, but in general you will be full attacking)

Now the fighter is always at around a +14 (5BAB 6STR 1magic 1training 1focus +1 comp -1PA) dealing 2d6 +19 or 26 average damage. Enlarged the fighter is at +14 to hit for 3d6 +20 or 30.5 average damage.

Now lets have both of you hasted by the party summoner/wizard. Let's have you attacking AC 21 (some guy in full plate.. to give you your +3 advantage).

You use spell combat possibly successfully cast your shocking grasp defensively (say 75% chance.. you took the regional trait but not the feat) then attack once at +13, then at +10 & +10 (with a +3 if you miss the first attack if the spell is still held) or only at +10/+10 if you fail the concentration check.

So 25% chance 10/10 attacks at 13 average damage. Thus you expect from this .25 x 1.3...

yeah, I did grab the wrong BAB. And if your clever, you don't need to make a lot of concentration checks. I also tend to hit a lot even without boosts (I never factor in shocking grasp's +3 and seldomly use arcane accuracy).

Even asides from damage, maguses have other uses, so do fighters. Also, terribly sorry to OP for driving the thread off topic and turning it into a comparison.


Stonesnake wrote:


3) For the spell attack he chooses Shocking Grasp and then uses his Scimitar to deliver the spell as a free melee touch attack via Spellstrike ability. If he hits he does both the 4d6 damage of the Shocking Grasp and then the additional +1 Keen Flaming Scimitar damage.

Thats not right.

If you use Spellstrike you have to make a normal melee attack, not a melee touch attack.


Looking at a 16th level magus, whose base attack with associated feats are:

+25/+20/+15 melee (1 HND): +2 Bastard Sword (1d10+10/17-20/x2)

Round 1: As swift action, spends 2 arcane points to make +2 Bastard Sword into +2 Speed Bastard Sword.

Round 2: Using spellstrike, he casts corrosive consumption (Ultimate Magic). Does he get the following attacks:

+25/+25/+20/+15 melee (1 HND): +2 Speed Bastard Sword (1d10+10/17-20/x2) and if any of those attacks succeed the target is affected once by the corrosive consumption spell.

Alternatively,

If the magus instead forgoes the speed ability in round 1 and uses the swift action to spend 2 arcane points to gain Accurate Strikes and combines the attack with his combat expertise feat (-/+4) and greater spell combat (INT modifier +5), would the attack then be:

+14/+9/+4 melee TOUCH attack (1 HND): +2 Bastard Sword (1d10+10/17-20/x2) and if any of those attacks succeed the target is affected once by the corrosive consumption spell.

Adjustments: -2 penalty for spell combat, -4 combat expertise, and -5 intelligence modifier and gains a +12 bonus to cast defensively.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Magus Spell Combat with Spellstrike ... how does it work? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.