FoB and wielding a 2H weapon


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

I apologize for not fully searching through existing threads. That said, how does/would/will Flurry of Blows work while wielding a 2 handed weapon? Such as...

A weapon adept/cleric with a spiked chain (favored weapon of Zon-Kuthon).

A sohei with a greatsword.

I assume...First flurry with the 2H, second flurry with a kick/headbutt, third flurry with 2H, and so on.


Brad McDowell wrote:
First flurry with the 2H, second flurry with a kick/headbutt, third flurry with 2H, and so on.

I won't address the flurry issue, but I wanted to say that order of attacks during a Full Attack only matters for attacks granted by high BAB - Iterative attacks. They must be made in descending order.

Extra attacks granted by Two-Weapon Fighting, Haste, or Flurry are not granted by high BAB, so they do not need to be made in order from highest bonus to lowest.

If a guy is Two-Weapon Fighting with a greatsword and unarmed strikes, the main-hand (probably greatsword) attacks must be made in descending order, but he can sprinkle in his off-hand (or natural, or haste, etc.) attacks pretty much whenever he wants.


Brad McDowell wrote:

I apologize for not fully searching through existing threads. That said, how does/would/will Flurry of Blows work while wielding a 2 handed weapon? Such as...

A weapon adept/cleric with a spiked chain (favored weapon of Zon-Kuthon).

A sohei with a greatsword.

I assume...First flurry with the 2H, second flurry with a kick/headbutt, third flurry with 2H, and so on.

Weapon adept cannot flurry with a non-monk weapon, so no spiked chain flurrying allowed.

Sohei: There are differing opinions. I understand it that they cannot flurry with non-monk weapons, see here if you like.

The rest was answered by Grick. I would only add that you may substitute unarmed strike for your flurry attacks.

Silver Crusade

Let me expand (and clarify) then...

A weapon adept/cleric with a spiked chain (favored weapon of Zon-Kuthon)and the Crusader's Flurry feat.

A 6th level sohei with greatsword weapon training.


Brad McDowell wrote:

Let me expand (and clarify) then...

A weapon adept/cleric with a spiked chain (favored weapon of Zon-Kuthon)and the Crusader's Flurry feat.

A 6th level sohei with greatsword weapon training.

Ah, nice and important addition. I think you found a way to allow the Weapon adept to flurry with non-monk weapons :-)

So your main attacks would be with the spiked chain, your extra attacks from flurrying would be with unarmed strike.

Sohei still won't work.

Silver Crusade

Sohei
Weapon training (Ex) At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training blah blah blah...
A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces (a lot of monk stuff).

Also, I chose Zon-Kuthon so your monk can be LN, one step away from your deity.


Brad McDowell wrote:

Sohei

Weapon training (Ex) At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training blah blah blah...
A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces (a lot of monk stuff).

Also, I chose Zon-Kuthon so your monk can be LN, one step away from your deity.

You are right here, I was kind of assuming that you would be using armor as well which makes you lose the flurry of blows ability. Sorry, mixing up with another thread...

Yeah, just with that feature and without armor you would be fine :-)


Forget what I said about the FoB restriction on armor. I checked the Paizo PRD and it's different from the d20pfsrd I used before. So you are fine with that :-)


You may know this bit I did not see it anywhere, a flurry treats all attacks as primary weapons with no off hand attack. All attacks will be made with +strength bonus, non at +1/2 or +1-1/2 strength bonus.

At least the monk one does, I don't know about the crusader version.


Sangalor wrote:
Forget what I said about the FoB restriction on armor. I checked the Paizo PRD and it's different from the d20pfsrd I used before. So you are fine with that :-)

Are you saying there's a way to wear armor and not lose Flurry of Blows? (This thread is rather hard to follow)

Dark Archive

Actually it's worse, at least until they get Sohei clarified. You can't use the same weapon for Flurry of Blows, which (right now) messes up any Sohei who wants to use a two-handed weapon (unless it's an alchemist Sohei with 4 arms). So it is currently impossible; stay tuned to see if Paizo changes this, but their logic is there is no other way to two-weapon fight with the same weapon, so it makes that weapon undercosted.


Grick wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
Forget what I said about the FoB restriction on armor. I checked the Paizo PRD and it's different from the d20pfsrd I used before. So you are fine with that :-)

Are you saying there's a way to wear armor and not lose Flurry of Blows? (This thread is rather hard to follow)

Yes, they keep it. Standard monk definition:


  • Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
    Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear.

    Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields.

    When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
    -> Note that the effect of using flurry of blows when wearing armor is presented here, not in the flurry of blows section below.

  • AC Bonus (Ex):
    When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

    These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

  • Flurry of Blows (Ex):Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

    At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

    At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

    A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Updated for Sohei entries:


  • Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
    A sohei is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.
    -> Not proficient with monk weapons
  • AC Bonus (Ex):
    When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

    These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
    -> loses this bonus to AC when wearing armor

  • Flurry of Blows (Ex):Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

    At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

    At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

    A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
    -> Sohei can only flurry with monk weapons, but with those he is not proficient (unless they are included in simple or martial weapons)

  • Weapon Training (Ex):
    At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.
    -> Now he can flurry with any weapon in which he has weapon training. Incidentally, monk weapons are included as well, so you can - if you gained proficiency somehow - still flurry with those.

So the Sohei can flurry in armor :-)

Silver Crusade

Completely NOT what this thread was about.


Sangalor wrote:
Yes, they keep it.

Off-Topic Sohei Flurry:

I wrote the turnover for the monk section and can tell you my opinion as it pertains to the RAI of the sohei; however, my opinions carry no official weight as RAW if you are playing PFS or another campaign wherein that is important. For players in those campaigns, FAQ it and wait for SKR, SRM, or JB to comment.

For those interested in an unofficial opinion, however, I will tell you that the sohei is proficient with simple and martial weapons and with light armor; however, this is *NOT* meant to supersede the normal limitation on flurry of blows or any other monk ability that is limited by weapon or armor type, unless specifically noted to the contrary (as it is with the weapon training class feature, which lets you flurry with a weapon in which you have weapon training, rather than just unarmed strike or monk weapons).


Grick wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
Yes, they keep it.

** spoiler omitted **

Yes he said that he didn't *mean* to remove that restriction. He also said that he didn't think it really mattered.

Frankly I agree with him.. the Sohei's more egregious abilities are not the flurry in armor.

All that said the Sohei was either never fully done out, or the editor did a bad, bad job with it. It does not read well at all and the reader needs to fill in gaps that should simply not exist in a rulebook.

In general the archetypes would benefit from not being written as if they were 'errata' for their base class, but rather get closer to a full write up like the Ninja received. This would greatly help reduce these problems.

Add to that if the writeup would then follow with a list of previous archetypes that were compatible (spelling out how when deemed prudent). Since such a relationship is symmetric new archetypes only have to reference the older ones and not vice versa.

It would be nice if Paizo ever considers a PF 2nd edition (or 1.5 even) that they look towards where these confusions occur and seek to avoid them (say by not overusing words for multiple terms.. level, etc).

-James

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / FoB and wielding a 2H weapon All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.