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You won't like my elvish dice for a whole separate reason if I'm ever your GM. Call em not random enough, or just plain lucky, but if they come out, the players who are wise are *afraid*.
Or buy some of those triumphantly ugly "Elven script" ones.
My Rise of the Runelords dice are lucky like that too. I had a player say one time he thought I was cheating. I let him watch me roll and then he never said anything about it again.
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3) Truth : I once went an entire Gen Con - 11 consecutive game slots -- without rolling a single successful attack roll or skill check. Not one. Anyone gonna tell me I can't throw my dice into the upper level of the Arena during this streak? Better do so from behind me and out of the line of fire. Speaking of fire, I lit some of them on fire.
You have to make sure to burn them in front of the other dice. Otherwise, it doesn't make an example of them and "encourage" them to roll better in the future.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My Rise of the Runelords dice are lucky like that too. I had a player say one time he thought I was cheating. I let him watch me roll and then he never said anything about it again.You won't like my elvish dice for a whole separate reason if I'm ever your GM. Call em not random enough, or just plain lucky, but if they come out, the players who are wise are *afraid*.
Or buy some of those triumphantly ugly "Elven script" ones.
I have a full 10 die set of RotRL dice, and they roll horrid for me. I might try them with Rey, since he's built around not rolling anyway :-)
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Nope, don't ever count on me seeing anything. Still don't know.
4) What the !@$% are spindowns?4) What the !@$% are spindowns?
With equal friendly sarcasm in return. :P
Your 55mm Koplow dice are spindown. Take a look at it. You'll see it.
A 'regular' D20 has all 10 pairs of opposite ends added together to be 21. So the 20 is exactly opposite the 1. The 19 is opposite the 2. 18 and 3. 17 and 4. So on. Done in this way, most high numbers are next to at least a low number and most low numbers are next to at least one high number.
A 'spin down' d20 will have the numbers in order as you spin it around in your hand. The 20 is next to the 19, which is next to 18, which is next to 17, and so on all the way down to the 1, which is still directly opposite the 20. Done in this way, all the high numbers will be on the 'top' half of the die and all the low numbers on the 'bottom' half.
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I have had to add; you can not use the count down die from Magic the Gathering game for your d20.How come?
Because all the higher numbers are on one side of the die, making them a little heavier on one side so went you roll them they usually stop on a higher number. You have a better chance of rolling a 16 or better with each roll of the die.
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Because all the higher numbers are on one side of the die, making them a little heavier on one side so went you roll them they usually stop on a higher number. You have a better chance of rolling a 16 or better with each roll of the die.I have had to add; you can not use the count down die from Magic the Gathering game for your d20.How come?
Hm...
So we've got one person saying they're weighted, someone else saying they're easy to deliberately roll toward a given number, and someone else saying they're vaguely "not randomized".
And yet, using my favorite MtG spindown, I keep rolling low numbers right along with high ones (and middle ones).
Experience is telling me that there's nothing wrong with my spindowns, and everybody who doesn't like them has a different reason than the last guy. I think I'm gonna have to write this one off as superstition/prejudice/paranoia/etc. (Though obviously if you're my GM I'll switch to a different d20 without a fuss.)
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Because all the higher numbers are on one side of the die, making them a little heavier on one side so went you roll them they usually stop on a higher number. You have a better chance of rolling a 16 or better with each roll of the die.I have had to add; you can not use the count down die from Magic the Gathering game for your d20.How come?Hm...
So we've got one person saying they're weighted, someone else saying they're easy to deliberately roll toward a given number, and someone else saying they're vaguely "not randomized".
And yet, using my favorite MtG spindown, I keep rolling low numbers right along with high ones (and middle ones).
Experience is telling me that there's nothing wrong with my spindowns, and everybody who doesn't like them has a different reason than the last guy. I think I'm gonna have to write this one off as superstition/prejudice/paranoia/etc. (Though obviously if you're my GM I'll switch to a different d20 without a fuss.)
A d20 is designed to have a fair amount of randomness. There's a reason why you roll a d20 to make checks instead of a d4. You want options from 1-20. Rolling a spindown is like flipping a glorified coin.
It is, genuinely, "less random." One side is good, the other bad. There's a bit of variation among the sides but for the most part, if you roll on the "good" side, you'll succeed. That's why people dislike them.
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A d20 is designed to have a fair amount of randomness. There's a reason why you roll a d20 to make checks instead of a d4. You want options from 1-20. Rolling a spindown is like flipping a glorified coin.
It is, genuinely, "less random." One side is good, the other bad. There's a bit of variation among the sides but for the most part, if you roll on the "good" side, you'll succeed. That's why people dislike them.
Your description doesn't actually hold up, Walter. If your bonus to a check is sufficient to make an 11-20 successful, then even a perfectly random d20 will be a "glorified coin flip" because there's a 50% chance of rolling a successful result. The only way that the arrangement of the numbers makes any difference is if you also have something to make the high side more likely (either uneven weighting or deliberate sleight of hand).
Without that, the arrangement of the numbers makes no difference whatsoever.
As for whether or not it really is weighted, that's another issue. I'd be willing to record my natural d20 results for a while, on the condition that someone actually wants to see them. Interested?
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A d20 is designed to have a fair amount of randomness. There's a reason why you roll a d20 to make checks instead of a d4. You want options from 1-20. Rolling a spindown is like flipping a glorified coin.
It is, genuinely, "less random." One side is good, the other bad. There's a bit of variation among the sides but for the most part, if you roll on the "good" side, you'll succeed. That's why people dislike them.
Your description doesn't actually hold up, Walter. If your bonus to a check is sufficient to make an 11-20 successful, then even a perfectly random d20 will be a "glorified coin flip" because there's a 50% chance of rolling a successful result. The only way that the arrangement of the numbers makes any difference is if you also have something to make the high side more likely (either uneven weighting or deliberate sleight of hand).
Without that, the arrangement of the numbers makes no difference whatsoever.
As for whether or not it really is weighted, that's another issue. I'd be willing to record my natural d20 results for a while, on the condition that someone actually wants to see them. Interested?
Imagine a spinning wheel with 20 segments, like one you would find on a game show (like Wheel of Fortune). Half of the total spaces are good to land on, the other half are bad to land on. Now imagine if those spaces are arranged, alternating good and bad. That's a normal d20. Now image those spaces are clumped, with one half of the circle being solid good and the other half being solid bad. That's how a spindown is.
See the issue?
EDIT: A bit rude of me. Let me tidy this up.
From a completely mathematical perspective, both are equal. There is the human factor, though, and people are going to try to spin that wheel to land on the better spots -- which is a lot easier if they are all next to each other. It's not even cheating when you try to do this from a genuine die roll (not plopping it three inches), in fact, everyone tries to roll high on their d20s. Mechanically, it's easier to do with spindowns which is why people find them unfair.
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See the issue?
Only if I aim.
See, if the die is not weighted and the roller is not "aiming", then the placement of the numbers becomes irrelevant.
Suppose instead of a numbered d20, we had one with letters. I secretly possess two sheets of paper, each of which has each letter corresponding to a number. One list results in a "normal" d20 while the other clumps the numbers like a spindown. You roll the die. Is the randomness of the roll affected by which list I use to determine the result?
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See the issue?Only if I aim.
See, if the die is not weighted and the roller is not "aiming", then the placement of the numbers becomes irrelevant.
Suppose instead of a numbered d20, we had one with letters. I secretly possess two sheets of paper, each of which has each letter corresponding to a number. One list results in a "normal" d20 while the other clumps the numbers like a spindown. You roll the die. Is the randomness of the roll affected by which list I use to determine the result?
See my edit, kind sir.
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EDIT: A bit rude of me.
I don't see how.
Let me tidy this up.
From a completely mathematical perspective, both are equal.
That would be what I was saying.
There is the human factor, though, and people are going to try to spin that wheel to land on the better spots -- which is a lot easier if they are all next to each other.
That would be the aiming/cheating I was talking about.
It's not even cheating when you try to do this from a genuine die roll (not plopping it three inches), in fact, everyone tries to roll high on their d20s. Mechanically, it's easier to do with spindowns which is why people find them unfair.
Wait, what? So you think everyone is putting effort into getting their d20s to land on the numbers they want? And you also think that doing so is not cheating as long as the d20 travels far enough? Am I understanding you right?
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I think everyone trys to roll a 20 every time. They don't drop their dice in a certain way to do it, but we all want it to happen. They try by swearing at their dice, sweet talking their dice, or switching to other dice when the current dice is 'cold.' That's what I meant by 'trying.' I was not accusing anyone of cheating. I am not encouraging or endorsing trying to set the dice a certain way. I am saying that when you roll the die, you are mentally wishing it to be a 20, or above a certain point.
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For myself, I would be more interested in trying to reduce the appearance of cheating. I don't what the guy I am just sitting next to in a game to look at me funny when I roll that 3rd 20 in a roll. So I teach myself to roll with big, easy to read dice. And I roll where everyone can see, and I leave them there on the table. And when I roll those 3 attack d20s at once, and everyone sees the 20,20,17 (or the 1,1,2) it's like sharing a box of candy. Everyone gets the thrill.
I agree on being open with all rolling. The shared experience is fun, and looking shady certainly isn't (hence why I'll gladly put away the spindown if anyone has a problem with it).
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I think everyone trys to roll a 20 every time. They don't drop their dice in a certain way to do it, but we all want it to happen. They try by swearing at their dice, sweet talking their dice, or switching to other dice when the current dice is 'cold.' That's what I meant by 'trying.' I was not accusing anyone of cheating. I am not encouraging or endorsing trying to set the dice a certain way. I am saying that when you roll the die, you are mentally wishing it to be a 20, or above a certain point.
In that case, I fail to see the connection to spindowns and fairness/randomness. Here's your earlier statement:
It's not even cheating when you try to do this from a genuine die roll (not plopping it three inches), in fact, everyone tries to roll high on their d20s. Mechanically, it's easier to do with spindowns which is why people find them unfair.
So if by "try" you meant "want", as you say, then we get this:
It's not even cheating when you [want] to do this from a genuine die roll (not plopping it three inches), in fact, everyone [wants] to roll high on their d20s. Mechanically, it's easier to do with spindowns which is why people find them unfair.
So... it's easier to want a high roll when you're using a spindown? Huh?
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Man, everything in life is circular.
You think people should separate the OOC knowledge of their die roll when they bomb a perception check on a trapped door.
I think we should just remove that possibility, and let GMs make some die rolls for the players.
You think people should be able to use a die that, while being as random as mine, is easier to cheat with, and we should all agree not to cheat with it.
I think that we should just not use those dice to remove the possibility.
It's all the same!!
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I think everyone trys to roll a 20 every time. They don't drop their dice in a certain way to do it, but we all want it to happen. They try by swearing at their dice, sweet talking their dice, or switching to other dice when the current dice is 'cold.' That's what I meant by 'trying.' I was not accusing anyone of cheating. I am not encouraging or endorsing trying to set the dice a certain way. I am saying that when you roll the die, you are mentally wishing it to be a 20, or above a certain point.In that case, I fail to see the connection to spindowns and fairness/randomness. Here's your earlier statement:
It's not even cheating when you try to do this from a genuine die roll (not plopping it three inches), in fact, everyone tries to roll high on their d20s. Mechanically, it's easier to do with spindowns which is why people find them unfair.So if by "try" you meant "want", as you say, then we get this:
It's not even cheating when you [want] to do this from a genuine die roll (not plopping it three inches), in fact, everyone [wants] to roll high on their d20s. Mechanically, it's easier to do with spindowns which is why people find them unfair.So... it's easier to want a high roll when you're using a spindown? Huh?
It's easier to get a high roll with a spindown because all the high numbers are clustered. When the die is rolling, and it flops that one final turn, it won't jump between success and failure. It will either jump between success and success, or failure and failure. But forget this. I'm terrible at arguing it seems.
New strat.
Using a spindown is different than using a standard d20 (in the placement of the numbers). You are playing a d20 game, not a spindown game. Use a d20.
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It's easier to get a high roll with a spindown because all the high numbers are clustered. When the die is rolling, and it flops that one final turn, it won't jump between success and failure. It will either jump between success and success, or failure and failure.
It also won't flop from failure to success. So that's still a wash.
Using a spindown is different than using a standard d20 (in the placement of the numbers). You are playing a d20 game, not a spindown game. Use a d20.
Haha, best argument yet! :)
Oh, missed your other post:
Man, everything in life is circular.
You think people should separate the OOC knowledge of their die roll when they bomb a perception check on a trapped door.
I think we should just remove that possibility, and let GMs make some die rolls for the players.
You think people should be able to use a die that, while being as random as mine, is easier to cheat with, and we should all agree not to cheat with it.
I think that we should just not use those dice to remove the possibility.
It's all the same!!
Nice observation! I guess maybe the difference between you and me is that you're "let's make a rule/guideline and be done with it" and I'm "let's guide the people toward not needing the rule"? Or something like that?
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Nice observation! I guess maybe the difference between you and me is that you're "let's make a rule/guideline and be done with it" and I'm "let's guide the people toward not needing the rule"? Or something like that?
I think we're both idealistically "let's guide people toward not needing the rule" but I'm more realistic with "people are inherently flawed, so lets make some things simpler to prevent in game arguments"
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Using a spindown is different than using a standard d20 (in the placement of the numbers). You are playing a d20 game, not a spindown game. Use a d20.Haha, best argument yet! :)
You should reply with: "In the CRB it states only that you need a dice with 20 sides, it never stipulates that the sides need to be appropriately spaced. Thus, spindowns are legal by the RAW."
To which I reply: "Weak."
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Using a spindown is different than using a standard d20 (in the placement of the numbers). You are playing a d20 game, not a spindown game. Use a d20.Haha, best argument yet! :)
You should reply with: "In the CRB it states only that you need a dice with 20 sides, it never stipulates that the sides need to be appropriately spaced. Thus, spindowns are legal by the RAW."
To which I reply: "Weak."
Pfft, if I was going for the "doesn't say they have to be equally spaced" angle, why would I settle for a spindown? Get a thick coin with a 20 on one side, a 19 on the other, and 1-18 around the rim! ;)
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I think we're both idealistically "let's guide people toward not needing the rule" but I'm more realistic with "people are inherently flawed, so lets make some things simpler to prevent in game arguments"
Nice observation! I guess maybe the difference between you and me is that you're "let's make a rule/guideline and be done with it" and I'm "let's guide the people toward not needing the rule"? Or something like that?
This just in: WalterGM is in favor of banning GM screens! ;)
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This just in: WalterGM is in favor of banning GM screens! ;)I think we're both idealistically "let's guide people toward not needing the rule" but I'm more realistic with "people are inherently flawed, so lets make some things simpler to prevent in game arguments"
Nice observation! I guess maybe the difference between you and me is that you're "let's make a rule/guideline and be done with it" and I'm "let's guide the people toward not needing the rule"? Or something like that?
This just in: WalterGM doesn't use GM screens ;)
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Walter, Jiggy, perhaps you can just agree to disagree. One of the nice things about gaming is that everyone brings their own style to the table. What a boring game it would be if everyone did things exactly the same. Sure, follow the rules, but bring your own style. Though this doesn't work without respect for the GM.
And I can vouch for Walter not using a GM screen.
Ooo, what a great idea for my next thread ...
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Walter, Jiggy, perhaps you can just agree to disagree. One of the nice things about gaming is that everyone brings their own style to the table. What a boring game it would be if everyone did things exactly the same. Sure, follow the rules, but bring your own style. Though this doesn't work without respect for the GM.
I can't agree to that! (jks)
Jiggy, you can use spindowns at my table anytime :P
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Personally, I think this is all pretty much an academic discussion anyway. I have never once, at a PFS table, in 27+ years of home gaming, or at even a Con, seen anyone ban dice from a table or even express discontent about a player using incorrect dice.
There's been plenty of swearing about bad rolls, cheering good ones, and LOTS of superstitious mumbo jumbo about them, but never once have I seen someone refuse to let someone play over their dice.
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Personally, I think this is all pretty much an academic discussion anyway. I have never once, at a PFS table, in 27+ years of home gaming, or at even a Con, seen anyone ban dice from a table or even express discontent about a player using incorrect dice. .
Use dice that are hard for me to read and hurt my eyes looking at them and you will see a GM ask you to use different dice.
I have asked a few peiople not to use Q-workshop dice at my table.
After explains to them their dice literally gives me eye strain they never complained about putting them away.
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Personally, I think this is all pretty much an academic discussion anyway. I have never once, at a PFS table, in 27+ years of home gaming, or at even a Con, seen anyone ban dice from a table or even express discontent about a player using incorrect dice. .Use dice that are hard for me to read and hurt my eyes looking at them and you will see a GM ask you to use different dice.
I have asked a few peiople not to use Q-workshop dice at my table.
After explains to them their dice literally gives me eye strain they never complained about putting them away.
In that case, I would agree to your stipulation, pack up my dice and sheet, and vacate the table. If you can't trust a player to let you know what is on the die, then you have a much bigger issue than interesting dice. At almost every table of PFS I have run, it has been impossible for me to be close enough to see the results of all players dice, nor do I feel a need to visually confirm what they say.
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If you can't trust a player to let you know what is on the die, then you have a much bigger issue that interesting dice.
If you would rather leave the table than switch dice at your GM's request, then the GM isn't the only one with bigger issues.
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If you can't trust a player to let you know what is on the die, then you have a much bigger issue that interesting dice.If you would rather leave the table than switch dice at your GM's request, then the GM isn't the only one with bigger issues.
The dice wouldn't be the reason, the lack of trust would be. If the GM doesn't trust me to accurately report my dice, will they not trust that I really do have a +3 BAB? Or a really good perception? Or a high AC? If I get the feeling the GM doesn't trust me, I'd rather avoid the frustration and inevitable conflict and not drag down the table.
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The dice wouldn't be the reason, the lack of trust would be. If the GM doesn't trust me to accurately report my dice, will they not trust that I really do have a +3 BAB? Or a really good perception? Or a high AC? If I get the feeling the GM doesn't trust me, I'd rather avoid the frustration and inevitable conflict and not drag down the table.
Instead you force the frustration on the event coordinator who now you expect to try to accomodate your decision to not play at the table and find you someplace else to sit.
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I find it interesting you went right to the assumption that I want to be Able to see what you roll because I don't trust you, which is not the reason why I want to see your dice.
I want to be able to see what you rolled so I know if you succeed. Vast majority of the time I know the die roll is a success before the player does, so being able to see the roll allows me to quickly work on my reaction to the roll, it has nothing to do with trust.
I find this a very reasonable request, and deffitnly not beyond the GMs Purview to be able to see what has been rolled.
If you still felt that way after all the explanation I have no issue with a player leaving my table, acting unreasonable to a reasonable request.
Edit: also some times if I am having problems reading a die, the player does to, so he wastes time trying to interpret what the die says. So I avoid that chance by asking them not to use them.
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Instead you force the frustration on the event coordinator who now you expect to try to accomodate your decision to not play at the table and find you someplace else to sit.
The dice wouldn't be the reason, the lack of trust would be. If the GM doesn't trust me to accurately report my dice, will they not trust that I really do have a +3 BAB? Or a really good perception? Or a high AC? If I get the feeling the GM doesn't trust me, I'd rather avoid the frustration and inevitable conflict and not drag down the table.
Oh, I wouldn't ask to be seated at another table. My choice, my responsibility to live with the results of my actions. Likewise, if the table was at 4 players and would not be run if I left, I would swap dice and deal with it.
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I have to admit, I'm not a fan of the "fancy" script dice. It's not that I don't trust someone, but more that I like to see the die rolls too. Being able to see the rolls, even if I don't check every time is a good way to establish trust. When you stand up from the table saying the GM doesn't trust you, that immediately makes the GM not trust you. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't, if you take that stance Alexander. A simpler, and less confrontational stance if a GM politely asks you to switch dice, is to do it and play on. No drama needed.
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Alex,
I guess I won't have the opportunity to judge for you at GenCon, which seems a pity because my requirement isn't "I can read your dice from over here" but "the person next to you could read it".
I'm just a cold war kid, Trust But Verify is in my bones.
I'm fine with that. If the dice can't be read by someone next you, they are too crazy. However, I really feel that it is a non-issue as to what dice people use. I've seen people use "fudge dice" for d3s, and I didn't bat an eye. Let em do what makes em happy at the table, as long as it follows the rules.
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"Fudge dice"?
Six sided die that either has a " - ", a blank " ", or a " + ". There are two of each, so - is used as 1, a blank as 2, and a + as 3. Most often used in the FATE system of RPG.
Or see the image here
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Personally, I could care less what dice you use and whether or not I can see them. I assume your neighbors will police each other if I can't see that far. And if not, congratulations, YOU WIN!
As has been said, cheaters gonna cheat, whether that be with the dice, fudging modifiers, gold, prestige, etc. I do not feel it is my job as the GM to police the nuances of a game we are volunteering to be part of.
My only request is that YOU need to be able to read your own dice without picking them up and leave them there, just in case a question comes up to how you succeeded on your action. Don't make it look like you're cheating.
As far as certain dice (spin-down, etc.) being legal or not, if you are going to be a dice nazi, then I suggest you as the GM, test a set of dice (maybe a theoretically perfect set of GameScience dice) for randomness using one of the multi-roll data systems and then require everyone at the table use that set. At least then you'll get consistency from player to player to GM. My only comment is don't be surprised when the players look at you like a douchebag and leave the table.
