3. What bothers me is that, while it is limited/day, the bombs are a "I Win" button to be used against just about any BBEG in that 100' range in 1-2 rounds. Unless I build a BBEG to have a high touch AC or...
Or unless you play that day smarter and don't let them nova on your BBEG. If that alchemist has all his bombs left by the time the BBEG gets to the party (or the party gets to him) then the Alchemist has not done something right, YOU have done something wrong.
Parties eat BBEG's when you let them get to them totally fresh. And you seem to be obsessing on the bombs when there have been at least 5 ways shown you that they can be countered.
Have you thought that a 1500 year old dragon IS 1500 years old because he does NOT think his AC is enough protection? He protects himself like he is paranoid, because everyone IS out to get him for his hoard, his hide, his bones etc.
Old dragons are old because they cover all the bases. When you have 2000 years to live, usually alone, then you fill in the hours doing silly extreme things to keep yourself alive.
Another sort of fundamental issue is that hugely above-CR creatures don't scale the same against every type of character, which is why that's not a good way to do a BBEG, unless you want the climactic encounter to be one where half of the party barely gets to participate. CR isn't a universal "hardness" measure that you can keep cranking up to make encounters more challenging in the same degree to everyone; while increasing CR does make encounters harder, once you get more than a few levels away from the party then the fact that different combat subsystems don't scale at the same rate means that the challenge won't increase proportionately for the whole party. In particular, anything that targets touch AC (gunslinger, alchemist, ray caster) is unusually resistant to most of the changes that come with increased CR. SoD casters are also less affected than weapon fighters.
"Have you thought that a 1500 year old dragon IS 1500 years old because he does NOT think his AC is enough protection? He protects himself like he is paranoid, because everyone IS out to get him for his hoard, his hide, his bones etc."
Maybe it's also his 34 SR, 15 DR, etc that also keeps him happy at night.
Outside of possibly a bottle of alchemist fire, nothing short of a level 18+ character is going to make him blink. :P
Now, again, even if I went with the fact he's paranoid or whatnot...the fact is, he doesn't have spells on his monster sheet that specifically helps him against bombs. It's like Bombs are his great kryptonite. He can't get within 100 feet of an alchemist because, just like kryptonite, he'll melt. He'll stand toe to toe against dozens of level 10 fighters, mages, etc, knowing his natural defenses will protect him (even against the occasional natural 20, he'll have plenty of time to mow them down without being too fancy).
But, if he goes up against a dozen alchemists with the right feats, Watch out! He has to stay away from those alchemical slinging harbingers of death! Because a dozen level 10 alchemists could take him down in 1 round if he doesn't properly prepare ...or, at the very least, keep his distance!
In fact, he might have to be careful with even a flyby attack at alchemists...if they hold their action until he swoops in, those bad boys could put a hurtin' on epic dragon...while the other heroes watch their arrows and spells bounch off the dragon's otherwise invulnerable skin.
I would normally agree, Skald. That's why I post this here. I very much love Pathfinder...I have a number of campaigns going...and I'm a huge supporter. One of the reasons why is that, while not perfectly balanced, it's pretty close.
So, I kinda think that if I think something is broken, that I'm missing a rule somewhere.
If something I've said is wrong (Maybe there are a LOT of high touch AC high level mobs....or maybe Spell Resistance applies to bombs!), then please, help me out. Someone has already helped me in that regard by pointing out that I allowed the player to throw the bomb too far (100 ft max). Anything else you can contribute would be great!
Personally, I didn't beileve you could even throw that many bombs/round using feats like two handed fighting (for the exact reason you said...sounds too good to be true) and the such until a player showed me the official errata saying that it is OK. I was stunned.
Just so you know, Alchemists aren't the only ones that get to do this. Unless I'm mistaken, a high level gunslinger can ignore a target's armor at long range and do multiple attacks in a single round. At that level his gun would probably be magical as well, so the dragon's DR wouldn't protect against that either.
It depends on the Gunpowder age the campaign is set in, I believe. If you're playing an older age, the touch attack only works in the first range increment, and it isn't very far. However, if you play a more modern age, then, yes, with the right feats, you can have multiple touch attcks/round. You'll do less damage than an alchemist at higher levels, but you probably won't run out of bullets as fast as he runs out of bombs.
BTW...I'm not even going into effects that can be added onto bombs, expended splash range, etc. While those are powerful elements, they have saves which make it nearly impossible for them to affect CR +7 to 10 baddies. The Bomb's primary damage, however, is all but avoidable, even by the most powerful creatures, without using distance tactics or spells/abilities not normally on their list.
How it should happen.
First Round : Dragon breaths breath weapon on as many as possible. Everyone misses, Alchemist hits.
Second Round : Dragon kills Alchemist with a full attack. If not possible, he bites the Alchemist for a bunch of damage. If not possible, he casts Resist Elements for fire (or whatever the alchemist threw). He doesn't care about provoking, the PCs aren't hitting him.
Third Round : Kill Alchemist if not already killed, or someone else.
Fourth Round : Repeat round 3 until TPK.
I read he had an RP reason not to attack the first two rounds. That's fine, he can still talk and cast his resistance to fire. For that matter, he can incorporate it. "Foolish worms, you think a pitiful thing like that can hurt me? Hah! I am a Dragon you fool, the least of my spells protects me from the most powerful of your attacks." Then he casts.
He doesn't have resist fire.... he'd have to burn a limited wish....and that's if he knew, somehow, at the alchmist had a way to damage him easily with fire (in contrast to the alchmist wizard friend 10' away who's fireball spells mean absolutely nothing to the dragon). And, little does the draggy know that as soon as he casts Resist Fire (assuming that the alchemist rolls a modest spellcraft check), the alchemist will start throwing acid bombs!
And while the 2nd round attack on the alchemist might kill the alchemist, it might not. Especially if, on the first round, the draggy got initiative. He breathed, but doesn't move to the alchemist (Since, I would imagine, most draggies would go for wizards first. They're squishy and could be a threat if they get lucky on a SR check). Since alchemist is not in melee range on round 2, he'll have to use a move to get to the alchemist and do one standard attack. But, it's probably moot. The dragon lost more than a quarter of his HPs on that first attack from the PC (who was 7 levels lower than him), so he's not going to stick around...(after all, he didn't get to be 1,500 years old staying in battles where he lost so many HPs on round 1! And who knows...maybe others know of this kryptonite...errr....alchemist fire as well!), he has to turn tail and pull out of distance, FAST. An epic great wyrm that's 7 levels above the party has been routed, at least temporarily, by a petty alchemist. LMAO.
Of course...I'd hate to be that party....after all...since the Draggy knows that this group, which before was considered a petty nuisance, has a secret to hurt him with fire that's much more terrifying than magic ever was to him, well...he's going to have to hunt them down! He'll probably leave the alchemist alive, though, to teach him the power of this fire/acid that can hurt even the toughest of hide...so he can use it against any competing dragon in the area!
Dragon's are sorcerers. Resist Energy is a staple spell for a sorcerer, especially a dragon. Especially considering they fight other dragons who use breath weapons. No dragon should not have that spell. Not and reach the age to be +7 CR to something.
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He doesn't have resist fire.... he'd have to burn a limited wish....and that's if he knew, somehow, at the alchmist had a way to damage him easily with fire (in contrast to the alchmist wizard friend 10' away who's fireball spells mean absolutely nothing to the dragon).
And while the 2nd round attack on the alchemist might kill the alchemist, it might not. Especially if, on the first round, the draggy got initiative. he breathes, but doesn't move to the alchemist (Since, I would imagine, most draggies would go for wizards first. They're squishy and could be a threat if they get lucky on a SR check). Since he's not in melee range, he'll have to use a move to get to the alchemist and do one standard attack. The dragon lost more than 1/2 his HPs on that first attack, so he's not going to stick around...so, he has to turn tail and pull out of distance, FAST. An epic great wyrm that's 7 levels above the party has been routed, at least temporarily, by a petty alchemist. LMAO.
Uh...that's a whole lot of assumptions involved there.
What color was this Dragon, anyway? And why in the world would it not do something like casually use Limited Wish to cast Antimagic Field (which negates bombs entirely) after the first turn? Assuming it doesn't have Antimagic Field already (as the CR 19 Red Dragon, the only one I can find with a pre-chosen Spell List and Limited Wish, does). The Bombs are supernatural, and simply fail within an antimagic field.
I mean, I'm just looking at the spell list, and that was my immediate thought, and I'm hardly an Int 20 elder dragon.
He also has access to Quickened Resist Energy available now that I look at him.
Actually, looking at the whole stats of the CR 19 Red, he's also got Power Attack and Greater Vital Strike. That's 16d6+42 damage on a single attack. So 98 HP damage average on a single attack. How many HP did the Alchemist have again? Because at Con 14 or less that's enough to take him out right there.
I can only tell you what's in the PFSRD, my friend. They don't have it. And, again, even if he DOES have it, the alchemist can switch to a different element of bomb on the fly.
I think the reason they don't have it, is, outside of an alchemist, there's just no way to reliably deliver a metric ton of elemental damage to a dragon. Before the alchemist class, the vest majority of elemetal damage was delivered via magic. Having a high SR, saves and the occasional dispel magic and globe of invulnerability pretty much kept ya covered.
Now you have a pure elemental attack that's delivered via a nearly gaurenteed tossed bomb/touch attack, does massive damage (about the same or more as a ray of disintegrate), and it allows no SR *or* saving throw (unlike RoD). Sure, having a resist spell or two would be REALLY helpful, but you'll be wasting a round as the alchemist changes elements and finishes you off.
"What color was this Dragon, anyway? And why in the world would it not do something like casually use Limited Wish to cast Antimagic Field (which negates bombs entirely) after the first turn? Assuming it doesn't have Antimagic Field already (as the CR 19 Red Dragon, the only one I can find with a pre-chosen Spell List and Limited Wish, does). The Bombs are supernatural, and simply fail within an antimagic field."
Antimagic field doesn't work on bombs no more than Spell Resistance does. Bombs are not magic...they're alchemical. That's what makes them so bloody potent. Neither physical protection (AC) or magic protection (SR) stops them...only Dodge AC which is in very short supply.
I'm looking at green draggy. That's what the group fought. The Achemist has a decent CON, takes the HP at level up and has toughness.
Isn't it funny, though, that the draggy of that power level should even HAVE to be concerned about so...insignficant (level -7). Everyone else around the draggy can't touch him except for one flea bag who's actually hurting him pretty bad. LOL
Antimagic field doesn't work on bombs no more than Spell Resistance does. Bombs are not magic...they're alchemical. That's what makes them so bloody potent. Neither physical protection (AC) or magic protection (SR) stops them...only Dodge AC which is in very short supply.I'm looking at green draggy. That's what the group fought. The Achemist has a decent CON, takes the HP at level up and has toughness.
Isn't it funny, though, that the draggy of that power level should even HAVE to be concerned about so...insignficant (level -7). Everyone else around the draggy can't touch him except for one flea bag who's actually hurting him pretty bad. LOL
Bombs are a Supernatural ability, and hence do not function in an antimagic field.
An ancient green dragon has both Displacement and Mirror Image on his list. Either one of those would have put a serious damper on the Alchemist's offense.
"What color was this Dragon, anyway? And why in the world would it not do something like casually use Limited Wish to cast Antimagic Field (which negates bombs entirely) after the first turn? Assuming it doesn't have Antimagic Field already (as the CR 19 Red Dragon, the only one I can find with a pre-chosen Spell List and Limited Wish, does). The Bombs are supernatural, and simply fail within an antimagic field."Antimagic field doesn't work on bombs no more than Spell Resistance does. Bombs are not magic...they're alchemical. That's what makes them so bloody potent. Neither physical protection (AC) or magic protection (SR) stops them...only Dodge AC which is in very short supply.
I'm looking at green draggy. That's what the group fought. The Achemist has a decent CON, takes the HP at level up and has toughness.
Isn't it funny, though, that the draggy of that power level should even HAVE to be concerned about so...insignficant (level -7). Everyone else around the draggy can't touch him except for one flea bag who's actually hurting him pretty bad. LOL
Bomb (Su) is a supernatural ability (that is what the (Su) means) and, like any supernatural ability, it does not work in a Antimagic Field. However, the dragon's breath wouldn't work either in an Antimagic Field.
Ok...given that is what it says....fine, I all acquest that scenario.
I still think it's really pretty silly that a Dragon (as well as MOST CR 20+ creatures) have to even resort to any extraordinary defensive measures to deal with any level 13-14 group....especially given that every other class (outside of one heck of a hail mary SR check followed by a miserable save throw) at that level is pretty much completely powerless against the majority of CR 20+ creatures, including great green dragons. The fact that one alchmist can take out a quarter of the green draggy's HPs at seven levels below and that four alchemists can reliably kill a dragon (they'd have to roll a 1 to miss) in one round if that antimagic field is not up for whatever reason, is absolutely amazing.
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You should see what they do against Golems...
I learned this truth last night in my RoTRL game.
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Antimagic field doesn't work on bombs no more than Spell Resistance does. Bombs are not magic...they're alchemical. That's what makes them so bloody potent. Neither physical protection (AC) or magic protection (SR) stops them...only Dodge AC which is in very short supply.
You are quite wrong. Read the Bombs ability and the spell in question. Like a Druid's Wild Shape it is Supernatural...and thus countered by Antimagic Field.
I'm looking at green draggy. That's what the group fought. The Achemist has a decent CON, takes the HP at level up and has toughness.
Do you mean this?
Because that's not an official spell list at all. It's just one someone (completely unaffiliated with Paizo) threw together when statting the Great Wyrm. Only the stat blocks that come from a Bestiary are official, and even with those, you're expected to tailor the spell list somewhat. And that stat block has five ways I can think of to casually stop the alchemist:
1. Summon Monster VII right next to the Alchemist. Ranged attacks provoke, watch alchemist get swallowed by T-Rex. Least effective option, also funniest.
2. Acid Fog on the Alchemist. No ranged attacks are allowed out of the fog cloud. There is no save. The alchemist is probably trpped in there at least one round, and certainly has to move out, dropping him to one attack.
3. Power Word Stun on the alchemist. Again, no Save.
4. Plane Shift the Alchemist to the Negative Energy plane. This one's resistable with a DC 23 Will Save...what's the Alchemist's weak save again?
5. Cast Mirror Image. Easiest and lowest level. Which, honestly, should've been done during the two rounds of talking. Who has this and doesn't use it pre-fight? Adds 1d4+5 duplicates, each of which will eat a bomb for him, making him almost completely immune to a round or two of bombs (he'll probably get hit by a bomb or so in each of the first two rounds).
If he really had Limited Wish his options expand astronomically.
And it's worth noting that Green and Black are actualy the only listed Chromatic Dragon stat-blocks that lack Resist Energy. Just FYI.
Isn't it funny, though, that the draggy of that power level should even HAVE to be concerned about so...insignficant (level -7). Everyone else around the draggy can't touch him except for one flea bag who's actually hurting him pretty bad. LOL
-7 CR isn't insignificant, necessarily. It's not a true foe, but it can be a deadly annoyance. Look at a 5th level characters vs. ordinary Orc Warriors (same CR difference).
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Ok...given that is what it says....fine, I all acquest that scenario.
Cool. :)
I still think it's really pretty silly that a Dragon (as well as MOST CR 20+ creatures) have to even resort to any extraordinary defensive measures to deal with any level 13-14 group....especially given that every other class (outside of one heck of a hail mary SR check followed by a miserable save throw) at that level is pretty much completely powerless against the majority of CR 20+ creatures, including great green dragons. The fact that one alchmist can take out a quarter of the green draggy's HPs at seven levels below and that four alchemists can reliably kill a dragon (they'd have to roll a 1 to miss) in one round if that antimagic field is not up for whatever reason, is absolutely amazing.
It's a tactic that's destroyed completely by a 2nd level spell. When you lack the particular trick to defeat a low level capability, it often becomes annoyingly difficult to do so. Look at Invisibility, if you happen not to have a counter, it's a bit of a game breaker.
And looking at the non-Dragon CR 20 critters available, almost all either have Touch ACs in at least the high teens or low to mid 20s (making this by no means a sure thing) or some way to protect themselves from this trick in whole or in part (Resistance to Energy, Antimagic Field, Protection From Energy, being incorporeal, etc.)
The Thalassic Behemoth and the Tarn Linnorm are admittedly screwed, and the Jinushigami (with only Resistance 10 vs. three energy types), Star Spawn of Cthulhu (who must rely on them failing a DC 29 Will Save) and Void Lord Oni (who must rely on Chill Shield and immunity to cold) are in a bit of trouble, but all have healing and enough offense to swat the offending mortal like a bug.
Now, if you go Force Bomb, it's a bit easier to get through these folks defenses...but your damage suffers, and they'll be every bit as inclined to swat you, something many can do casually.
In fact, he might have to be careful with even a flyby attack at alchemists...if they hold their action until he swoops in, those bad boys could put a hurtin' on epic dragon...while the other heroes watch their arrows and spells bounch off the dragon's otherwise invulnerable skin.
I mentioned flyby cause the only reason alchemist is hypothetically able to pump out respectable dps in the first place is full attack / TWF / Rapid Shot/Bombs level nova'ing.
If you're seriously worried about what the alchemist can do on a standard action readied attack vs. what the DRAGON can do with his standard...
I can't take this thread seriously anymore, I'm sorry.
Note in my example I was talking about multiple alchemists....not just one. Four dozen level 10 of any Class can't touch a dragon, but two dozen alchemists at level 10 with a redied action can totally kill a lv 20 draggy on a flyby if that flyby, at any point, brings him within 100 ft of each of them. That, my friend, is what I find interesting. If the dragon uses the wrong tactic because of sheer ignorance, he can lose to a group 10 levels below him.
As far as invisibility....well...I dont think draggy had a quick counter to that...and I don't believe he sees invisible....but, the thing is....the lv 10 invisible creature really has no way to hurt a draggy much outside of a 20, even with bonuses...unless, of course, he has bombs!
Because that's not an official spell list at all. It's just one someone (completely unaffiliated with Paizo) threw together when statting the Great Wyrm. Only the stat blocks that come from a Bestiary are official, and even with those, you're expected to tailor the spell list somewhat. And that stat block has five ways I can think of to casually stop the alchemist:
1. Summon Monster VII right next to the Alchemist. Ranged attacks provoke, watch alchemist get swallowed by T-Rex. Least effective option, also funniest.
2. Acid Fog on the Alchemist. No ranged attacks are allowed out of the fog cloud. There is no save. The alchemist is probably trpped in there at least one round, and certainly has to move out, dropping him to one attack.
3. Power Word Stun on the alchemist. Again, no Save.
4. Plane Shift the Alchemist to the Negative Energy plane. This one's resistable with a DC 23 Will Save...what's the Alchemist's weak save again?
5. Cast Mirror Image. Easiest and lowest level. Which, honestly, should've been done during the two rounds of talking. Who has this and doesn't use it pre-fight? Adds 1d4+5 duplicates, each of which will eat a bomb for him, making him almost completely immune to a round or two of bombs (he'll probably get hit by a bomb...
First, I actually use Herolab, which is officially licensed and all that other Jazz. And that spell wasn't there. I don't see it listed in Beastiery as well. Second, as I've established, even draggy cast it, Alchemist could use a different element. Third, as I've said in the beginning, Draggy was never in any danger of dying during the encounter. And while we've sparred about particular situations which might be adventagous for one alchemist within a party to get a leg up on a much higher CR Draggy, I never once indicated that the alchemist in that party would get the Draggy before the Draggy took it out with one of it's many weapons. I have implied that a team of alchemists could take down a draggy before it attacks them if it is silly enough to get close enough without the proper approach (either long distance attacks, or proper magic buffing), whereas, the draggy has to do take NO such precautions when attacking any other CR -10 to CR -7 humanoids. Because they are like ants to him...a total and utter non threat. In five rounds of combat against a party of six, the Draggy did not take ONE hit or spell from any party member except the alchemist. If allowed to continue with full attacks, the Alchemist could have taken him down in 4 turns. A party of FIVE other characters of all different classes couldn't even scratch him.
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Note in my example I was talking about multiple alchemists....not just one. Four dozen level 10 of any Class can't touch a dragon, but two dozen alchemists at level 10 with a redied action can totally kill a lv 20 draggy on a flyby if that flyby, at any point, brings him within 100 ft of each of them. That, my friend, is what I find interesting. If the dragon uses the wrong tactic because of sheer ignorance, he can lose to a group 10 levels below him.
Not true. He can easily lose to 10 Wizards working together. I mean, they all just do Save Or Lose effects that don't allow SR (there are several, Cloudkill used with Maximize Rods comes to mind). And then again (because, y'know, surprise round). Even with +23 (and at only +13 on Reflex) his Save can fail (and doesn't even need to for the above combo to be deadly). Or hell, ten Cavaliers chugging Potions of True Strike, declaring Challenge, and charging with lances, or a million other possibilities. You get ten prepped, mid level people vs. almost anything by surprise they take it out, that's the way the game is designed. Alchemists are slightly simpler to envision than many, is all.
As far as invisibility....well...I dont think draggy had a quick counter to that...and I don't believe he sees invisible....but, the thing is....the lv 10 invisible creature really has no way to hurt a draggy much outside of a 20, even with bonuses...unless, of course, he has bombs!
The Dragon has draconic senses and access to See Invisibility, I was just making a point regarding a potentially broken ability because you lack the (relatively easy) counter. And a Rogue or Ninja with Greater Invisibility absolutely can butcher a creature that can't do anything about it.
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First, I actually use Herolab, which is officially licensed and all that other Jazz. And that spell wasn't there.
Please post the spell list from HeroLab (whose official-ness in this regard I'm not entirely clear on, but that's a side issue), and I promise you I can do a similar list of things the Dragon could do to avoid more than a round of this. And at least one of those spells is there, I'm sure, as the official CR 16 Green has Mirror Image.
I don't see it listed in Beastiery as well. Second, as I've established, even draggy cast it, Alchemist could use a different element.
I assume you mean Resist Energy? Yeah the Green doesn't have it, but the Red, White and Blue Dragons do, and the Black has Darkness and Invisibility and explicitly uses ambush tactics.
And by switching energy the Alchemist gets one more round of damage before the annoyed Dragon casts it again. He can't have every element (well, he could, but he probably doesn't, and the Dragon's already immune to acid anyway).
Third, as I've said in the beginning, Draggy was never in any danger of dying during the encounter. And while we've sparred about particular situations which might be adventagous for one alchemist within a party to get a leg up on a much higher CR Draggy, I never once indicated that the alchemist in that party would get the Draggy before the Draggy took it out with one of it's many weapons.
Right, but that's the thing. The dragon can do so in an action. You're acting like the ability to severely injure (but not kill) a being that can annihalte you with a thought is a good thing. Such an offense with no equivalent defense makes you the prime target, not a position you want to be in.
I have implied that a team of alchemists could take down a draggy before it attacks them if it is silly enough to get close enough without the proper approach (either long distance attacks, or proper magic buffing), whereas, the draggy has to do take NO such precautions when attacking any other CR -10 to CR -7 humanoids. Because they are like ants to him...a total and utter non threat. In five rounds of combat against a party of six, the Draggy did not take ONE hit or spell from any party member except the alchemist. If allowed to continue with full attacks, the Alchemist could have taken him down in 4 turns. A party of FIVE other characters of all different classes couldn't even scratch him.
The Dragon was a fool. He neglected to counter one of the enemies against him. It's not quite as bad as staying in melee with a party of dedicated melee characters, or allowing the wizard toi keep casting at you, but it's still the same variety of mistake, just not as bad. The same could've happened with any character he wasn't prepared against...it just happened to be the Alchemist this time.
I agree with the OP (although I haven't read the whole thread), Alchemists are beyond banned at my table for exactly the reasons suggested - they turn the most dangerous monsters in the bestiary into bomb-fodder and distort the game into (for the party) protect the alchemist and (for the ref) frag the alchemist. It isn't specifically that they're overpowered, (although I think they are), it's that the nature their overpoweredness means you have to re-think every encounter and write them with the alchemist in mind.
This is silly. Stop playing the dragon like he's an idiot. You can play the Tarrasque like an idiot and they'll figure out a way to take him, though it won't be as fast as this fight. If that dragon is taking so much damage from one target, ATTACK THE TARGET. You can't tell me that dragon has nothing it can do from 120' away to trash an alchemist. It's going to have summon monster VII, disintegrate, acid fog--oh yeah, and it can simply fly up in the air and drop boulders on him. If you're afraid of killing him, hand in your GM card. You're cheating the party out of their ability to suspend disbelief, and sooner or later they'll get bored with the lack of challenge.
If you're not willing to use the dragon's abilities, cross them off the stat block and lower the CR--you award XP for the danger a party faces, not what the sheet tells you.
Unless the dragon really is an idiot in-game, in which case carry on. And post what happens. It's entertaining. : D
I agree with the OP (although I haven't read the whole thread), Alchemists are beyond banned at my table for exactly the reasons suggested - they turn the most dangerous monsters in the bestiary into bomb-fodder and distort the game into (for the party) protect the alchemist and (for the ref) frag the alchemist. It isn't specifically that they're overpowered, (although I think they are), it's that the nature their overpoweredness means you have to re-think every encounter and write them with the alchemist in mind.
This hits the nail on the head.
If a dragon attacks a party of characters 7 levels lower, he doesn't HAVE to get fancy about tactics. None of them have a rat's chance in the land down under of hitting him. Many of counter posts are saying, "Stupid, play the Dragon THIS way. Make him do this! Have him cast this spell." Yet, against any other party of -7 level characters, he can do whatever the heck he wants because the others have a very low chance to even hit him him, much less do significant damage to him.
Am I missing something? (Alchemist Bombs)
If so better get the d8 and the splash weapon table out...
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This hits the nail on the head.
If a dragon attacks a party of characters 7 levels lower, he doesn't HAVE to get fancy about tactics. None of them have a rat's chance in the land down under of hitting him. Many of counter posts are saying, "Stupid, play the Dragon THIS way. Make him do this! Have him cast this spell." Yet, against any other party of -7 level characters, he can do whatever the heck he wants because the others have a very low chance to even hit him him, much less do significant damage to him.
I'm sorry but this is b!!##~*%.
A Dragon, at high CR, is primarily that CR as a caster. A 17th level Sorcerer (his equal in magic) is CR 16, only 4 less than he. All his physical abilities (while impressive) are only worth +4 CR. Maybe +5 if you consider his lack of Bloodline stuff.
Like any high level caster he must use his spells intelligently and effectively in order to stand a prayer against a prepared PC group. That's the way the game works, and complaining he needs to is as silly as complaining when the aforementioned 17th level Sorcerer (we'll say he's a Half-Orc with the Orc Blodline and has a ridiculous Strengh and a Falchion, so he's not a complete incompetent in melee) runs into melee with the 9th level Fighter sans most of his buff spells and gets seriously hurt. Which is the likely result of such an act by a straight Sorcerer.
Glutton - during the lower levels, he would miss often enough that this was a very real concern. At this level, he only misses (most of the time) on a natural 1. The only thing more sure than his bombs hitting are taxes and death (usually the enemy's, hahahah)
Dudemeister - The challenge I see is that the Alchemist shines against a lot more foes than anyone else. There's just not a lot of high touch AC. Only 5 out of 20 (counting dragons as just 1) monsters of CR 14 (Party is 13-14) have a touch AC high enough to where he would need more than a 1 on the dice to hit on his first attack. Only one of them would have given him more than a 25% miss chance. Even if he full rounds attack with rapid shot (not even getting into two weapon fighting) he can hit the vast majority of them with 1's on the dice on all attacks.
Deadman...I'm happy you think it's BS...but my group of experienced 13-14th level players would disagree with you. Again, they went 5 rounds with Big Green, and didn't land 1 debuff, spell or blow. That's what a 37 AC and 31 Spell resistance do for ya. (The best physical attacker needed at 12-16 depending on range on the dice just to hit on his main attack, and 20 on secondary attacks. The caster needed a 14 or so to beat SR and then there was the draggy's save. Now, I full admit that the fact that Draggy was flying at the time reduced the ability of the melee happy people to be fully effective (though the monk found a way to get on his back)...but the spell slinger's weren't under any undue constraint there. They just aim fire and ... oh, miss. And they DO get through SR, most of the time there's a darn saving throw.
But the alchemist? Aim, fire, hit. Aim, fire, hit. Granted, like you all say, once draggy gets hit once, he should totally change his target, etc., etc. But the fact is, that none of the other players were even tickling Draggy. He was killing off players left and right while all but the alchemist wailed off on him doing absolutely nothing. So, as you all point out, Dragons, no matter how powerful, have to change whatever tactic they would normally use (I love how the Adventure Paths give tactics that enemies usually use) to take care of the alchemist that's a larger glass cannon type threat than the rogue and mage... And it's not just Draggy...it's at least to the 75%-85% of mobs who have less than stellar touch AC. As far as players/NPC's go...only the has a touch AC that would make an alchemist miss more than once every 4 rounds. Even the rogue in the party has a 17 touch AC. The spell caster wished he had spells that worked 90% of the time vs. 85% of the monsters in the beastiery with such great effect.
And I like how you say 'prepared PC group.' You're probably right in saying that a prepare PC group can take down just about any baddie, given time, tools and tactical advantage. But, here, the party had NONE of that. Despite that, the alchemist was still a credible threat where as the other players were hopelessly unable to affect the creature. Had each of them had the bomb ability, draggy could have died had he made the simple tactical mistake of getting within 100' of the party...no special preparation needed.
I agree with the OP (although I haven't read the whole thread), Alchemists are beyond banned at my table for exactly the reasons suggested - they turn the most dangerous monsters in the bestiary into bomb-fodder and distort the game into (for the party) protect the alchemist and (for the ref) frag the alchemist. It isn't specifically that they're overpowered, (although I think they are), it's that the nature their overpoweredness means you have to re-think every encounter and write them with the alchemist in mind.This hits the nail on the head.
If a dragon attacks a party of characters 7 levels lower, he doesn't HAVE to get fancy about tactics. None of them have a rat's chance in the land down under of hitting him. Many of counter posts are saying, "Stupid, play the Dragon THIS way. Make him do this! Have him cast this spell." Yet, against any other party of -7 level characters, he can do whatever the heck he wants because the others have a very low chance to even hit him him, much less do significant damage to him.
In my saturday game we have both an Alchemist and a Gunslinger...it is my view that no class is overpowered unless the GM allows them to be. Sorry but a good GM can make any encounter challenging also this thread has pointed out time after time how you can get around the Alchemist's bombs. I treat this with the same grain of salt that I treat all of the "the summoner is OP" threads.
I get the feeling you've already made up your mind that the alchemist is broken, so there's little point in discussing it. Meanwhile, I'll likely throw an alchemist at my party at some point in the near future and they'll chop him to shreds.
I get the feeling you've already made up your mind that the alchemist is broken, so there's little point in discussing it. Meanwhile, I'll likely throw an alchemist at my party at some point in the near future and they'll chop him to shreds.
The Alchemist, Gunslinger, and Summoner are all strong classes but they are far from over powered.
Sorry but with the Alchemist you got to put him in situations where he has to use his bombs not just let him save them up then dump them all on your bbeg. Sorry but if you don't play the dragon like you should, highly intelligent, powerful, and tactical then don't cry when the Alchemist/Gunslinger/Paladin trashes them in one round. Dragons should have Minions, traps, they should have control over the terrain in their lair and they always have an escape route. If you play them like brain dead ogres the party will slaughter them.
Realm, I appreciate the sentiment...but really, I like to RP my monsters and enemy NPCs. That means, unless they received a tip, or saw the party in action, they don't know and prepare for the alchemist specifically in advance. And that scenario happens more times than not. And, yeah, there are some encounters with just plain stupid (yet powerful) creatures.
If you're going to run enemy alchemist, put a couple in a party of balanced enemy NPCs of near the same CR as the party. It's really a lot of fun. Using the right feats, they have can have five attacks that easily hit 4 out of the five on just about everyone save for a monk or a caster that's prepared specifically for them ahead of time. At level 13 it averages about to 120 pts for each alchemist, and as an extra bonus, they get expanded splash damage or secondary effects that's just a tad smaller than a fireball (And extra 22-44pts on others...not huge, but it adds up) It's awesome.
Blahpers....I wouldn't say it's broken, par se. I just that that in order to keep the alchemist from outshining other class, the DM has to work harder than he does with other classes that typically get a little out of control at higher levels. I don't believe PF is 'perfectly balanced,' and I'm glad its not! (Otherwise, I'd play 4th edition). I like the fact that some classes shine in certain situations/vs. certain mobs more than others. The thing is, the alchmist with bombs just shines more consistantly than other classes if the DM doesn't address that directly (which feels meta to me...I don't like setting up my encounters / adventures specifically around the strengths and weaknesses of the party...I like to put CR appropriate encounters and let the party solve them however the see fit, balanced or no). It's not huge, and its not broken. Bent, but not broken. Yeah. I like that. And for those DM's who regularly script their encounters around their parties, it is VERY easily addressed. For those who like to write everything out ahead of time, or use AP's and RP their monsters/baddies based on what that baddie would know ahead of time (Or not know), well, it just becomes something to keep an eye on. I think DM's like us have to bend our own rules a bit to address than bendiness of this class.
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Dude you handed the alchemist the best possible situation for what he does. It's like having the dragon march right up to the two handed weapon focused fighter and then being surprised when the fighter cleans his clock.
I'm reminded of the line from the black dragon that stomped on V, "Lets see what happens when I cast anti-magic shell. Hm... fascinating, you stop being an all power wizard while I? I am still a dragon."
But my point is, Abraham, is that when this draggy got close to the two handed fighter (and had a monk on his back), they didn't hit at all because he was +7 levels above them. He was also in perfect range for spells, but they couldn't get through his SR. Only the alchemist could readily, reliably and significantly damage the dragon.
Now, if the alchemist was designed for totally pwning a sub class of monsters (dragons, large, creatures, whatever) and this was just a perfect time for him to shine, fine. But, the reality is that, unlike the paladin who shines against evil creatures, or the cleric against undead...the alchemist shines against all of this (and even does a better job) and so much more since his bombs ignore every form of defense except touch AC and elemental resistances (assuming they have the right, multiple types of elemental resistances).
No other class can so reliably take down such a high variety of BBEGs so quickly as an alchemist with bombs in the pocket. As I mentioned, less than 25% of monsters of their CR have an AC that would need higher than a 1. Only 1 mob has an AC that would make him miss more than 25%. Meanwhile, the caster who took feats specifically to tear through Spell Resistance still has a 30% chance to instantly fail against against the 50-60% BBEGs who do have spell resistance, and then he/she has to hope for a failed save.
It's not broken, but as everyone points out above, it takes a DM being proactive to keep it from possibly making other players feel iike Alchemist supporters/protectors during BBEG fights.
Yes it has been proven that as you level, touch AC's and reflex saves become lower. There's a graph with a bell curve somewhere on the internets tubes. If you let an alchemist stand 30 feet away and rain bombs, yes it is going to have the most reliable delivery system for damage in the game. If you run your game in such a way this happens regularly, yes things will get ruined. My alchemist has issues with (in no order): grapple, range, will saves, miss chances, grapple, low defenses, energy resistances, grapple, dealing high damage more than a few times a day, feelings of spell casting inadequacies, grapple, and attacks of opportunity from being in threatened squares.
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But my point is, Abraham, is that when this draggy got close to the two handed fighter (and had a monk on his back), they didn't hit at all because he was +7 levels above them. He was also in perfect range for spells, but they couldn't get through his SR. Only the alchemist could readily, reliably and significantly damage the dragon.
The first Pathfinder game I ever played, in the first session (a con game with 10th level characters, loads of fun), we were atacked by a Dire Tiger as a random encounter. A vicious creature, to be sure. Our Cleric had the Charm Domain, and thus Charm Monster. The fight lasted less than a round and the Cleric proceeded to ride the creature for the rest of the game (we named it Hobbes, I think). Apparently the previous party got savaged pretty badly by it (despite the wimpy CR...all brand new players remember). This didn't mean that the rest of us were useless. It wouldn't have meant that even if the Tiger had DR 20/- and was nearly unstoppable, what it meant was that everything has a weakness. Even Dragons.
And nobody's saying the Alchemist shouldn't have gotten off one round of attacks, but two? With not even the Dragon's simplest protection spells up (every PC with Mirror Image would cast it under these circumatances)? That's just stupidity on the dragon's part.
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We could solve a lot of these threads (my party killed the dragon what?!) if Pathfinder dragons were made considerably more powerful somehow. But I guess then we'd have GMs complaining about PC classes up against Balors or Pit Fiends instead...
High level Dragons are extraordinarily powerful. People just play them as melee monsters, which isn't where their power lies. They are casters.
Play one like you would a high level Sorcerer who just happens to also be good in melee (instead of a melee combatant that has a bunch of spells it never uses) and you'll do vastly better.
Lmao....for the 18thtime...the dragon was not losing nor was going to. And I was playing as a flying caster....the only time the alchemist even got a hit was when draggy flew in close enough to breathe . This has never been about the dragon doing bad...it's about the one class that was doing some noticable damage when no one else could do a thing even when they had clear opportunities.
The point is that no one else could touch draggy because they were grossly outmatched....except the alchy...who hit on every single attack.
My original point is that...no other weapon or spell is so incredibly reliable at doing such high damage on just such a high percentage of mobs and npcs. Obviously there are easy ways to counter if the mob knows what is coming and has the tools. That can be said for any class or mob. But outside of that...in straight up contests, the bombs totally beat spells and melee because innate defense (touch ac and multiple elemental resistances) are in very short supply at higher levels.
Ever DM some 3.5 and run into low level wizards one shotting any CR dragon with no SR dex damage touch attacks?
If a dragon attacks a party of characters 7 levels lower, he doesn't HAVE to get fancy about tactics.
This, right here, is the crux of this entire argument.
Saying the dragon doesn't have to get fancy about his tactics is like going on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire and, when the very first question is one you don't know the answer to, you say, "It's only the first question. I don't need to use a lifeline" and then taking a blind 25% chance at getting the right answer. Or, it's like taking a test and saying, "I know this subject well. I don't need to study at all." Even if you know the subject well, if you get asked a question you don't know the answer to, it doesn't matter how much you know the subject- you still don't know the answer, and you would have if you had studied.
You have proven, proven, PROVEN that the dragon DOES need to use fancy tactics against an alchemist. It's arguable whether the dragon needs to use fancy tactics against anyone else, but YOU set the stumbling block ahead of yourself when you took the stance I quoted above. A dragon with Int 20 who decides he doesn't need to use fancy tactics against an unknown target is no longer an Int 20 dragon, it's a dead dragon. Maybe not in every case, but assuming that you're all-powerful and nobody is a threat to you is not a way to live to be 1500 years old.
Oh, and that party of alchemists you keep bringing up? Good job getting that party of alchemists through the dungeon without 1. bringing along a meat shield/cleric/trapfinder/arcane caster, and 2. without using up any of your bombs on random encounters before you even reach the dragon. Anybody can kill anything in a vacuum. You've presented an impossible (or at least highly improbable) "dream party" and you keep using that as an example in an imaginary scenario that would never actually happen. Heck, by that logic, a party of 10,000 first-level commoners could kill a surprised dragon in one round too. Does that mean commoners are broken?