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I think the main thing when dealing with this, is to explain that as GM it's my job to ensure a fair game, and so to do that, these are the accommodations I'd like to see at my table. I don't assume people are cheating, but I do notice when all of your rolls are above average, and at that point it is my *job* to check it out. Maybe you're just lucky, and if so, good for you. But a player who isn't cheating has the right to expect the GM will make everyone else play by the rules, too.
In my experience, cheaters gonna cheat, but they're also gonna try to not get caught, and that means using small or unreadable dice, rolling quickly or behind something, etc. If you're not cheating, why would you want to duplicate the methods of someone who is?
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Wow really? This is way overboard.
Simply, if someone's going to cheat, they're going to cheat. If you believe a particular player is cheating, then deal with that player. It's a little silly to make a ridiculously long list of "etiquette rules" that the 99% of players who don't cheat have to follow.
If a player is going to cheat, I'd imagine it would be easier (and safer) to fudge their bonus to the roll. This is the form of cheating I've seen most often, either blatant or a mathematical "error" that just happens to benefit the player. As DM (especially in a Society game) you're not going to have all their bonuses memorized.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The Disable Device makes sense for a secret check, as per the rules, but I disagree about the stealth. You can totally know that you f*@*ed something up as you do it.
Sometimes, yeah. You step on a twig, or kick a paint can. But sometimes not. And it's the GM's job to describe the situation.
It has been my repeated experience that players will announce a course of action, see the roll, and then shift their intentions accordingly. (They don't call it meta-gaming, of course. They call it adapting to circumstance.)
If I am playing an actual Tabletop RPG with real people, as opposed to a computer game, I want to roll my dice, not have arbitrary things calculated behind the screen because the DM doesn't trust me not to metagame.
If you really want to reach over the GM screen and roll your d20 Sense Motive check where I can see it and you can't, that's fine. But your character doesn't know how well she's reading someone's true intentions, and neither do you.
Because I know that you don't meta-game, but the kids sitting next to you do, and I don't want to be in a position where I have to make special rules for them.
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Dice Tray - some players actually need them... I have a personal rule. I will only pick up a players dice a single time during a game. Some of the most experienced players seam to loose dice with every roll.... Bouncing off the table, players hiding under chairs. I have seen players that drop allot of stuff, eyeglasses books miniatures....
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On the subject of electronic dice, I have only to say that random number generator algorithms aren't random.
Don, your list is starting to read like something out of the HackMaster Association rules...
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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On the subject of electronic dice, I have only to say that random number generator algorithms aren't random.
There's random enough for top-secret encryption purposes, and there's random enough to be better than the average set of dice found at the table.
If I wanted to cheat, I'd just buy myself a bunch of different dice and spend a weekend rolling each one a thousand or so times. That would let me pick out dice which rolled 20s more often than they should (or anything else I particularly wanted to select).
Unfortunately I believe my favourite d6s - some 16mm metal ones - aren't fair. They seem to roll a disproportionately large number of '1's (this is a serious observation, not a joke). I suspect this is because the pip on that face is much larger than the ones on the other faces, so the amount of metal removed is greater than even the amount removed from the '6', making them effectively into loaded dice :-(
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There's random enough for top-secret encryption purposes, and there's random enough to be better than the average set of dice found at the table.
I'll give you that, when properly implemented, they are sufficiently indistinguishable from truly random number generators that a human can't tell the difference. And, yes, I know that most of the dice we use aren't truly random either, due to manufacturing limitations.
If I wanted to cheat, ...
I wasn't implying any cheating intent, just that the method is not truly random.
Unfortunately I believe my favourite d6s - some 16mm metal ones - aren't fair.
My metal d20s seem to roll a disproportionate number of high numbers, but I don't have anything better than anecdotal evidence of such. You can ask the player whom I hit with 4 poison-bearing attacks in one round (with an attack modifier of +3) all about it.
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There are a number of dice rolls that can be kept secret since their result can influence meta-gaming actions. Too often I see the following and it's poor gameplay IMO...
player1, "I search for traps [rolling] nat 20!"
GM, "You search the area around the door and discover no danger."
player1, "excellent, I open the door"
player2, remains silent
vs.
player1, "I search for traps [rolling] crap, only an 8"
GM, "You search the area around the door and discover no danger."
player1, "oh well, I open..."
player2, "Wait! I search for traps"
GM, [eyeroll]
And even if there is no other trap specialist in the party, everyone bases their decisions on the die roll. That aggravates me. When I play my rogue, and there are no other rogues in the party, I decide what my action will be if there is no trap first, regardless of the die roll. Then, if the GM says I find no trap, I follow through. Sometimes, this could mean triggering a trap. I especially do this when its the 2nd, 3rd, or more trap I have searched for and no one questioned my results prior (often due to high results).
The same situation can happen with other types of rolls as well. Whenever someone in my party tries to use stealth, I try to perceive them. If I see them, I assume others can as well and shout a warning (situational). I rarely, if ever, have seen anyone else doing this until they see me do it. But I see players change their tactics all the time after having seen the player's stealth roll without as much as an attempted perception.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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There are a number of dice rolls that can be kept secret since their result can influence meta-gaming actions. Too often I see the following and it's poor gameplay IMO...
player1, "I search for traps [rolling] nat 20!"
GM, "You search the area around the door and discover no danger."
player1, "excellent, I open the door"
player2, remains silentvs.
player1, "I search for traps [rolling] crap, only an 8"
GM, "You search the area around the door and discover no danger."
player1, "oh well, I open..."
player2, "Wait! I search for traps"
GM, [eyeroll]
I see this a lot, even with experienced players that enjoy the role-play aspect of the game. Like someone else said, just because you don't meta-game a die result, doesn't mean everyone else wont also.
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Don, your list is starting to read like something out of the HackMaster Association rules...
Damn. Busted.
Actually, I'm sure some of these are 100% paraphrasing from that work. But I have not opened those tomes in over 8 years. I did my best not to post specific entries I remember from Hackmaster such as the 6" x 18" dice rolling space every player is entitled to at the table. And the guidelines for removing bad luck from a die or enhancing a die by rubbing it over signatures of famous gamers, etc.
32. Dice shall be placed with their highest number facing up when not in use to get them accustomed to resting in that position.
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That is an awesome list for dice use at the table, although in a four hour slot I won't have time to have fun with it.
I do not care for the dice rolling apps and I couldn't tell you which ones can be cheated with so I don't allow them at all. Technically the Core Rule Book states in a few areas such as making an attack that the player "rolls a d20" and then adds bla bla bla. But it does say roll, not press a button, so I feel better about my decision.
In my previous campaign, one of our players brought his brother in law to play. His brother in law lived with them because he has some learning disabilities and cannot live on his own. He loved the game and EVERY day he would practice rolling the d20's in his room, recording the results of each roll. After thousands of rolls, he developed his technique to roll a d20 that he was happy would work best. The rest of the players laughed about the time he wasted but to our surprise, he rolled more 20's than anyone there. One time another player stood up to make his attack and began shaking his dice in his hand as he was deciding on his move. Our new d20 expert commented "You are shaking that too much", got a scowl from that player who then tossed a "1" onto the table. We laughed about that still to this day.
As a GM if certain things bug you, like dice use, print out a few of these requests and pop them on your GM screen for all to enjoy. Then the players will be informed on what your expectations are.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Thou shall not yell out prior to another player rolls a d20 "As long as you don't roll a 1..."
GMs Shall not yell out prior to rolling a d20 "Hey don't worry I have to roll a 20 to hit you...oh...Ok don't worry I have to roll another 20 for it to be a crit..."
I had one game when most of the night I was 'calling' another player's die roll.
"That's going to be a five."
"And now you roll a one."
"You need a 15 or higher, so here comes the 14."
Kind of freaked us both out. Then he rolled the three natural 20's in a row...
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Still a habit I have when I GM and have been doing since 1979. *chuckle*
32. Dice shall be placed with their highest number facing up when not in use to get them accustomed to resting in that position.
I do this, too (both when playing and DMing). My lovely bride takes an inordinate amount of pleasure in messing them up when I'm not looking. :-)
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Rolling the die just makes some players Meta-game. Often more if the judge is rolling where you can't see it.
player1, "I search for traps, you roll the die"
GM, "You search the area around the door and discover no danger."
player1, "excellent, I open the door"
player2, "wait! Stop! but for you do that, I check too... I saw you smiling at that die Mr. Judge you!"
player3, "I take 20 on the check!"
player1, "you're in the back of the party - 30' away!"
player3, "I take 20 FROM 30' away - it's only -3!"
player1, "I thought we agreed I was the one..."
GM, rolls eyes
Your entire point in this situation is dependent on the player assuming that the GM is smiling in reference to a probable failed check. In situations like this, you either have the players roll initiaitive to see if P2 spoke up before P1 opened the door, or tell P2 to stop metagaming based on your face and have P1 open the door anyway.
Either way, Take 10 doesnt help. By taking 10 and getting a failing score, the GM could still smile, and the same thing occurs.
Basically, the answer is 'Expect table variation'.
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Actually, that's a neat idea, though I'd say the caveat is the GM gets to determine and line them up on "close calls".
Multiple Die rolling is a time saving factor, doing it this way wastes time.
Also I am not a fan of multiple die anyway, because I always forget which Die is for what attack, and you can't trust those pesky players!!!
Damn you pesky players get off my dice!
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I usually have 3-5 sets of dice in front of me when I play, so when I roll multi-attacks, I'm not always using the same colors every time. I just make a point of saying out loud to the group when I roll, "Red's the first attack, purple's the second" or whatever. As long as I call it right before I roll, it's fresh in everyone's head, including mine, so we all know what I'm doing.
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I don't like multiple dice rolling either, unless it is damage or something like that. It tends to cause too much confusion and gm's get no relief. I also roll perception checks for my players. I get their scores in advance and I find that it really cuts down on the metagaming of oh there must be something there, even though I only rolled a 1, because I was asked to roll for something.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I have very strong preferences of which d20's I like better than others, so I use one for every single-attack, save, skill check, etc. Then I have one that I like a lot less (and is a completely different color) that I use for my iterative attack. Works okay for me so far.
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My entire point in this situation is dependent on the players not getting a sec to even consider that the 'Spotter failed, and they might do better. (Normally, if it's me the Trapspotter beats everyone when he takes 10, by more than 10.)
Always taking 10, and covering it at the start of the game, means the Judge never rolls - no one does. The 'spotter sees what he sees, misses what he misses. All my PCs do this. There is never a "taking 10 and getting a failing score" - just a "you found a trap" or a "Boom!". The GM smiles (maybe) at the start of the adventure, and the other players can chime with requests to roll, but who would? Esp. when I shrug and say - "guess your leading then" and shove his figure out front, moving my PC to the back.
1) Why should another player get a second to consider that the spotter did bad and they might do better? Is it about the die roll? If so, that's metagaming, and it shouldnt be allowed. If it's not about the die roll, then why does it matter who rolled the die? If you are going to take 10, then fine, everyone knows the score. No one ever said, even in the cases where they suggested they would roll the check as the GM, that you couldnt take 10.
2)When I said 'take 10 and still get a failing score', I meant what you mean by 'Boom'. You take 10, the result isnt high enough to beat the DC. Most people would call that failing.
I roll attack rolls in groups occasionally, though I always make sure the GM is aware of which die is for which attack.
Also, whoever posted the 'I only pick up a players dice once rule' thing...thats just ridiculous. :P
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I have had to add; you can not use the count down die from Magic the Gathering game for your d20.How come?
Because they're spindown counters and not weighted or marked for randomness.
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Because they're spindown counters and not weighted or marked for randomness.I have had to add; you can not use the count down die from Magic the Gathering game for your d20.How come?
In other words, with all of the high numbers on one side of the die, a spindown die, in theory, makes it easier for a devoted die-cheat to achieve higher results more often.
(I only say "in theory" because I've read this many times, but never seen it attempted in practice.)
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Because they're spindown counters and not weighted or marked for randomness.I have had to add; you can not use the count down die from Magic the Gathering game for your d20.How come?In other words, with all of the high numbers on one side of the die, a spindown die, in theory, makes it easier for a devoted die-cheat to achieve higher results more often.
(I only say "in theory" because I've read this many times, but never seen it attempted in practice.)
See, that's just the thing: you'd have to be cheating anyway. Heck, it's probably even easier with d4's, but I've never seen anyone tell the wizard to roll d8's and halve them when he casts magic missile. So why hate on the die when it's obviously the player?
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I have a giganto spin down die that I got for Christmas, and for the life of me I couldn't understand why my gamers said it wasn't fair for me to use. They didn't explain that I could roll it wonky and get a better than expected result. Never even occured to me to try that. So, if you see me bring my spin down die... I may be a bit annoyed if you try to claim I'm going to cheat. That's just me though, not sure about those "other" people with them...
EDIT: Though, that may be me thinking that my position exempts me from the "He's going to try to cheat" line of thought. So, I'll probably leave it on my mantle. Since it doesn't roll that well to begin with. I like my dice to wander a bit just because it feels like a "Roll".
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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It's not even that -- it's that it's not really a legal die. It's just a twenty sided surface with numbers on it, ranging from 1-20. There's no assumption that the surfaces are the same size, or anything like that. At least with "random" twenty sided dice (normal d20s) we can assume that they're designed for rolling and generating a random number. Spindowns are not.
If I show up with a rock and paint some numbers on the side I can't roll it and expect people not to give me flak. Even if my rock has 20 sides and 20 numbers.
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I only pick up a players dice a single time. That may be a little rough for some players. I have been at games were the table stops to look for a players dice, I support a dice tray. Dice are magical in the way they move and bounce.
I have an uncommon ability to target Riding Dog's with nat 20's. I actually predicted the last power attack Nat 20.
I have a really uncommon ability to roll nat 1's with my Gunslinger. This is even made more uncommon since it is the only times I have Zero Grit. Resulting in Zero firearms :(.