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OK, Dice. We all use them. Well, except for maybe the online gamers.
As a GM I see a lot of dice infractions that, for the most part, I'm sure are completely unintentional. Still, nobody likes to be the bad guy and these dice disses put the GM in the awkward position of just letting them slide or making a fuss so that proper dice respect is observed.
So here are some suggestions on proper dice etiquette for PFS:
1. The GM is above the law. It is the GM's table and the players are either willing to trust the GM's rolls or they shouldn't be playing at that GM's table.
2. If the players are not willing to accept #1 and the GM is cool with it, then the GM should follow these suggestions as much as the players do. However, #1 is assumed unless otherwise discussed at the table.
3. Dice must be readable from across the table. This includes:
3a. No micro dice.
3b. No swirly dice where the numbers are not easy to read.
3c. No dice with extra graphics that hide the numbers.
3d. No clear dice without numbers filled in with a contrasting color.
3e. No dice with a logo where the '1' (or any other number) belongs.
3f. No dice that the player has to pick up in order to read the number.
I'm sure there are other additions to #3. Feel free to add more.
4. All dice rolls are made in the open, in full view of the GM.
4a. No rolling behind your books.
4b. No rolling in a box or tray that the GM can not observe.
4c. No rolling across the table to a spot behind another player's books.
4d. No rolling off of the table onto the floor and having another player confirm your roll (because it was a good one). On the table or it doesn't count.
5. Dice must come to a rest and not be touched for at least 3 seconds or until the final number is determined and told to the GM. In other words, no rolling and picking up the die to read it before it comes to rest.
6. Dice may not be thrown into the air above the player's head. It is a dice roll, not a dice toss.
7. Dice may not be tossed across the table beyond the reach of the roller requiring others to return the dice.
8. Dice may not be rolled into the middle of the battlemat taking out mini's in the process.
9. No rolling with an App on your laptop, tablet, phone, etc. The exception is online play of course.
10. Dice will be rolled. Not spun, not dropped, not flipped, not shaken in the hand and then slammed down onto the table. The use of a dice cup is acceptable, but only if the die is allowed to visibly roll for at least 4 inches across the table.
11. Cheat dice are grounds for ejection from a PFS game.
11a. No dice with the high number in place of the '1'.
11b. No cooked dice.
11c. No lacquered dice.
11d. No fixed dice of any kind.
12. Consider replacing your 4-sided pyramid dice with the "barrel" style 4-siders. They hurt much less when you step on them barefoot.
13. It is perfectly acceptable to commiserate on how bad your luck is when rolling dice. It is not acceptable to throw those dice away at such speed that they are capable of achieving a low earth orbit. A gentle toss into a nearby trash can is acceptable, but consider recycling them as a green alternative.
14. Never leave dice in the middle of the battlemat after rolling them.
15. Do not use dice as a substitute for a mini or to indicate a special condition (like flight) or a spell effect. Dice work hard for you and deserve more respect.
16, Do not bring every dice you own to the table and spread them all out in front of you. The ones you actually use are special and deserve a little space. Don't coup them up with all the dice you own. Give them their time of glory at the table. Make your other dice covet a spot "at the table". If any of your all-stars fail to perform, send them back to the minors and give some other dice a chance to sit at the table.
Anyone else have any suggestions on Dice Etiquette?
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I personally disagree with
3. Dice must be readable from across the table. This includes:
3a. No micro dice.
3c. No dice with extra graphics that hide the numbers.
I *really* like my set of elvish dice (not weighted. Just *bloody* lucky). I also like my set of small copper dice. Easy to transport, durable, and good looking. I'm fine with the rest of it (well, I also like my caltrop d4s. Easy to use and read). The rest of it, yup!
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(well, I also like my caltrop d4s. Easy to use and read). The rest of it, yup!
Are you sure? They are hard to roll adequately. The numbers are hard to read, or at least unusual to read. I am in general not a huge fan of the barrel shaped dice and instead I use the 12 sided dice that are numbered from 1-4. I have also seen, but don't own, 8 sided dice that are set up this way too.
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For 20-siders: Make sure you keep your spin-down dice with your MtG stuff, and don't mix them in with your RPG dice.
And, of course, definitely keep your Formula D dice in your Formula D box, don't mix them in with your RPG dice.
On dice going off the table (this is something that was used by a local person, until several GMs banned him from their tables, for this and other issues), don't "roll" a replacement die while everyone is picking up the fallen die. At some point, you WILL get caught.
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3a. No micro dice.
3c. No dice with extra graphics that hide the numbers.
There is nothing that drives me crazier *Ok there is plenty that does ;)* then unreadable dice.
Q-Workshop dice are the worse of the bunch, I have told players who sat at my table to change them out with others I can read, or borrow some of mine...
grrrrr.
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Anyone else have any suggestions on Dice Etiquette?
I got one..
Dice don't need to pick up speed, if you are shaking the dice more then twice in your hand your...well lets just say we have a name for it..
Just pick up the dice and roll them!! ;)
Dice Cups lead to this problem as well, which is one reason I don't like them.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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3e. No dice with a logo where the '1' (or any other number) belongs.
That's getting just a little too picky, if you ask me.
Until somebody walked off with it at a recent game I had such a d6 that was a souvenir of a gaming group I played in 25 years ago (it was given to me by the DM when I left the group). I'm not happy that I lost it (although I'm sure it was accidental, not deliberate theft); I certainly would not have taken kindly a suggestion from a GM that this die was unacceptable just because it had something other than a single dot in the middle of one face. It was unambiguous, and easy to read.
I'd go for a simpler set of rules:
1. All dice rolls are made in the open, in full view of the GM.
2. Dice should be clearly legible from across the table.
3. Dice are not to be picked up until the GM has acknowledged the roll.
4. The GM may require a re-roll for any reason.
If you think I'm trying to cheat (by calling the roll a '6' instead of a '1', say), rule 3 will take care of that pretty quickly.
Rule 4 would allow the GM to exclude dice that had multiple strange symbols (or anything that required a crib sheet to interpret), although personally I would only do that if I already had reason to mistrust the player.
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I think that most of the things under rule 3 are unnecessary. When I am DMing and there is reason to need verification of a die roll I usually just ask the guy next to the roller to tell me what the dice say., either that or once in a blue moon walk around the table to look.
It would to me, at least, immediately create a kinds hostile enviroment if I were to walk into a session and the DM were to say "You can't use that die...or that one...or that one...or that one because I think that you are going to try to cheat." The last thing that we need is Player-DM hostility starting with the DM now.
Also, about rule 15. The the tens die of a d% next to your character is the way that I have always marked the flying elevation of my character. What other system do you use?
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Hmm... can't say I can comply with number 10.
At least, my good old reliable caltrop type d4s don't exactly roll well. (As I usually roll my dice in an upwards backspin toss, I still have little possibilities of cheating...)
This having been said:
17: If you are using differently colored d10 for percentile rolls (rather than using one with the two digit numbers), make sure the GM knows which die is for the 10s, unless you want him to choose after your roll, in your disfavor.
18: For all that is holy; If you have to roll a high number of dice, roll several of them at once. While it is perfectly okay to roll 6d6 twice for achieving 12d6, rolling 1d6 twelve times is not. Bonus points for single rolling if you keep commenting on every single toss, encouraging your die to keep up the good work, occasionally kissing it. (I wish I were making this one up).
19: Rolling a number of dice, not simultaneously, but once at a time, 'accidentally' knocking bad numbers over with following dice, will be considered cheating.
I trust my players and they trust me, so I don't really care if I can see the dice or not and I don't mind if they use dice apps. They can just tell me what they get and I'll accept it. I think most of us are old enough to behave responsibly by now.
I would ask players not to leave dice on the battle mat, not to hit the minis when rolling them, and to roll them reasonably swiftly (ie don't blow on them, kiss them or shake them continuously until I lose the will to live). Just pick them up and throw them.
I also get annoyed by people telling me as a player to throw the d20 and damage dice at the same time. I don't like doing it and the extra two seconds it takes to roll the damage dice separately is nothing time-wise. Admittedly if I picked up the damage dice, kissed them, blew on them, and then shook them continuously for 20 minutes I might understand the request... :-)
Cheaters gonna cheat.
These rules penalize honest players with cool dice, people trying to save time and play fast, people trying to be comfortable, people who believe in specific rolling rituals for luck, people who like using electronic devices (yes there's no "true random", but dice aren't either, unless they're perfect, which virtually none are) etc..
Dice don't cheat, players cheat.
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12. Consider replacing your 4-sided pyramid dice with the "barrel" style 4-siders. They hurt much less when you step on them barefoot.
Blasphemer! Suffer for your art.
Also you can spread them out around the hotel freezer to keep people away from your hoard
I don't really like'/trust the barrel dice.
Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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TBH I have a set of mini metal dice I keep in a tin in my PFS folder along with some counters, a battle map and a pen. Allowing me to run a game at a drop of a hat. I also,have some old TSR D6s with "TSR" replacing the 6. I don't always manage to get my dice to stop where I intended, despite 30 years of practice! I even have some pretty dice that are not as easy to read in less than optimal lighting conditions than some other, plain ones.
I do feel with all respect , that the list of rules is an example of over codification. In a game where dice are so central a GM has the right to ask a player to change the ones being used or the way they are being used if either are making their job harder. It surely is something to be done on a case by case basis.
W
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Back when I played with a regular group all through high school, we had just one house rule for dice that eliminated any possibility of cheating, and we used it for everything from board games to RPGs: Everyone had to roll the dice in a game box top that was centralized so everyone could reach it to roll and see the results. The only exception was secret DM rolls, but standard battle rolls by the DM weren't a secret - only stuff like wandering monsters, surprise, etc where the DM was intentionally keeping secrets from the PCs to avoid metagaming.
I agree that the above list is too detailed, and there are a couple of rules on it I disagree with.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I don't have as much a problem with 'logo dice' as long as I know what the logos represent.
I have a complete set of Crystal Castle's "d'oh" dice, where the ones are replaced with d'oh. I use them when I GM (the only time they roll well) Elsewise I use Koplow dice (the only dice that like me. I need my "bardsavers" for when I get to play my bard now.) Plus, I roll in the open when I GM, and the d'oh often brings a sigh of relief.
I'd add from a GM/DM POV, bring a rolling tray. In a 'round table' situation, it can make life easier for everyone since a) dice are less likely to fly off the table and b) it can covertly reduce dice abuse by having everyone roll in the tray if it's easily reachable. "No Bill, I don't think you cheat. Everyone rolls in the tray."
As long as it's not disruptive, don't mess with other people's superstitions. This weekend, I had my dice sitting in my tray (long table, so I couldn't centre it). My niece reached to scoop out my dice and I told her it's not good ettiquette to touch other people's dice w/o asking.
Also be respectful of the ages at the table.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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3. Dice must be readable from across the table. This includes:
3e. No dice with a logo where the '1' (or any other number) belongs.
That seems a bit unnecessary. I have a couple of MtG spindowns I like, plus a souvenir d6 from Con of the North. If it lands on the logo and I say it's a 1 or a 20 or whatever, I can always verify by showing you the other numbers if you really want me to. It's not like I can claim the Con of the North logo is the 6 and then tell you that the actual 6 is really the 1 or something.
12. Consider replacing your 4-sided pyramid dice with the "barrel" style 4-siders. They hurt much less when you step on them barefoot.
Why are you barefoot at the convention/game day? And why are you stomping around by my chair while I'm looking for my fallen dice? Honestly, how did this one even come up?
For 20-siders: Make sure you keep your spin-down dice with your MtG stuff, and don't mix them in with your RPG dice.
Why?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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@Jiggy,
It's my understanding that the spindown dice can be thrown in such a way to increase the likelyhood of high or low numbers. *shrug*
And it would be incredibly freaking obvious (more obvious than, say, doing the same thing with a typical d4). I fail to see the issue.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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That's what my shrug was for I dunno.
Weirdest thing once when I was gaming a home game. Guy was rolling phenominally well, so much that we thought he had to be cheating. Then to prove it, he borrows my d20 and starts doing the same thing. Either he had a lot of ranks in slight of hand, or he was just that lucky.
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For me it is not about catching our stopping cheaters it is about a few other things...
Dice Trays - They take up precious space on small Convention tables and are not needed. Tables are cramped enough already.
Dice Cups - People with Dice cups have a tendency to take too long to roll their dice and are wasting time, same with the person who just takes to long to roll a die without a cup.
Unreadable (Q-Workshop) Dice - I like reading the dice roll, I usually know before the player if the roll is a success, and trying to read those dice just hurt my Eyes, please don't hurt the GMs eyes... ;)
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What's wrong with dice rolling Apps?
The numbers are big and readable, all the way from across a table, and often time savers for multi-dice rolling.
Here is my problem with them... how do I know that you haven't messed with the programming of the app to change the random generator? Yes, it could be considered a far-fetched reason ... but most of the arguements on here are based on far-fetched reasons lol.
I have a bigger problem with laptops at the gaming table.. but that's for another thread someday
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Heh, I actually really like it when someone has a tablet set up in front of them. It usually replaces a character sheet, pile of dice, books, papers/notes, etc. Takes up so little space.
I can understand the dice rolling concern, but I sure don't mind the rest.
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Heh, I actually really like it when someone has a tablet set up in front of them. It usually replaces a character sheet, pile of dice, books, papers/notes, etc. Takes up so little space.
Off topic
I find Tablets to be ok, their footprint is small compared to laptops and they have a much longer battery Life. Though I still don't find them useful for Character sheets, they are difficult to keep notes on your character sheet, and slower than a piece of paper.
Laptops take up way too much space, and it seems like every time I have player who I relying on one, the battery will die in the middle of the game.
Laptops are a very poor choice for a traveling gamer to rely on.
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Heh, I actually really like it when someone has a tablet set up in front of them. It usually replaces a character sheet, pile of dice, books, papers/notes, etc. Takes up so little space.
I can understand the dice rolling concern, but I sure don't mind the rest.
I'm good with a tablet for the character sheet and books -- in fact I'll have one when I go to Neoncon... I don't like bulky laptops that hide the player from me.. and I don't like dice rolling apps that can be played with to change them.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Laptops take up way too much space, and it seems like every time I have player who I relying on one, the battery will die in the middle of the game.
Laptops are a very poor choice for a traveling gamer to rely on.
Around here, laptop users bring the cord.
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I have one of those convertible tablet laptops, and I use it in tablet mode while playing. It lets me bring up the SRD, any PDF's I need, Herolab if I am playing PFS, and music to punctuate my actions. I'm with Jiggy, I can't understand the antipathy that some DMs have for electronics at the game table.
I never use electronic dice rollers, because where is the fun in that. One of the best parts of the game is when you get a chance to "make it rain" d6s.
Around here, laptop users bring the cord.
...which, true to Murphy's Law, tends to be about 3 inches too short to reach to the nearest wall socket :(
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Around here, laptop users bring the cord.
Almost every convention I have been to do not have a place to plug into near the table, and there is nothing more annoying *ok maybe there is* then tripping on someone extension cord that is strong across the convention floor.
For local games I find them more annoying for people who use them for character sheets *Too slow and can't keep good notes* and table footprint.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Around here, laptop users bring the cord.Almost every convention I have been to do not have a place to plug into near the table, and there is nothing more annoying *ok maybe there is* then tripping on someone extension cord that is strong across the convention floor.
For local games I find them more annoying for people who use them for character sheets *Too slow and can't keep good notes* and table footprint.
Ah, okay, I can't really speak to conventions. I've only been to one, and the space was comparable to a local game day. At game days, the few players with laptops just make sure to take the seat closest to the nearest plug, and no one has to walk across it. But yeah, if you're in some sort of huge convention hall, it becomes an issue I suppose.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hmm, re laptops, I use my mini (sorry, no Tablet) and keep track of Rey on herolab, but I *also* keep a dead tree version. (and have two batteries for the mini. When I'm playing I might multitask, but I function that way as a default. IT is also nice to have all the rule books handy. I don't use dice programs nor would I want others to. I'm old fashioned enough I want dice clattering.
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Hmm, re laptops, I use my mini (sorry, no Tablet) and keep track of Rey on herolab, but I *also* keep a dead tree version. (and have two batteries for the mini. When I'm playing I might multitask, but I function that way as a default. IT is also nice to have all the rule books handy. I don't use dice programs nor would I want others to. I'm old fashioned enough I want dice clattering.
My to large issues with laptops ... and this includes mini laptop/notebooks
People generally don't pay attention to the game, because they're on the paizo site, on facebook, screwing with their character, etc. I'm sure there are those that can handle the handy computer and maintain attention on the game, but my experience is that people can't do it.
tablets are a little harder to surf with while gaming and getting it "secret" from the GM
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If you have been GM'ing for any amount of time, you have run into people who cheat at their die rolls. I've seen a number of these myself over the years and recently since starting PFSOP I have seen it a couple of times. The last incident, I was GM'ing and warned the player verbally at the table to stop it and now I wish I hadn't... I wish I had stopped the game for a "break" and talked to the player directly, but aside from the table.
While putting someone publicly "on the spot" makes the other players aware of what is going on, it doesn't give the cheating player a chance to stop without it becoming public knowledge... also, in the midst of combat, a player is pretty emotionally charged and adding to that by public accusation can result in an explosion/outburst.
In my case, the player simply, vehemently denied he was doing such a thing. For a while afterwards, he played normally but resumed cheating again not more than 30 minutes later. He wasn't invited back for the next session.
Do any other GMs have solid accounts of how they have handled people abusing dice in the past? Does how you handle it depend on the venue (convention versus flgs versus home game)? Do you confront them at that moment, at a break privately, or after the game?
WJ
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And to add to the laptop/tablet issue... most of my books are on my iPad, so I use it all the time at the table and don't surf or use it for die rolling or character sheets. I don't mind other e-readers at the table and will tolerate the occasional laptop- but as a GM I really hate it when a giant laptop is hogging table-space.
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Here are two more rules - lost track what the numbers should be.
xx1) Dice are for rolling them and not for building towers with them. Don't stack up piles of dice in front of you. They will collapse eventually and drive others at the table mad.
xx2) Have one set of dice ready and don't place them back into your dice bag after each roll.
Yes - these are two behaviours I've seen from my kids (one each). The 'dice towers' did drive a fellow GM nearly mad. And the place the dice into the bag again and searching for it is a pet peeve of mine if it takes half a minute each roll extra.
To everyone who objects against any of the rules. I'm sure they will never make it into the PFS rules. But thanks for Don to do the post. I think it helps when people think that what they do might offend others.
This is the first step towards a better atmosphere at the table.
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Do not bring every dice you own to the table and spread them all out in front of you.
Good gravy, yes (and this goes for GMs, too). If you need more than two complete sets of dice for a game -- plus perhaps some extra d4s or d6s if you're a spellcaster lobbing Magic Missiles or Fireballs, and maybe a few d20s to swap out if you're feeling like one is "unlucky" -- you have some real issues with dice.
As has been mentioned upthread, space at a con table is already often tight, and the player who's taking up tons of real estate with 50 dice isn't helping.
When I'm playing a character, I figure out which dice types I'll need for my attacks, take out an extra d20, plus a d8 in case (for rolling taps from my CLW wand), and that's it.
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Do not bring every dice you own to the table and spread them all out in front of you.Good gravy, yes (and this goes for GMs, too). If you need more than two complete sets of dice for a game -- plus perhaps some extra d4s or d6s if you're a spellcaster lobbing Magic Missiles or Fireballs, and maybe a few d20s to swap out if you're feeling like one is "unlucky" -- you have some real issues with dice.
As has been mentioned upthread, space at a con table is already often tight, and the player who's taking up tons of real estate with 50 dice isn't helping.
When I'm playing a character, I figure out which dice types I'll need for my attacks, take out an extra d20, plus a d8 in case (for rolling taps from my CLW wand), and that's it.
For me this is where my dice rolling tray has started to come in handy ... I keep my dice (approximately 3 sets) plus a few additional d20s and random die, as well as a block of mini d6... since the tray still fits in its' box, I can also throw the writing utencils that I'll need into it and it's handy .. double purpose; in additional to keeping my dice from flying all over the place
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3e. No dice with a logo where the '1' (or any other number) belongs.
I can't believe The Official Paizo Die is not acceptable.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I'll admit I bring my 17" laptop to games. However I hardly ever have it on the table. I bring it because I only have two "real" books, the rest of my stuff is pdfs. If I have power its plugged in and on, but I keep it next to me leaning against the wall/chair usually and only look at it when I need info or if we're taking a break.
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Hello Don,
I hope everything is going well up in Boston.
As for Dice Etiquette, I guess the only thing I really do, is that i encourage all the players at the table to roll towards the center of the table, and to roll so I can see the dice.
(if a D20 rolls over a mini, then if course there is room for a Indianna Jones joke)
I also encourage players to have legible dice that i can read. I plead bad eye sight.
Oh one other thing i am beginning to try, is to have players roll in a dice cup, for stealth and perception rolls. then, without looking in the cup, i ask them to pass it to me. This way I know what their rolls are, and They don't. I find it encourages "roll playing" instead of meta gaming.
Also it allows me to weave the dice rolls into the narrative......
so for example if they roll a 1 on a stealth check, I could describe that they are sneaking forward, and suddenly there is a loud crack, as their character stepped on a twig.....etc.
Or if they got a really good roll, i could describe how distracted the guards are, and mayby the player can "steal their pants".
I hope this helps
Myles
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Oh one other thing i am beginning to try, is to have players roll in a dice cup, for stealth and perception rolls. then, without looking in the cup, i ask them to pass it to me. This way I know what their rolls are, and They don't. I find it encourages "roll playing" instead of meta gaming.
Also it allows me to weave the dice rolls into the narrative......
so for example if they roll a 1 on a stealth check, I could describe that they are sneaking forward, and suddenly there is a loud crack, as their character stepped on a twig.....etc.
I'm so suggesting the dice cup idea next time I run.
I often do the same thing about die rolls, retroactively. Like if character A misses by one, and character B wildly misses "You know B's attack might have hit if he wasn't scrambling to avoid A's attack."